I cam across this while messing around with an arcane trickster build for somone else in my gaming group.
its end game like 18th level but still it seems quite strong.
Rogue 7 wiz 3 trickster 10
9d6 sneak attack, 6th level wiz spells
and what you ask in the 6th level spell list makes it awsome ?
Antimagic field :)
Your immune to anything under an Ex ability and your sneak attacks are almost as good as a full rogue, so you can dish out the pain esp to pesky NPC casters. and being roguish your already suited for surviving without decent armor.
obvisouly when there's no magic threat you go with sneak attack spells or self buffing and control spells to setup sneak melee opporunities.
I cam across this while messing around with an arcane trickster build for somone else in my gaming group.
its end game like 18th level but still it seems quite strong.
Rogue 7 wiz 3 trickster 10
9d6 sneak attack, 6th level wiz spells
and what you ask in the 6th level spell list makes it awsome ?
Antimagic field :)
Here's another build that does this better:
Rogue 20.
Read a scroll. You have full sneak dice, talents that add on to this, your BAB isn't tanked completely, you have more hps, better stats and in the field you are in all ways better than an Arcane Trickster.
Likewise Fighter 20 does well reading this scroll.
-James
I assume both your rogue 20 and fighter 20 have an INT of 16 through a headband ?
I'm also going to assume they've got 20 ranks in UMD with a bonus of maybe +27 for the rogue and +24 for the fighter since neither would have much base CHA either.so a headband of +6 INT CHA for 90'000 gold (not exactly an item high on either the fighter or rogue list of priority magic items)
DC to use a scroll = 20+ caster level = 20+11 = 31DC
Scroll cost 1650 gold
possible but far from a 100% success rate using a scroll. plus your fighter is giving up 20 ranks of skills with his measly quota to begin with and is sinking alot of gold into items which don't really help the rest of his class abilities.
The worst part is I'm pretty sure that the wizard could club the rogue to death. Their ACs are likely similar, but the rogue is giving up his most powerful abilities to negate the wizard-- he could just greater invis and blow him up with a bunch of scorching rays or magic missiles. 108d6+12d4+9 damage if his DM lets his magic missiles apply multiple times. Or 54d6+36d6 if his DM doesn't and he just quickens scorching rays instead. You know. Whatever.
I don't even know if a wizard can have 315 (scorching ray) or 408 (magic missile) hit points. That's assuming they all hit-- he could probably miss 3 or 4 and still one-shot explode him.
The worst part is I'm pretty sure that the wizard could club the rogue to death. Their ACs are likely similar, but the rogue is giving up his most powerful abilities to negate the wizard-- he could just greater invis and blow him up with a bunch of scorching rays or magic missiles. 108d6+12d4+9 damage if his DM lets his magic missiles apply multiple times. Or 54d6+36d6 if his DM doesn't and he just quickens scorching rays instead. You know. Whatever.
I don't even know if a wizard can have 315 (scorching ray) or 408 (magic missile) hit points. That's assuming they all hit-- he could probably miss 3 or 4 and still one-shot explode him.
how are said missiles and rays getting to the rogue through the AM field ?
how are said missiles and rays getting to the rogue through the AM field ?The worst part is I'm pretty sure that the wizard could club the rogue to death. Their ACs are likely similar, but the rogue is giving up his most powerful abilities to negate the wizard-- he could just greater invis and blow him up with a bunch of scorching rays or magic missiles. 108d6+12d4+9 damage if his DM lets his magic missiles apply multiple times. Or 54d6+36d6 if his DM doesn't and he just quickens scorching rays instead. You know. Whatever.
I don't even know if a wizard can have 315 (scorching ray) or 408 (magic missile) hit points. That's assuming they all hit-- he could probably miss 3 or 4 and still one-shot explode him.
The rogue is shooting the wizard.
Apologies if that's not clear.
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I might be in the minority here, but in general I think one is probably better off continuing a multi-class build than going with a prestige class. I'm of the opinion that a rogue 10/wizard 10 would end up having more going for it than a rogue x/wizard y/arcane trickster 10.
