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From another thread, in which this post would be off-topic:
... 108d6+12d4+9 damage if his DM lets his magic missiles apply multiple times. Or 54d6+36d6 if his DM doesn't and he just quickens scorching rays instead. You know. Whatever.
I don't even know if a wizard can have 315 (scorching ray) or 408 (magic missile) hit points. That's assuming they all hit-- he could probably miss 3 or 4 and still one-shot explode him.
I'm confused. What's this about sneak attack applying multiple times to the same action against a single target? This definitely did not work in 3.5; I read the Sage columns throughly every month, this came up periodically, and the answer was always the same. I know this isn't 3.5, but is this how the rules actually work now?
Another question: how does the Arcane Trickster (or anyone) get sneak attack damage on magic missile at all? There's no attack roll, the missiles auto-hit. If the spell can't crit, how can it sneak-attack?
1) Sneak Attacks and Volleys: The sage certainly ruled on this one, but I always felt it was an incredibly stupid ruling. Attacking with magic has always been a poor option once you pass 4-7th level, and sneak attack was a great way to make it somewhat viable. Regardless of my personal views, the volley ruling in 3.5 wasn't actually core- it was a digital ruling. Because PF =/= 3.5 there isn't a ruling on why this wouldn't work, since sneak attack rules state that you only get sneak attack when you qualify & have to make an attack roll.
Many players seem to grandfather in the old ruling, but choosing to ignore it is just as valid because it belongs to a previous edition. It should be noted that you can't maximize sneak attack damage, since it's a class feature and not part of the spell.
2) Sneak Attacking with auto-hit spells: The capstone ability of the Arcane Trickster allows her to add her sneak attack damage to any spell that causes hit point damage if her target is flatfooted. A strict reading of the text would imply that you only got to add it to each target once, not per missile.
Hope that illuminates it a bit for you.
Edit: Ninja'd! James, you are a continual thorn in my side. :)
Please note however somethings don't get the sneak attack damage still -- manyshot for example specifically prohibits extra damage on the second hit.
The basic rule of thumb is it requires an attack roll to get sneak attack damage, and you only get sneak attack damage once per attack roll.
Scorching ray has up to 3 attack rolls and could deal sneak attack up to three times.
Manyshot allows one attack roll for two hits, and only deals sneak attack damage once.
*General rules -- specific cases can and will be different, yada yada yada*
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I think what it comes down to is this. The Rogue only gets sneak attack damage when he rolls to strike (which leaves Magic Missile out) and he has to be able to see the target to strike a vital organ. So, even if you allowed Magic Missile, it still wouldn't work because you don't direct magic missile. You tell it a target and the missiles fly to hit the target.
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See, this is why I posted the question.
1) we know how it worked in 3.5 - Sneak Attack applied once per "discrete action" - scorching ray created multiple rays, but the Sneak Attack dice applied to only one of them. The rules were consistent on this - Sneak Attack damage only applied once to spells effected by the Split Ray metamagic feat, other "damage adders" only applied to a single ray/missile/energy ball/etc, and so on.
2) Using Rapid Shot, two-Weapon Fighting, or other full-round attack actions as examples does not adequately explain things, as Sneak Attack applied to each of those back in 3.5 (and earlier), but not to "volley attacks".
3) Pathfinder is not the same as 3.5, but it is very strongly based on 3.5; using rules from the previous edition - especially ones that address niche conflicts - is generally a good way to go.
4) In 3.5, Prestige Classes were pretty much assumed, and there were some truely rediculous things that would happen if Sneak Attack applied to each attack in a volley. Pathfinder does not, generally speaking, have this problem, so allowing/not restricting it does not, on the surface, seem like a problem.
5) We do not know how things are supposed to work now .We can guess, and provide very detailed justifications for our opinions, but we don't know.
so, will applying Sneak Attack to each hit in a volley break the game? Will restricting Sneak Attack to only applying once per volley cripple "normal" (non-optimized, which is what most people play) character builds?
Setting aside "what the designers intended" and "how things used to work", the real question is: Keeping things Pathfinder Only, how bad do things get if we toss out the volley "house"rule?
I think what it comes down to is this. The Rogue only gets sneak attack damage when he rolls to strike (which leaves Magic Missile out) and he has to be able to see the target to strike a vital organ. So, even if you allowed Magic Missile, it still wouldn't work because you don't direct magic missile. You tell it a target and the missiles fly to hit the target.
