I'm curious to know if there's any Golarion-specific lore surrounding eidolons. Are they all the same category of creature from some single portion of the Outer Sphere? Are they aspects of many different kinds of outsiders? Do some have their own agendas?
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Since it was introduced in the APG, which had mostly setting-neutral content (save for sidebars assigning Sub-Domains to Golarion gods and the like), I don't think that anything has been said officially on the matter.
It seems very likely that they would have some connection to the Proteans and the Maelstrom (Golarion's version of Limbo), particularly given the description of the Eidolon as having a semi-stable form (as justification for why they can't wear armor).
Their ability to be reconfigured every time the Summoner levels, as he respends their Evolution points, suggests that their true form, on whatever plane they come from, isn't necessarily anything like the form they assume when summoned to Golarion, fitting at least one definition of 'protean,' even if not necessarily being creatures of the Protean type.
Even if this was the starting point of the Summoner / Eidolon bond, conjurors calling up formless things from the Maelstrom and sculpting them into particular semi-stable forms on the material plane, it's possible, perhaps even inevitable, that other planes would get in on the action over the centuries, so that a modern' Summoner might tap into a celestial or abyssal or elemental entity, and not a chaos/protean/maelstrom native, so you could have a good summoner whose Eidolon is quite literally an 'angel' of sorts, being a formless lantern-archon-like creature on it's native plane of Elysium or Arcadia or whatever, and assuming a winged angelic warrior-woman form (biped) or a lammasu/shedu-like human-headed lion form (quadruped) or coutl (serpentine) form when he calls it forth from the celestial realms.
Coming from the outer planes, there's also the potentially disturbing possibility that they, like some outsiders, are crafted from mortal spirits that have passed on. Like 3.X petitioners, they might not recall their mortal lives (having passed the river styx and been purged of such, or some similar rationalization), or they might simply be formless stuff of the outer planes, forced into form and a shared sentience (built off of the Summoner's own psyche) during their being called forth.
A shared sentience, split off from the Summoner's own mind / personality, instead of actually having an individual sentience when dismissed, might be easier to deal with, as the Eidolon couldn't necessarily reveal any sort of information about whatever plane it comes from, or be used to deliver messages (or even goods and items, functioning as a cheap interplanar delivery service) to Elysium or the Abyss or wherever it 'goes' when it is dismissed.
On the other hand, if it has it's own personality / psyche, this could explain why it can have skills that the Summoner himself doesn't necessarily have, and why the Summoner can't 'unspend' skill points the way he 'unspends' Evolution points, as the Eidolon, once it's learned a skill, will always remember that skill, no matter what drastic changes are made to it's body via Evolution shuffling (or perhaps even it's mind, if the Summoner un-buys Ability Increases to Intelligence or Skilled Evolutions!).
All reasonable thoughts, thanks.
I have been pondering a "divine summoner" archetype, who'd explicitly be calling a tiny aspect of a god (or archfiend, or empyreal paragon)...
How does one go about becoming a summoner? I like how Pathfinder clarified this question with sorcerers' bloodlines, but with the summoner, they are presenting me with another conundrum that I can't really wrap my mind around.
One of my players is playing a summoner in my upcoming ROTRL game, but I can't explain how a Sandpoint native (all my characters are natives of Sandpoint and its environs) somehow has the power to summon a powerful, otherworldly being. Any ideas?
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One of my players is playing a summoner in my upcoming ROTRL game, but I can't explain how a Sandpoint native (all my characters are natives of Sandpoint and its environs) somehow has the power to summon a powerful, otherworldly being. Any ideas?
Since it casts spontaneously, like a Sorcerer or Oracle, it doesn't require any books or study, and would likely gain it's spells and class stuff from some otherworldly source.
While it's possible that the child may have found a book, or Thassilonian inscription, or magical candle, that when burned called his Eidolon for the first time to swear service 'in accordance to the ancient pact,' (whatever that meant!) the Summoner didn't have to call the Eidolon.
The Eidolon may have come to the Summoner, perhaps as a child, an 'imaginary friend' that made the bullies go away, and made that creepy drunk guy who was mean to mommy leave town. (Or, that's what mommy said, anyway. She didn't tell you that she had to scrub the evidence away and lie to the guard about what happened to the man who had threatened her, who done up and vanished, all mysterious like...)
As you got older, the friendly monster that lived in your closet (or under your bed, or whatever) whispered secrets to you, and told you that you had a special destiny. You practiced the funny words he told you to practice, and soon you could make things happen, like a magic man! Your blanket would dance, lifted by an invisible hand, and lights would appear, and disappear when your mother came to see what was going on.
Eventually, your friend showed himself, and he didn't look anything like you thought he would...
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Ah, the "imaginary friend" background. Classic.
Another way could be just as fun: Unwanted help.
