Ok guys,
I have been running my campaign for 6 months now, and the players are doing great!!! Great game and having a lot of fun!!! The only issue I see is that they are blowing through some of my encounters pretty easily. I do my best to reward their team work and NEVER punish them for their excellent tactics (like any good DM); but like any group, they like a good challenge and it seems as though I am having a difficult time challenging them. The average party level is 6. I have a 6Lvl Pali, a 6LvlCleric, two 6Lvlwizards, a 5Lvlsorc, and a 5LvlMonk. I would like to put together an encounter that really challenges them and forces them to utilize ALL their resources. I wouldn’t mind seeing a little sweat on their brow :)
The current situation (dungeon) they are in, allows me to utilize:
Spiders (vermin)
An Undead Cleric and his undead minions
Mud Slaug
And an Undead T-Rex
My issue isn’t so much the creatures available; it is more or less HOW TO USE THE CREATURES I HAVE TO THEIR FULL POTENTIAL. I seem to have my bad guy spell casters die quickly and the wizard in the group is able to pre occupy MOST my monsters with his summoned creatures. ANY TACTICS OR TRICKS YOU GUYS MAY HAVE WOULD BE GREATELY APPRECIATED!
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My issue isn’t so much the creatures available; it is more or less HOW TO USE THE CREATURES I HAVE TO THEIR FULL POTENTIAL. I seem to have my bad guy spell casters die quickly and the wizard in the group is able to pre occupy MOST my monsters with his summoned creatures. ANY TACTICS OR TRICKS YOU GUYS MAY HAVE WOULD BE GREATELY APPRECIATED!
You have 4 characters of 6th level and 2 of 5th level. This is APL6; with 6 total characters, it it typical to bump it a level to APL7 for building threats. To have a meaningfully challenging encounter, you need an EL of 10, moving up to 11 or 12 if the players are experienced. 12 can get dicey. While the standard calls for 5 encounters of EL 7 per day, 3-4 of EL 8-10 should be doable.
I don't know what a mud slaug is, but otherwise, you have a limited selection of critters to work with. I'm assuming the non-cleric undead are skeletons and zombies...basic meat.
When dealing with a large party with this many arcanists, you may get some threat mileage out of making sure they are facing multiple encounters per day, and which are spread out in time. How to arrange that may be challenging; experienced parties will want to pull back to the 15 minute adventuring day.
But, to get the challenge effect in, early encounters with vermin to drop some poison effects will weaken the party. The effects really need to be spread around to multiple members...the idea is to overload their Lesser Restoration resources so that they are hurting a bit. An alternative if it works for your dungeons would be a trap encounter (no rogue...), possibly using the room-as-trap concepts out of Dungeonscape if you are so inclined.
Middle encounters with bolstered undead (either through desecration, bolstering, templates if available), possibly augmented by some summons by the cleric of his own will help deplete the spell load.
Final encounter with the cleric and minions in helpful terrain should end the day.
Avoid providing a BBG w/o supporting cast.
Summary:
Encounter 1: EL8 vermin
Encounter 2: EL9 vermin, slaug, or undead
Encounter 3: El9 undead (t-rex and friends?)
Encounter 4: EL10 cleric with sufficient support/terrain to create time.
This is what I would expect to throw down in a single day of adventuring to challenge the party composition, and assuming they are experienced. In way of comparison, typical adventures for Living Greyhawk were 3 encounters in single day, totaling APL*3+6...often divined APL+1, APL+2, APL+3. As a way of warning, 6th level parties seem particulary vulnerable vs strong encounters (APL+3).
Well, for starters, put yourself in the Cleric's shoes. You know that, sooner or later, someone is going to try to stop your nefarious plans. So, how would I intelligently defend my lair?
Are your "undead minions" zombies and other mindless entities? Or are they smarter? Shadows and ghosts can do nasty things in cramped hallways. In fact, most of the time you can really hamper a group by making them fight in poor terrain, especially if the monster you're using is adapted for that terrain.
Spiders - in their lair? Roaming? In lair is nice - players have to carefully pick their way through the webs (Web "spell" but indefinite duration). If they decide to burn the webs, they're now in an enclosed area with a fire. Smoke inhalation, angry spiders, limited visibility (spiders have tremorsense) and other factors can make this miserable. The spiders could attack from camouflaged holes in the cave or corridor walls.
The undead t-rex, well, sounds scary at first, but it needs tons of room to fight. This means that the players have room to spread out and use their numbers to their advantage. Maybe throw this when they're weakened.
My main point is this - "you heroes are bringing this into MY HOUSE?!? I'm a powerful Priest of (insert evil deity here)! I will not stand around and wait for you to find me. I will organize the defense of my lair intelligently and aggressively." And don't forget to use traps - I see no rogue on your player character list. Pit traps are nasty - leaves fighters injured even if the wizards manage to get featherfall off.
