RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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All,
I have a Druid in my game who, last session, tried to turn herself into a tree using Tree Shape, and then alter her form using Wood Shape. She was trying to turn herself into a giant wooden duck (don't ask!).
I'm wondering how this would work. Can Wood Shape affect a person who has been turned into a tree? Or does it only work on actual plants? If it is possible to use Wood Shape, should she have been able to cast the spell while in tree form? For reference, she does have the Natural Spell feat.
During the game, I let her go ahead and do it, since it was fun and not particularly important. But I'd be interested to know what the "right" answer is.
Thanks!
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Tree shape turns you into a large tree or dead tree trunk (so Wood Shape would be applicable even if it only works on lumber, and not living wood): that's 8-16 feet tall. Tree trunks are, traditionally, cylindrical. Wood shape allows you to shape 10 cubic feet + 1 cubic foot per level. I am going to assume your druid is the minimum level to cast these two spells in the same day - 4th. So, 14 cubic feet of wood.
For a cylindrical tree trunk that is a minimum of 8 feet long to have a volume of 14 cubic feet, it would need to be ~16 inches in diameter. If we're starting with a 16 foot tree trunk, it's ~10 inches in diameter. It's a skinny tree, like an aspen or a young maple, but it's plausible. I don't know how big your duck's gonna be at 14 cubic feet, though.
Also, Natural Spell specifies it works while you're wild shaped, not polymorphed or, in this case, tree shaped. To cast wood shape while a tree, she'd need to apply Still Spell and Silent Spell to wood shape. I'm going to be kind and assume her Divine Focus, which changes with her when she becomes a tree, is still applicable as a divine focus shaped knot or can be hanging from a branch.
Or you can go with what's fun. ;)
The combination of the spells should work.
Tree Shape turn you into a living tree, or a dead one.
Wood Shape allows you to change a piece of wood (no mention of dead or living) into a shape, in a crude manner.
The issue:
I don't think that Natural Spell feat would apply on anyone in tree shape. While in tree shape, your dex is 0, as is your speed. To me, that means that you cannot move on your own, so cannot talk or make somatic movements.
If your druid has Wood Shape under silent and still metamagic (either prayed for or with rods), then I would have no problem allowing the combination.
Edit: Ninja'd
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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@cappadocius, great answer! I think that about sums it up. She's a 6th-level druid at this point, so size shouldn't be a problem. Also, "I'm going to be kind and assume her Divine Focus, which changes with her when she becomes a tree, is still applicable as a divine focus shaped knot . . . " -- hillarious!
@Mistwalker, your point regarding Still and Silent spell is well taken. I assumed she was rustling her leaves or something to make up the spell components, but you're probably right.
@thepuregamer, well, it seemed like a good idea at the time. . . . Actually, it was one of those crazy things that tends to happen in a tavern. I think she was a little drunk at the time, and someone made a bet involving something or other, and it sort of snowballed from there. But it was a great session!
Thanks everyone for your advice!
So a Druid wildshaped into a tree, can use Natural Spell feat. But a Druid who turn into a tree by Treeshape spell can not.
Sounds nick picky to me.
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Even so, I have a better question.
Why would you need Wood Shape in the first place?
Tree shape says "" The exact type of tree, as well as its appearance, in completely under your control ""
So you could turn yourself into a tree shaped like an animal. Without needing tree shape, because it is already built into the spell. Or as a Dead tree trunk, shaped like a animal.
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True, fine detail would be out. But i do not think you could combine tree shape and wood shape to get vine detail ether.
In fact, Just as Stone Shape deals 3d6 damage (3rd level spell) to someone Meld into stone. I would think Wood Shape would do 2d6 damage (2nd level spell) to someone in Tree Shape form, although the druid could continue to retain tree shape if he so likes.
Anyway a different way of looking at it.
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So a Druid wildshaped into a tree, can use Natural Spell feat.
Well, since we're being nit-picky, a Druid cannot wildshape into a tree. A druid can wildshape into a creature of the Plant type - not a plant. Treants, not Tree. Shambling Mounds, not Daffodils. That's why the spell tree shape exists in the first place.
Well, since we're being nit-picky, a Druid cannot wildshape into a tree. A druid can wildshape into a creature of the Plant type - not a plant. Treants, not Tree. Shambling Mounds, not Daffodils. That's why the spell tree shape exists in the first place.So a Druid wildshaped into a tree, can use Natural Spell feat.