When it comes to spells the arcane trickster is partially nerfed in that it gets only some of the benefits of going up a level in a spell casting class. When it comes to BAB the arcane trickster nerfs the rogue end by getting a wizard's BAB.
For instance, a rogue 5/wizard 5 - 10th level character would have a BAB of +5. If one were to add 10 levels of arcane trickster to that the character would have a BAB of +10/+5. Simply continuing the Rogue/Wizard progression would give the character a BAB of +12/+7/+2.
On the wizard end, assuming the wizard is a specialist, then once he switches to arcane trickster those levels don't count for his being able to use the higher level powers of his chosen school that come in at 8th level.
A rogue 10/wizard 10 is a full wizard 10. He could get an improved familiar (Homunculus) potentially available at wizard level 7 and have it manipulate objects that weighed up to 26 lbs all day long using any skill that the character possessed at a range of up to a mile. If the wizard had gone the bonded item route instead of using a familiar the wizard could act as if he had the "forge ring" item creation feat at wizard level 9 for purposes of adding additional magic abilities to it. A ring of telekinesis can manipulate a lot more weight than the arcane trickster capabilities.
how are said missiles and rays getting to the rogue through the AM field ?The worst part is I'm pretty sure that the wizard could club the rogue to death. Their ACs are likely similar, but the rogue is giving up his most powerful abilities to negate the wizard-- he could just greater invis and blow him up with a bunch of scorching rays or magic missiles. 108d6+12d4+9 damage if his DM lets his magic missiles apply multiple times. Or 54d6+36d6 if his DM doesn't and he just quickens scorching rays instead. You know. Whatever.
I don't even know if a wizard can have 315 (scorching ray) or 408 (magic missile) hit points. That's assuming they all hit-- he could probably miss 3 or 4 and still one-shot explode him.
The rogue is shooting the wizard.
Apologies if that's not clear.
sorry
what's not clear is how this is relating to the trickster, your talking about a full rogue vs full wizard ?
are you trying to say a pure rogue is more effective against a pure wizard compared to a trickster even without AM field ?
I might be in the minority here, but in general I think one is probably better off continuing a multi-class build than going with a prestige class. I'm of the opinion that a rogue 10/wizard 10 would end up having more going for it than a rogue x/wizard y/arcane trickster 10.
When it comes to spells the arcane trickster is partially nerfed in that it gets only some of the benefits of going up a level in a spell casting class. When it comes to BAB the arcane trickster nerfs the rogue end by getting a wizard's BAB.
For instance, a rogue 5/wizard 5 - 10th level character would have a BAB of +5. If one were to add 10 levels of arcane trickster to that the character would have a BAB of +10/+5. Simply continuing the Rogue/Wizard progression would give the character a BAB of +12/+7/+2.
On the wizard end, assuming the wizard is a specialist, then once he switches to arcane trickster those levels don't count for his being able to use the higher level powers of his chosen school that come in at 8th level.
A rogue 10/wizard 10 is a full wizard 10. He could get an improved familiar (Homunculus) potentially available at wizard level 7 and have it manipulate objects that weighed up to 26 lbs all day long using any skill that the character possessed at a range of up to a mile. If the wizard had gone the bonded item route instead of using a familiar the wizard could act as if he had the "forge ring" item creation feat at wizard level 9 for purposes of adding additional magic abilities to it. A ring of telekinesis can manipulate a lot more weight than the arcane trickster capabilities.
Full wizard 10 is one level short of 6th level spells and thus no antimagic field.
although if you simply saying a rogue 10 wiz 10 is mechanically better, then sure, no doubt it is, but it still can't do what the trickster is doing.
If you go for arcane trickster you should surrender all pretense of being good at martial combat, and welcome your new friends; (ranged) touch spells, and later AoE Sneak Attacks.
The ideal build for a trickster in my mind is Rogue3/Wizard3/AT10 then going wizard the rest of the way. Yes, you lose out on some rogue tricks and whatnot, but you're casting lv9 spells, which allows you to meta your ranged touch spells until they actually do damage comparable to level.