The worst thing to face is an intelligent monster in its lair. Defend the lair as if it were yours. Look for ambush points. Place traps and architecture to funnel the players into killing grounds. Silence the spellcasters. Wand of Ray of Enfeeblement on melee. Enthrall while your undead minions surround the party. Stone Shape to cover your escape. Glyphs of Warding approaching your sanctuary. Turn the paladin.
I would also like to add the following to the above tips:
Give their opponents plenty of opportunities to use cover/concealment. Put tables, closets and columns in the dungeon, where foes can get behind (preferably with some kind of missile weapon). Make them move a lot. Make them spread out, so that spellcasters cannot target them all at once. Dim the light sources, so that the PCs cannot see them.
Let the evil priest be prepared with spells, potions, etc.
All good advice. Also, give the cleric some potions of spells not on his list. Invisibility and displacement are great; your AC doesn't matter if there's a flat miss chance, or the party simply can't find you. While invisible, and the party should be occupied with minions (applying the zombie template to giants is a great way to get a massive sack of hit points, which if nothing else, buys time), establish some battlefield control spells. I don't have a cleric's spell list handy at the moment, or the time to check the SRD, but if you can have some wall spells or the like put out, that would be good. Divide and conquer.
Before you even get to that, throw down a forbiddance stacked with unhallow on his throne room (or whatever) for a nasty smack whenever they even enter the place. Chain invisibility purge (it won't affect the cleric's) or, perhaps better, dispel magic to the unhallow. There's a feat in Libris Mortis that lets non-undead heal via negative energy. That would be a huge boon to an evil cleric.
Some more specifics about the dungeon, the foes, the layout, etc., would help us pool resources on the board to set up some good challenges. Also, common tactics of your party. The last big fight I ran, the party faced a vampire. The rogue's sneak attacks were useless, her short swords couldn't pierce the damage reduction faster than the fast healing took care of it; the barbarian had a terrible will save and turned against the druid, dropping him (but not killing, so it was all good) in one round; the sorcerer used fire and negative energy spells, and the vampire was immune to the second and the first he blocked with one protection from energy. It was one of the hardest fights I've ever run, but only because it was tailored to the specifics of the party, down to their feats, spell selection, and standard operating procedures.
Whenever they do get to this dungeon, let us know how it plays out!
Well, for starters, put yourself in the Cleric's shoes. You know that, sooner or later, someone is going to try to stop your nefarious plans. So, how would I intelligently defend my lair?
This is the most important bit of advice.
But.. you can throw in a few wild cards. Why stick to the listed monsters you have? I've thown a Lich at a party of equivalent power supported by 4 ghosts. Half the party got tapped a few levels (which I very kindly offered them back with a side adventure) but it stretched them. I am constantly surprised by player ingenuity. So what I suggest may seem like desperation tactics, but they were pleased when they won though.
On the other hand you can have alot of fun with intelligently played lowbie undead, the trick I've found is to wrong foot your players by playing on their assumptions. Ever filled a orc barracks with 10th level orcs? Ever make them run from a blind beholder with 5 hps? These sound passe but it works!
Maruc
I would suggest you try some things like pits, traps, and like and using some deception.
Use a mirror to change the location of oncomming undead; work really good on a corner that makesa hall look straight; undead set to walking by some trigger; mundane or magical; pc's see the undead; blast it; really blast the mirror. You might want to put a few spectral lights; wisps and things; just remeants of ghosts or phantoms that are nothing but scenery to make it less likely to be a givaway from torches and the like. Now; this is the distraction; the real trap is trapdoor in front or the mirror or so on; so the pcs blew up the mirror; feel bit silly; but know there is undead; usually will charge forward to encounter them knowing they are right around the corner; dont let your undead go around the corner to make them come to the undead; being aggressive pc; this will be no problem; but remember; the encounter here is the trap; a hidden pit or trapdoor or whatever; maybe a trapdoor has a trapdoor spider in it; anyway; hope this gives you ideas.
ok; second idea; remember that undead dont have to breath; so they will be at a dissadvantage that undead ignore in underwater encounters. Maybe you could put some murky water in that the pc's have to cross or swim or such; with undead waiting for them.
third idea; expansion of concept; you can bury your undead in sand and such; having them spring up to encounter the pc's in direct contact; perhaps use a distraction of undead archers to draw them into the area. hehe you might have your throneroom with all the undead buried or covered and the throne itself, but a bunch of sheets in front of it so they cant see your champion/hero guy on it; they move forward to check out the throne; nice place to put some treasure in; but if they tear down the sheets, the undead you have hidden in the floor or under/behind stuff/buried; pop up; or you could have a trap to drop all the sheets when they get to a certain spot; after all; undead servants just follow orders like "hold this rope; anyone steps in this circle; let go". heeh worse yet; sheets drop from the ceiling; can you say undead blanket party. The whole point here is to minimize the casters visibility distance; when I do things like this; there should always be some person in the party that gets out of it; the monk in this case can probably avoid much of this with dodge.
have an encounter on a 60 degree incline; that way any pc could climb it; but not be able to stand well or use shields or two handed weapons; so; probably no dex bonus for anyone but the monk. your spiders of course; well; they would have no difficulties.