Say the character is being threatened somehow, perhaps by the goblins that live around Sandpoint, and prays for help. A deity(not necessarily the one he prayed too) answers and sends the Eidolon to help, binding them together so the next time help is needed, it is already there.
For setting info with summoners i'd also look into the whole runelords thing as the unique rune each summoner and summon bears could be interlinked with them or their bloodlines.
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Sloth was conjuration, IIRC. A logical choice for an Eidolon summoner.
Perhaps the Eidolon originally only appeared when the character was very relaxed, almost on the cusp of sleep, and he convinced himself it was a waking dream.
Until it became a nightmare...
He tried to run, but the beast was too fast, and it wasn't until he stood and faced it, truly faced his fear, that he learned that he was the master of the beast.
Creative Director
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Of ALL the six new base classes introduced in the Advanced Player's Guide, the summoner's more or less the only one that doesn't really have a place in Golarion. We've actually had witches, alchemists, oracles, cavaliers, and inquisitors in Golarion even before the APG came out. Summoners, though... not so much.
Whether or not we'll eventually find a role for them in the Inner Sea... only time will tell.
(EDIT: There were no summoners in Thassilon, though; all seven of the runelords were specialist wizards.)
Of ALL the six new base classes introduced in the Advanced Player's Guide, the summoner's more or less the only one that doesn't really have a place in Golarion. We've actually had witches, alchemists, oracles, cavaliers, and inquisitors in Golarion even before the APG came out. Summoners, though... not so much.
Whether or not we'll eventually find a role for them in the Inner Sea... only time will tell.
I hope you do find a place for them; I'd love to see how the summoner fits into Golarion. And no summoners? What aboput all the conjurers in Cheliax and among Lamashtu's worshippers?
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Creative Director
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I hope you do find a place for them; I'd love to see how the summoner fits into Golarion. And no summoners? What aboput all the conjurers in Cheliax and among Lamashtu's worshippers?Of ALL the six new base classes introduced in the Advanced Player's Guide, the summoner's more or less the only one that doesn't really have a place in Golarion. We've actually had witches, alchemists, oracles, cavaliers, and inquisitors in Golarion even before the APG came out. Summoners, though... not so much.
Whether or not we'll eventually find a role for them in the Inner Sea... only time will tell.
Conjurers are specialist wizards. Lamashtu's worshipers are demon cultists.
Furthermore, the Chelaxian guys are diabolists and work with devils, while Lamashtu cultists work with demons. Neither of those are eidolons.
It's not the summoner, in other words, who has no pre-established role in Golarion... it's the eidolon who's the odd one out. (ALSO: Since a summoner HAS to have an eidolon, that basically means that guy not only needs 2 stat blocks, but 2 pieces of art—one for him, and one for the eidolon. Since they take up twice as much room as other classes... that presents a logistical reason why we don't put them into adventures nearly as often as the other APG classes.)
And finally... just because it's in an official Paizo rulebook doesn't mean it's officially in Golarion.
It could always be a new form of arcane magic previously generally unknown on Golarion. Hmmm, I am certain that somehwere in Golarion star system would be a place where summoners could be respected and well known arcanists.
It's not the summoner, in other words, who has no pre-established role in Golarion... it's the eidolon who's the odd one out. (ALSO: Since a summoner HAS to have an eidolon, that basically means that guy not only needs 2 stat blocks, but 2 pieces of art—one for him, and one for the eidolon. Since they take up twice as much room as other classes... that presents a logistical reason why we don't put them into adventures nearly as often as the other APG classes.)
And finally... just because it's in an official Paizo rulebook doesn't mean it's officially in Golarion.
Stat blocks I'll give you, but the iconic summoner comes with just the one picture with his eidolon in it.
...Seems a shame to leave these guys out. There must be something that can be done.
I like Set's idea that eidolons are actually petitioner souls, given form by the summoner -- it could be a step on the way to true celestial/fiend status for them.
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I like Set's idea that eidolons are actually petitioner souls, given form by the summoner -- it could be a step on the way to true celestial/fiend status for them.
Thanks.
There's plenty of precedent for otherworldly critters using different types than 'Outsider.' Fey, from the First World, have their own type. Elementals, from their own planes, have the Elemental type.
I'm cool with an Eidolon being a physical manifestation of;
1) a fragment of the Summoner's psyche, embodied from astral / dreamstuff.
2) an outer planes petitioner or soul, transformed in the same way that they can transform into Lantern Archons or Lemures, to serve the interests of the outer planes power that is patron to the Summoner.
3) an outer planes petitioner or soul, embodied by the Summoner's refusal to 'let them go,' taking the form of their beloved ancestor or favorite pet (which oddly grows larger and more surreal, as the Summoner increases in level. Mr. Tibbles was never nine feet long and couldn't breathe fire!)
