Yeah, but action economy prevents me from making enough for everyone that wants some. :)
That's what you get for playing a Tier 5 class like Movie Theatre Employee. Next time play a wizard!
Perhaps more important, though is the question of whether the OP's intent is to create a game world that works in all respects according to Christian ideas- or just a game world in which many characters subscribe to Christian ideas.
If the latter is true, but not the former is demonstrably false, he's likely to end up with some extremely disgruntled people -- hence the advice I offered.
Perhaps more important, though is the question of whether the OP's intent is to create a game world that works in all respects according to Christian ideas- or just a game world in which many characters subscribe to Christian ideas.If the latter, but not the former, he's likely to end up with some extremely disgruntled people -- hence the advice I offered.
I can only assume that this is based on your own gaming experiences. I doesn't accord with mine. I've played in games, and run games, in which religious traditions drawn from the real world formed a part of the game world. We've never had any issues with that, at all.
The OP knows his group better than I do- and better than you do, too.
I can only assume that this is based on your own gaming experinces. I doesn't accord with mine. I've played in games, and run games, in which religious traditions drawn from the real world formed a part of the game world. We've never had any issues with that, at all.
Yes, I'm speaking from experience, from the flip side of the picture actually, about 25 years ago with a DM who was devoutly Catholic -- but not all the players shared his level of zeal. It was not an experience that anyone should have to replicate.
The OP knows his group better than I do - and better than you do, too.
I should hope so -- but people are people, and real-life religion is a VERY touchy subject. Unless he knows them a LOT better than most people know their players, it's a minefield.
I should hope so -- but people are people, and real-life religion is a VERY touchy subject. Unless he knows them a LOT better than most people know their players, it's a minefield.
Sure, but the same may be said of sexuality, gender, race, politics, even economics.
Sure, but the same may be said of sexuality, gender, race, politics, even economics.
Yes, but very few of those have the "get out of criticism free" card that religion does. For example, nobody ever says, "But I respect your political party, even though I don't belong to it." Religion is touchier.
Sure, but the same may be said of sexuality, gender, race, politics, even economics.Yes, but very few of those have the "get out of criticism free" card that religion does. For example, nobody ever says, "But I respect your political party, even though I don't belong to it." Religion is touchier.
Oh, I disagree. Political ideology essentially IS religion for a lot of folks. And I have told people that I respected their party, even though I don't belong to it and didn't agree with some of its ideas. That's how I feel about Greens and Libertarians.
And I have told people that I respected their party, even though I don't belong to it and didn't agree with some of its ideas.
I'd like to meet you! Most of what I hear where I am is "Lucky we have a Second Amendment solution to the problem of the immoral Communist Democrats, who want to destroy our way of life!"
Except making some sort of patchwork pantheon isn't "a lot like Catholicism."
Looked at the story of St. Christopher anytime lately?
It looks a whole lot like Catholicism.
I'd like to meet you! Most of what I hear where I am is "Lucky we have a Second Amendment solution to the problem of the immoral Communist Democrats, who want to destroy our way of life!"
Oh, I've run into some people like that from various ideological backgrounds. First, I try to be polite and rational in discussing things with them. If that doesn't work I usually just ignore them.
I don't even bother going on political chatrooms. Too many trolls. I do enjoy talking politics with my friends, my professors, etc.
Thanks. Maybe I should have capitalized it? :)
Thats a reasonable approach if everybody can live with the inherent relativism. Knowledge and Law might work for an inquisitor.
Also, kudos for fantachristianity.Stefan
Trademarked might be better :-)
The basic idea is that since there is only one god, everyone is simply accessing different aspects of the one god.Another idea might be giving the clerics the ability to change domains, not on a whim, but at given points in their careers (such as a sorceror can relearn spells at a certain level; or alternately if a major event or shift in the campaign happens, etc.), or by performing rituals or prayers. I.e. the wandering friar ends up becoming a defender of a small village vs. nasty evil thing, so maybe he changes travel to protection by spending a week in fasting and prayer.