Make some of the undead minions; putrid zombies; I mean they really stink like a gaseous cloud; or try flaming skeletons; check out the Liber Mortis at the end they have a lot of modified undead like really fast moving/dex skeletons and zombies. and as for that; put in an Adherer; it looks just like a zombie or mummy; but is really something else; a plant I think; has 5-8 hd; but that is not important; what is the catch is that anything that hits it; like a sword or fist; sticks to it; thus need a str roll at whatever difficulty to get your weapons back.
One thing with undead you might use; disease, plague and the like; make it a bit more insideous. plague rats; stinking piles of rotted garbage <read humanoids that also can be spare parts> wandering monsters that eat carrion; like ghouls and carrion crawlers. Rats and spiders are a good mix; who eats who battles between spiders and rats; maybe the pc's can see a battle between two hordes; horde of rats and spiders go at it; if attacked; rats might run away until there is an advantage; spiders charge; then rats come back in a swarm; just a thought.
Oil a hallway or two; I mean really oil it; have an undead guy constantly appling oil and the other a charm to make a fire; so you burn a couple undead minions; heck; mabye they can take it; will still fight; smoke and fire when the pc's are in the hall; might make them nervous; hehe nobody will charge in that slippery mess; the fire should be a surprize; maybe have some more guys down the way to throw things or shoot or cast and leave to make the pc's try to hurry down the hall.
is this anything your looking for; have lots of other ideas; could write them all day really.
one thing I really think you must do; is really get into the evil undead part of it; wierd haunting noises; shreeks; wisp of vapor coming through the walls at strange angles; intense spots of bloodstains and psychic trauma; spots of vileness where unspeakable acts occured; heck even in hallways; maybe bleeding walls; footsteps that echo with excess volume. Places of such evil taint that it makes anyone not near the paladin puke or feel dirty and soiled; nice place to make the pally feel special. Constant chattering of voices; and do some voices; things they talk about; thing is that they should hear whispers; talking about them; their past; thier families; power; ways to get power; greed; lust; you name it; these are evil noisy spirits; now the pc's job is to not listen; for listening; well, that is the way to maddness or becoming an open gate for spirits and the like; maybe demons; yikes.
Put in a ghost scene; maybe an adventurer or two from some other group; mabye someone looking for some loved ones that were taken and they wanted to get them back; but died horribly cutting short their bright future but leaving one totally rampaging ghost. Now with ghosts; it is all about the story; play it like one snippet of the last 10 minutes or so of the dead person (s) life; so the adventures get to one part of the dungeon and encounter the ghost or ghosts. mabye play it like they stepped into the Twilight Zone or a little undead pocket domain; play the ghost like a master illusionist reliving the last moments of his or her life; just for kicks; make it a person that would be very attracted to your sorcerer as that class is a psychic type class and would be good for later things. Anyway, the ghost should look like a normal person and act like a normal person; even flirt or whatever; if yoiu like the idea; open it up for a half hour or something; have the ghost join the party and help for a while, bu forgets the pc's names and calls them other names, but what is important here is the coming death scene. It should be some ambush or the like; it can even be a total manifestation of the ghost reliving its death scene; and it should be like the pc's are trapped in a movie. So the ambush happens and no matter what; a couple of the bad guys tear apart the ghost's fleshy body; then it turns into the real horror of a rampaging ghost that attacks everyone; you could even have all the other ambushing things go away as they may have only been manifestations of the ghosts memory; thing is; they can kill it but not kill it; this scene replays over and over and over for eons until the place where the bad guys stashed the bones/body of the ghost is discovered and put to rest in consecrated ground; doing so should be a great exp/karma bonus, maybe a blessing or boon. Anyway, after the battle is over and the ghost is "killed" as it takes time to remanifiest; have your sorcerer get the psychic impression that the bones are somewhere; maybe intuitioin of what happened and put the bones on the water murk I mentioned earlier. You could also have anyone with tracking or good spot or search see that in the spot of the death of the ghost; a really violent death happened there.
hehe I have lots and lots and lots of ideas; they just dont stop if you dont like any of the ones I have posted so far.
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I've learned that the more time I have to design the encounter and think through what the monsters are gonna do -- what they can do -- the more challenging the encounter is for the PCs.
Sometimes, when I have little time to prepare, especially with casters, the PCs blow through the monsters too easily.
Anyway, that's what I would look at first. How well do you know your monsters' abilities and resources? How fluently do you know their best options in a fight?
And, of course, if you are well prepared and know your monsters alot, do everything everyone else said.
Hmm; I am wondering if Steve is going to check this thread again or if I was writing for nothing :(
be nice to get some feedback from this GM; so did any of this help?