Unless you have the arcane trickster's capstone ability.
Also note the shadow strike feat in the APG which can allow you to sneak attack things you normally couldn't.
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I think what it comes down to is this. The Rogue only gets sneak attack damage when he rolls to strike (which leaves Magic Missile out) and he has to be able to see the target to strike a vital organ. So, even if you allowed Magic Missile, it still wouldn't work because you don't direct magic missile. You tell it a target and the missiles fly to hit the target.Unless you have the arcane trickster's capstone ability.
Also note the shadow strike feat in the APG which can allow you to sneak attack things you normally couldn't.
Well, yes, but the Sneak Spell ability will only allow you to do that if you act before the target in the first round.
The Shadow Strike would have to be a GMs call. It says you can strike targets that have concealment. But, again, in the case of Magic Missile, is that good enough to allow you to strike a vital organ? Do you direct where on the body the Magic Missiles hit or do the missiles guide themselves and just hit the target. I would have to say the Missiles do their own thing, so you wouldn't be able to do sneak damage. But, again, that's an individual GMs call, since there is now RAW on it.
Well, yes, but the Sneak Spell ability will only allow you to do that if you act before the target in the first round.
Breaking the quote up to handle the parts of it individually:
First off -- you do not only get it on the first round -- you get it any time the targets are denied their dex bonus -- so if you are invisible and they can't see you then you would get it again. With mind blank and greater invisibility you would be able to sneak attack with up to two spells a round every round.
The Shadow Strike would have to be a GMs call. It says you can strike targets that have concealment. But, again, in the case of Magic Missile, is that good enough to allow you to strike a vital organ? Do you direct where on the body the Magic Missiles hit or do the missiles guide themselves and just hit the target. I would have to say the Missiles do their own thing, so you wouldn't be able to do sneak damage. But, again, that's an individual GMs call, since there is now RAW on it.
No it's not a GM's call -- shadow strike won't help magic missile at all. You are confusing what I am saying (and I'm probably not typing clearly) -- magic missile doesn't allow an attack roll and can't normally be enhanced with sneak attack damage.
I mention shadow strike only for the sake of thoroughness since it allows you to sneak attack someone with concealment. Thoroughness is the same reason I mentioned sneak spell with regards to magic missile.
As to everything else: see my first post.
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Surprise Spell states "At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed."
Flat footed states "Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity."
So, no, you can only use Surprise Spell during the first round of combat before the target has attacked (sort of like Surprise Round).
Surprise Spell states "At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed."
Flat footed states "Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity."
So, no, you can only use Surprise Spell during the first round of combat before the target has attacked (sort of like Surprise Round).
You are good until that last bit -- if you can't see your target you are flat footed and denied your dex meaning this ability would work with invisibility
IF the targets are flat-footed means any time the targets are flat footed -- if you are invisible and they don't have the means to see you they are flat footed against what you do.
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Surprise Spell states "At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed."
Flat footed states "Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity."
So, no, you can only use Surprise Spell during the first round of combat before the target has attacked (sort of like Surprise Round).
You are good until that last bit -- if you can't see your target you are flat footed and denied your dex meaning this ability would work with invisibility
IF the targets are flat-footed means any time the targets are flat footed -- if you are invisible and they don't have the means to see you they are flat footed against what you do.
I didnt say there were not situations where you cannot have the flat footed effect. I was responding to your "you get it any time the targets are denied their dex bonus". Which is not true. There are instances where you are denied your dex bonus, but not considered "flat footed".
I didnt say there were not situations where you cannot have the flat footed effect. I was responding to your "you get it any time the targets are denied their dex bonus". Which is not true. There are instances where you are denied your dex bonus, but not considered "flat footed".
Name one?
Either way there is a huge difference from what you are suggesting was the point and what you said:
So, no, you can only use Surprise Spell during the first round of combat before the target has attacked (sort of like Surprise Round).
Which is still not true.
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I didnt say there were not situations where you cannot have the flat footed effect. I was responding to your "you get it any time the targets are denied their dex bonus". Which is not true. There are instances where you are denied your dex bonus, but not considered "flat footed".Name one?
Either way there is a huge difference from what you are suggesting was the point and what you said:
So, no, you can only use Surprise Spell during the first round of combat before the target has attacked (sort of like Surprise Round).Which is still not true.