You can still easily max out the useful rogue skills and get the Trap-Spotting talent, and compensate for the lack of Trapfinding bonuses with familiar alertness, spells and magical items you now can craft. And if you don't want to focus on traps, you can summon some creature and have it run through suspicious rooms.
If you go for arcane trickster you should surrender all pretense of being good at martial combat, and welcome your new friends; (ranged) touch spells, and later AoE Sneak Attacks.
The ideal build for a trickster in my mind is Rogue3/Wizard3/AT10 then going wizard the rest of the way. Yes, you lose out on some rogue tricks and whatnot, but you're casting lv9 spells, which allows you to meta your ranged touch spells until they actually do damage comparable to level.
You can still easily max out the useful rogue skills and get the Trap-Spotting talent, and compensate for the lack of Trapfinding bonuses with familiar alertness, spells and magical items you now can craft. And if you don't want to focus on traps, you can summon some creature and have it run through suspicious rooms.
this isn't for me its for another guy in the group who dosent optimise or plan that much
at the moment he's rogue 7, he about to shift into sorc and odds are he'll end up sorc 4 and then trickster 9, and yes that does mean no capstone trickster
hence i'm trying to make the most out of what he's doing ;)
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One thing that is not clear to me from going through the Core Rulebook is how the Arcane Trickster's "Impromptu Sneak Attack" stacks up against the rogue class features of "Uncanny Dodge" and "Improved Uncanny Dodge". Especially given that while Arcane Trickster levels add to sneak attack damage, they do not count as "rogue" levels for purposes of determining whether or not a character with improved uncanny dodge can be flanked. If I had to rule on this sort of thing I'd be tempted to rule in favor of the character that had more rogue levels, but then I'm slightly biased against prestige classes anyway. Other people's mileage may vary, and I'm not sure what the "official" position would be.
As far as the arcane trickster's "surprise spells" ability is concerned, obviously that won't work within an anti-magic field. The arcane trickster could still be invisible within an anti-magic field that he cast, as the "Invisible Thief" ability is a supernatural ability. But he couldn't cast spells out through the anti-magic effect. He would have to close to melee or use missile weapons. I will note in passing though that characters/beings with blindsight would be able to see right through the invisibility effect. Wizard (Necromancers) get a blindsight effect at level 8 which is a supernatural ability that would not be shut down by an antimagic field.
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Supernaturals don't work in AMF.
I don't get the point of this thread, if you really wanted AMF to be your gimmick I'd think you'd want to stay as far away from an arcane class combo as possible.
After a quick check I have to concede your point. Regardless, I'm NOT the one pushing the arcane trickster build. I'd argue that either a rogue 20 with maxed out UMD or a rogue 10/wizard 10 would be better overall.
However, after much going back and forth with the rules and not a little hemming and hawing, I think that I'd have to give the "Impromptu Sneak Attack" the nod over uncanny dodge. To save everybody a long dissertation I'll just say that it came down to a very detailed reading of the rules sections in question, along with the understanding that interpreting things the other way would result in a character that was seriously gimped going up against rogues, which would be one of the things one would arguably want an arcane trickster build for. Besides, even with a decision in the arcane trickster's favor, it's still a stunt he can pull only twice a day.
Supernaturals don't work in AMF.
I don't get the point of this thread, if you really wanted AMF to be your gimmick I'd think you'd want to stay as far away from an arcane class combo as possible.
kinda hard to stay away from it if you want it on your spell list.
you can get it via divine of course but then its and 8th level spell.
I'm not a fan of the "I've got a scroll + UMD , I can do anything." approch
Make it a wizard 4/assassin 1/arcane trickster X and get into the prestige class a level early. Now that's a cool little combo.