4) an otherwise formless currently-unstatted form of Protean, from the Maelstrom, exploring the static world beyond the Maelstrom, like some sort of 'deep sea explorer' or 'astronaut,' wearing the form of the Eidolon like some sort of life-support exo-suit to protect it from the unchanging and static reality of Golarion.
5) some First World dream/glamor made flesh, fuzzy around the edges, all bright colors and excitable emotions, willing to come across the veil to play with it's 'friend' and liven things up in the boring nofun greyscale world of the too-serious changeless folk.
6) some lower category of outsider, unrelated to petitioners / souls, that is formless and inchaote, the raw stuff of the outer planes. Good summoners draw from the upper planes, chaotic ones from the maelstrrom, the eidolons of lawful ones whirl together like clockwork and motes of light from mechanus, and from the lower planes, something qlippothic and nameless seeps up to answer the cry of the evil summoner, taking it's form from his imaginings, as it has none of it's own, being more psycho-reactive than sentient.
7) genie-crafted servants to those who have earned their blessing, and the descendents of those who may have not the slightest idea that a distant ancestor once did a favor for an Efreeta dowager, who rewarded her loyal disciple on Golarion with a tattoo of flame on his forehead, that allowed him to call forth a mighty fiery steed. It's been five generations, and the mark doesn't appear on every family members head, but when it does, that child will find that the ancient pact holds true, and that a bearded brazen-skinned warrior, or a fine black-skinned steed steed, or iron-toothed hunting hound, or serpent of coiling smokeless fire, will come when he calls, from the stables and stockyards of his mistresses menagerie in the City of Brass.
I kinda prefer that there's no one origin locked down in Golarion, and that the class isn't limited by such.
It frees up the player and the GM to work together to come up with something creative.
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Creative Director
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Stat blocks I'll give you, but the iconic summoner comes with just the one picture with his eidolon in it.
...Seems a shame to leave these guys out. There must be something that can be done.
I like Set's idea that eidolons are actually petitioner souls, given form by the summoner -- it could be a step on the way to true celestial/fiend status for them.
True... but look through any of our other products. Pictures where we have two figures in one static shot like that without a background are really rare. Because it's not really fair to the artist to say "Paint a picture of 2 characters" and then pay him the same rate we'd pay him for one character—it's more complicated and tough to paint 2 people than it is to paint 1 person, even if both pictures take up the same area on a page, so we don't normally do it.
Furthermore, the fact that a summoner's eidolon is such a blank canvas makes it very difficult to build any sort of "feel" for the class. They're very much the "everything plus the kitchen sink" monster, since they can literally be anything or look like anything. It's not easy to give something an overall theme (be it the monsters of a world or the decorations of a room or whatever) when your canvas is so limitless.
Frankly, since eidolons didn't have a pre-built niche to fill in Golarion's multiverse, and since they're so varied that they can't really be thought of to come from any one location, that makes them really hard to fit into the world. Simply saying "they come from EVERYWHERE" doesn't work for me either, since if they come from everywhere, it would make sense that they could BE everywhere... and that means we should have heard about eidolons already.
I'm much more comfortable with them being a lot rarer and, frankly, almost unique in Golarion. To the extent that the majority of them are player characters. That doesn't mean that some day an author might not come up with a cool way to use a summoner in something they're writing for us... but so far, that hasn't really happened in any extensive way.
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Might I suggest a theory?
Eidolons are new to Golorian, yes? But there is the connection to the First World, where magic is weird and crazy monsters roam free.
Now, if enough people are exposed to the connected areas, and they have the right 'kindling'(to make this a fire metaphor), then the 'spark'(First World) can light the 'kindling' and the resulting inferno appears as the Eidolon.
A person + a catalyst = a Summoner
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And finally... just because it's in an official Paizo rulebook doesn't mean it's officially in Golarion.
I have to say I hope you reconsider this position. You've made some very good points about why it's more difficult to regularly incorporate Summoners into APs, but as a certified Golarion junkie, I find it disconcerting that additional rulesets are added to the game without being incorporated into the setting.
My investment in Pathfinder is primarily in the fluff and the adventures, with additional rulebooks purchased to give the players more options to have fun with and because of the high probability that these rules will be incorporated into the APs, modules, and so on. If these additional rules are not integrated into the setting material, their value to me as a consumer decreases significantly.
I'm not demanding that we see summoners appear regularly in future products, but I would appreciate their recognition as part of Golarion canon.
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Creative Director
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And finally... just because it's in an official Paizo rulebook doesn't mean it's officially in Golarion.I have to say I hope you reconsider this position. You've made some very good points about why it's more difficult to regularly incorporate Summoners into APs, but as a certified Golarion junkie, I find it disconcerting that additional rulesets are added to the game without being incorporated into the setting.