Well the first one that comes to mind is climbing: "While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)." But, it doesn't state that you are flat footed.
And there will always be exceptions to the rules. But, in normal circumstances, with no other powers or effects causing "flat foot", you can only use Sneak Spell in a round before the target has acted (should have said acted and not attacked). Which would be the Surprise Round and Round 1. So I was wrong in saying "only", it should say "normally".
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And there will always be exceptions to the rules. But, in normal circumstances, with no other powers or effects causing "flat foot", you can only use Sneak Spell in a round before the target has acted (should have said acted and not attacked). Which would be the Surprise Round and Round 1. So I was wrong in saying "only", it should say "normally".
Don't forget!:
At 9th level, an arcane trickster can become invisible, as if under the effects of greater invisibility, as a free action. She can remain invisible for a number of rounds per day equal to her arcane trickster level. Her caster level for this effect is equal to her caster level. These rounds need not be consecutive.So it should say "occasionally".
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With the above arguments aside, I don't see an issue with allowing sneak attack to occur once per attack roll. On spells that don't require attack rolls I would say that sneak attack can occur once per target.
I make this judgment based solely on pathfinder official material, so here's my logic:
There seem to be about 3 different styles of Arcane Trickster. The first is the sneak attacking caster: Wizard 7 / Rogue 3 / AT 10. The second is the spellcasting rogue: Rogue 7 / Wizard 3 / AT 10. And the third is the true hybrid: Wizard 5 / Rogue 5 / AT 10. These are obviously simplified, ignoring options that include additional prestige classes. But, all in all, they net us a total of 7d6 and 9d6 sneak attack- so let's go with 8d6 for an average.
The arcane trickster is good at a couple of things: Being sneaky (Fey Sorcerers & Illusionists are better), casting spells (Every full caster is better), dealing precision damage (rogues are better), and having skill points (roughly on par with a bard, rogues do it better). The class pushes the focus on precision damage when applied to spells, so let's make that our focus in analysis.
With scorching ray, a 2nd level spell, the AT can deal 4d6+8d6 fire damage 3 times to 1-3 enemies. This is sort of seen as the ultimate AT spell, since it's low level and requires attack rolls. Being only 2nd level, it's easy to quicken (6th level). This will cause an average damage of roughly 126 damage if all three hit, and they likely will. That's pretty classy for a 2nd level spell, and it allows the AT to essentially "go nova." Throw in a quickened spell and you've got double that, an average of 252 damage every round- snazzy!
Now this is at level 20, so that 252 won't kill the big scary things, but it will make them take notice of you. Fire is unfortunately a common resistance, and they'll get their resistance x3 against you, but it's not hard to change the element with a cheap +1 metamagic. You'll also struggle with spell resistance because you're anywhere between 3 and 7 levels behind a regular caster, and feats won't close that gap.
Past that, the class doesn't do very much that's impressive. Adding sneak attack to your area of effect blasts makes them arguably more useful, but AoE spells are easy to save against and are often hard to lay down. With the addition of intense spell you can consistently toss out 15d6 fireballs and 20d6 cones of cold, but even with your sneak attack you're going to struggle. 98 damage from a cone of cold is startling, but doesn't kill many/any enemies at 20th level.
Even the awesome Magic Missile, cast against 5 separate targets, does an inescapable 31 damage to each of them. Woo. It's only fun when you start adding sneak attack damage to spells like Ennervate- where you're getting negative levels and the bonus negative energy damage is just gravy.
AT faces a lot of issues, though. MAD is top of the list, but more importantly it doesn't benefit from a lot of the traditionally awesome aspects of offense. First, critical hits don't multiply precision damage. Second, precision damage is difficult to set up until higher levels, and sometimes downright dangerous. Third, spell resistance (which is eye-rollingly common at higher levels) will always be a bane to the AT. Fourth, and perhaps most importantly, sneak attack damage is NOT modified by metamagic. A lot of the terrifying numbers we see are people maximizing sneak attack which is just an absurd idea.
So all in all, ignoring the Volley rules are just fine in my book. It allows the AT to play as a proper blaster that doesn't become obsolete by ~6th level. It doesn't eclipse any particular class in ability, has a variety of setbacks, and fills a very specific niche. I just don't see the problem (or the appeal).
Just my opinion, though.