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"this isn't for me its for another guy in the group who dosent optimise or plan that much
at the moment he's rogue 7, he about to shift into sorc and odds are he'll end up sorc 4 and then trickster 9, and yes that does mean no capstone trickster
hence i'm trying to make the most out of what he's doing"
I was going to say that i really like the Arcane Trickster but the main problem with it is that at some point you have to be at rogue 3 / wiz 3 while everybody else (including enemies) is something 6. And thats a really bad place to be.
But after reading your friend's build im just sad for the guy.
Make it a wizard 4/assassin 1/arcane trickster X and get into the prestige class a level early. Now that's a cool little combo.
You forgot the rogue level.
Also can be done as wizard 5/assassin 1/master spy1/ arcane trickster x
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Supernaturals don't work in AMF.
I don't get the point of this thread, if you really wanted AMF to be your gimmick I'd think you'd want to stay as far away from an arcane class combo as possible.
kinda hard to stay away from it if you want it on your spell list.
you can get it via divine of course but then its and 8th level spell.
I'm not a fan of the "I've got a scroll + UMD , I can do anything." approch
The only enemy this is particularly great against is a wizard or group of them that you are able to get right up cozy with and who isn't going to be able to just walk out of the circle and dimension door out.
It makes a LOT more sense to use UMD and a one shot scroll for fairly a uncommon situation like that than it does to invest 10 levels of a class whose abilities are largely obsoleted by that same act.
The rogue/ ranger with UMD can keep a scroll around *just in case* it comes up. It's not a matter of being a 'fan' of a concept, it just makes a lot more sense.
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Make it a wizard 4/assassin 1/arcane trickster X and get into the prestige class a level early. Now that's a cool little combo.You forgot the rogue level.
Also can be done as wizard 5/assassin 1/master spy1/ arcane trickster x
Ooo, I hadn't noticed the master spy got 1d6 SA at first level also, now non-evil characters can use the PrC hack to get into Arcane Trickster, that makes it slightly less gimpy.
Edit: But your Wizard 5/ assassin 1/ master spy build won't work because Master Spy requires 7 ranks of bluff. You can go Wizard 6/ Rogue 1/ Master 1. I kind of like that though because it puts sorcerers on the same footing :D
Ooo, I hadn't noticed the master spy got 1d6 SA at first level also, now non-evil characters can use the PrC hack to get into Arcane Trickster, that makes it slightly less gimpy.
Yeah it comes at the price of a later entry date though due to the prereqs for master spy. In the above example it works since you hit assassin at 6th leaving you needing just the one last sneak attack dice which you get at 7th from master spy.
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Ooo, I hadn't noticed the master spy got 1d6 SA at first level also, now non-evil characters can use the PrC hack to get into Arcane Trickster, that makes it slightly less gimpy.Yeah it comes at the price of a later entry date though due to the prereqs for master spy. In the above example it works since you hit assassin at 6th leaving you needing just the one last sneak attack dice which you get at 7th from master spy.
It's my understanding that to qualify for prestige classes you need to have your ranks in order. Master Spy requires 7 ranks so your first level of Master Spy is your 8th character level.
Too busy to dig up specifics right now.
Yeah it comes at the price of a later entry date though due to the prereqs for master spy. In the above example it works since you hit assassin at 6th leaving you needing just the one last sneak attack dice which you get at 7th from master spy.
It's my understanding that to qualify for prestige classes you need to have your ranks in order. Master Spy requires 7 ranks so your first level of Master Spy is your 8th character level.Too busy to dig up specifics right now.
You are completely correct I had a brain fart and got things out of order.
Very true -- however it is fortunate you'll probably be using touch attacks most of the time.
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Very true -- however it is fortunate you'll probably be using touch attacks most of the time.
Well yes... but with a BAB of 3 and an DEX bonus of 4 you are still missing AC 10 15% of the time which is horrible at that level. It's great for attacking dragons and other biggies but rogues will mock you and you are toast attacking a monk enclave.
Well also consider you'll have either flanking or invisibility for another +2 to hit and a possibility of going on the flat footed AC too.
That puts you up to auto hit status on AC 10.
This ignores taking reduce person as a permanencied spell or a belt of Dex too.
Gah! How did I forget the rogue level?