My investment in Pathfinder is primarily in the fluff and the adventures, with additional rulebooks purchased to give the players more options to have fun with and because of the high probability that these rules will be incorporated into the APs, modules, and so on. If these additional rules are not integrated into the setting material, their value to me as a consumer decreases significantly.
I'm not demanding that we see summoners appear regularly in future products, but I would appreciate their recognition as part of Golarion canon.
When (not if... WHEN) an author comes up with a cool role for a summoner or a gunslinger in an adventure or product, I'll put it in. Likewise, when I think up a cool role for one, I'll order it by putting it into a book outline. In fact, having just outlined a book coming out later this year that hasn't yet been announced, I asked a few authors SPECIFICALLY to build some summoner stuff for Golarion.
Still doesn't mean everything in a Paizo rule book is in Golarion. But perhaps a more accurate way to say that is that until someone comes up with a good idea they're not in there. But once they are, they're in!
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Since Golarion gets "more magic" as you go further south, it seems to me that Summoners are probably treated like sciopods or blemmyae in the Inner Sea, and ultimately hail from one of the unexplored-in-the-material lands. Adventurers and foreigners tell stories about them, but they're something from a faraway land that doesn't really have much relevance to the complex, no-nonsense world of jet-powered apes and time travel that is Avistan and northern Garund.
And because every Eidolon is different, only those significantly in the know regarding arcane casters are going to even know there's such a thing as a capital-S Summoner, and not just a highly focused small-s summoner Conjuration specialist wizard with a variant planar ally spell. Most folks without Knowledge: Arcane or that don't adventure with a chatty wizard aren't even going to know THAT much. He's just another guy who casts spells and doesn't talk to the gods.
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+1 to not locking the Eidolons to a single origin in Golarion. Even if it makes them less common, I'd rather see them used to represent a variance of character ideas(guy with a blood-oath with some genie, lady with a manifesting imaginary friend, etc.) in adventures rather than be fixed into one set of expectations.
Since Golarion gets "more magic" as you go further south, it seems to me that Summoners are probably treated like sciopods or blemmyae in the Inner Sea, and ultimately hail from one of the unexplored-in-the-material lands.
Oooh. Sarusan! It's dreamtimeywimey and not all there all the time!
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The First World idea is definitely a great one. After all, if the laws of reality there are bendable, and nothing is truly set beyond what the most powerful creatures dictate, it would make a certain amount of sense that people could tap into these prototypes and shape them to their own will.
A couple other possibilities occur to me:
1. Eidolons are natives of the Dimension of Dreams, whose form change on a regular basis as they're caught up in the night time excursions of mortals. A summoner could tap into one of these spirits in a dream and bring the figment across to the material plane.
2. For a more sinister twist, Eidolons are bound Moonbeasts from Leng. Described by H.P. Lovecraft in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, "Great greyish-white slippery things which could expand and contract at will, and whose principal shape — though it often changed — was that of a sort of toad without any eyes, but with a curious vibrating mass of short pink tentacles on the end of its blunt, vague snout.” Notice the bit about how they can expand and contract at will, and how their principal shapes often changed. In fact, I might stat up a Man from Leng with a Moonbeast Eidolon.
Yes, I know. I'm obsessed with Moonbeasts.
The First World idea is definitely a great one. After all, if the laws of reality there are bendable, and nothing is truly set beyond what the most powerful creatures dictate, it would make a certain amount of sense that people could tap into these prototypes and shape them to their own will.
A couple other possibilities occur to me:
1. Eidolons are natives of the Dimension of Dreams, whose form change on a regular basis as they're caught up in the night time excursions of mortals. A summoner could tap into one of these spirits in a dream and bring the figment across to the material plane.
2. For a more sinister twist, Eidolons are bound Moonbeasts from Leng. Described by H.P. Lovecraft in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, "Great greyish-white slippery things which could expand and contract at will, and whose principal shape — though it often changed — was that of a sort of toad without any eyes, but with a curious vibrating mass of short pink tentacles on the end of its blunt, vague snout.” Notice the bit about how they can expand and contract at will, and how their principal shapes often changed. In fact, I might stat up a Man from Leng with a Moonbeast Eidolon.
Yes, I know. I'm obsessed with Moonbeasts.
Meow. Kill Moonbeasts! Mearrrow!
Still doesn't mean everything in a Paizo rule book is in Golarion. But perhaps a more accurate way to say that is that until someone comes up with a good idea they're not in there. But once they are, they're in!
This still concerns me though.
Yes,not everything in a Paizo rule book is in Golarion. But when Paizo publish more and more books there might be more and more "unique" and/or "strange" cases. If you don't put them in then people start to complain those things"do not gain enough support".I know Paizo folks spend a lot of time,love and effort into this setting and I really, REALLY don't want to see the world got nuked.:(