Nit-picky... You are not a creature of that type... but only of that form. You still count as humanoid while wildshaped as animel, plant or elemental.
The spell tree shape is a hold over from 2nd ed, when druids did not have have the ability to wildshape into plants of any kind.
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Nit-picky... You are not a creature of that type... but only of that form. You still count as humanoid while wildshaped as animal, plant or elemental.The PRD is silent on the matter, so please cite where a druid wildshaped into the form of a fox remains of the Humanoid type while wildshaped.
Well, according to the Polymorph description in the core rulebook (pg 212). It states: "When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body."
So, it looks like you actually turn into the "type" of creature you are wildshaped into.
Page 211 = Polymorph
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
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Beast Shape Spells = "When you cast this spell, you can assume the FORM of any..."
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Another way to look at this is, when a druid turn into a Elemental, they are still humanoid. They only assume the form of an elemental.
Elementals do not need to breathe, rest or sleep. Druids who wildshape into elementals do need to eat, sleep, rest.
A druid wildshape into a fox is still considered a humanoid, and not an animal. They have assumed the form, but not its type.
Nit-picky... You are not a creature of that type... but only of that form. You still count as humanoid while wildshaped as animal, plant or elemental.The PRD is silent on the matter, so please cite where a druid wildshaped into the form of a fox remains of the Humanoid type while wildshaped.
Well, according to the Polymorph description in the core rulebook (pg 212). It states: "When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body."
So, it looks like you actually turn into the "type" of creature you are wildshaped into.
Note that it used the word FORM a dozen times, and only type once. Also all the Beast Shape, Plant shape, and Elemental shape spells.... say you assume the Form of the creature, and not its type.
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Nit-picky... You are not a creature of that type... but only of that form. You still count as humanoid while wildshaped as animal, plant or elemental.
Also, just for fun:
awaken[/i] in the PRD]
An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type
Emphasis mine.
and the wording of Wild Shape, with regards to plants:
At 8th level, a druid can also use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, a Medium elemental, or a Small or Medium plant creature. When taking the form of animals, a druid's wild shape now functions as beast shape III. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body II. When taking the form of a plant creature, the druid's wild shape functions as plant shape I.
Emphasis mine. So, now we look at plant shape I:
plant shape I[/i] in the PRD]
When you cast this spell you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the plant type.
Emphasis always mine.
So! Since trees *do not* possess the plant type until they are awakened, they are not a viable subject for plant shape I or wildshape. Regardless of what type the Druid remains when shapeshifted, he can't take on the form of a tree.
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So! Since trees *do not* possess the plant type until they are awakened, they are not a viable subject for plant shape I or wildshape. Regardless of what type the Druid remains when shapeshifted, he can't take on the form of a tree.
I agree. A normal tree isn't a plant creature, it's an object. You can't wild shape into an object.
If you use Treeshape to turn into a Tree. You can move your branches or make verbal noise to substitute for the V and S components of casting.
You can't move your branches, because your Dexterity is effectively 0 (except for Reflex saves).
It's not so clear whether you can speak. A normal tree wouldn't have the physical organs to do so, but I wouldn't entirely rule it out, since tree shape is not a polymorph spell, refers to the subject being "concealed" rather than transformed and gives you other abilities trees don't possess, such as sight.
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It's not so clear whether you can speak. A normal tree wouldn't have the physical organs to do so, but I wouldn't entirely rule it out, since tree shape is not a polymorph spell, refers to the subject being "concealed" and gives you other abilities trees don't possess, such as sight.
How do you know trees don't have sight, since they can't talk or gesture to let you know?
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How do you know trees don't have sight, since they can't talk or gesture to let you know?
It's not so clear whether you can speak. A normal tree wouldn't have the physical organs to do so, but I wouldn't entirely rule it out, since tree shape is not a polymorph spell, refers to the subject being "concealed" and gives you other abilities trees don't possess, such as sight.
Hmm. I'm a bit worried now.
So am i understand this correct
You are Saying that a Druid who wildshape, gains the Subtype of the creature he turns into ??
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Quate came from this tread.
An OFFICIAL ruling on this would be appreciated!Callings for official rulings, by the way, are going to be particularly slapdash in their response for a while, as Jason's down in Gen Con Australia.
But as far as the polymorph spells go... you do not change type or gain subtypes when you use them. The spells are pretty clear on what abilities you can gain when you use them, and changing type or gaining subtypes is not among those abilities.
My understanding is they do not gain the type or subtype.... which means they keep there old type. Which for most humanoids is humanoid.