Just some game ideas.
If you take the notion that saints and angels are similar to lesser gods (after a fashion - we have established that they are not the same), and take the variable domain idea a step further, praying to the right angel or saint might grant you access to the corresponding domain. Need the war domain? Pray to the archangel Michael. This would be more in keeping with the D&D rules of "pray and bingo! here are the spells."
Just some ideas.
Stefan
*sigh* Well, as someone who's actually Catholic and who has thought about how playing something modeled after the Church in the Pathfinder system would work I'll bite the bullet and put out a few suggestions.
Noticed I said modeled, and I don't intend to join these arguments that are going around XD
I would suggest using the 'saint' system that a lot of people were talking about. It is a good way of dividing up domains and grouping them with weapons. You might also be able to give various saints different good alignments. Of course, no matter what saint a person is associated with, technically he would still be worshiping God if he was 'doing it right'. You could also simply use another option of having people focus on different aspects of God rather than saints.
This avoids the problem that God in Pathfinder would be OP for having almost every domain. He's supposed to be the God of everything after all. The only domain he certainly wouldn't have would be Evil, because none of his creations were meant to be evil. The devil himself was created as a good being, but he changed on his own. God also probably wouldn't have the Darkness or Chaos domains either.
If you want to put in stuff in based on the idea that certain factions of the church can be evil, the most realistic way to do that while still letting them have divine power is to have them start getting their power from (evil) sources other than God. They'll still be a part of the church and they might even think they're doing God's will, but they'd actually be getting their power from something else. Due to social and political confusion common people will have trouble telling the difference.
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A version of Catholicism that would make sense for a fantasy setting:
God
Alignment: LG
Domains:
Law
Good
Nobility
Sun
Community
Protection
Weapon: Quarter Staff.
Alternatively a Cleric or Inquisitor may choose a Saint to intercede on their behalf, and instead may choose one of the following domains instead of the above domains. Furthermore their favoured weapon changes to that of their interceding Saint.
St. Michael
Domains: War, Repose
Favoured Weapon: Longsword
St. Christopher
Domains: Strength, Travel
Favoured Weapon: Staff
St. Francis of Assissi
Domains: Animal, Plant
Favoured Weapon: Unarmed Strike
St. Cuthbert of Lindisfarne
Domains: Healing, Charm
Favoured Weapon: Staff
---------------------------------------------------------------
Just my $0.02.
One idea would be to do like Eberron did with the Sovereign Host. The pantheon as a whole had a holy symbol, weapon, and its domains were the collection of all of the gods inside the pantheon, each of which embodied a certain aspect of the pantheon as whole, and no one really knew where the power actually came from. Most people worshiped the pantheon as a whole. Doing something like this using Christianity as a model, one would end up with the one God as representing the religion as a whole, than the three aspects, father, son, and holy spirit, as the gods inside the pantheon, and the host of angels and saints (each of which would probably count as an avatar in DnD terms) being the channels through the power is actually shared with the mortal world. A surprisingly accurate model all in all.
Since St. Martha tamed the Tarrasque in Catholic hagiography, she'd be a pretty obvious saint to be the patron saint of adventurers, especially enchanters and anyone trying to take on the Tarrasque.
And St. George obviously is the patron saint of dragonslayers.
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Good lord, I wouldn't touch real-world Abrahamic traditions in-game with a ten-foot pole. Otherwise you end up with one player who wants the Good and Glory domains, and another of the same religion who wants the domains of Suffering (eternal hell), Pestilence (no condoms allowed!), and Buggery. Who am I to say which one of them is the One True and Correct interpretation? My advice: don't go there.That's good advice if you group includes people who have strong anti-Catholic or anti-Christian feelings and cannot seperate such feelings from play, yes. It might not be the case with the OPs' group. It's not the case with mine (in which most of the players are, in fact, Roman Catholics).
Yeah I agree with that idea wholeheartedly luckily my party is pretty religiously tolerant with the religious beliefs ranging from protestant to pagan and with most of them being pretty relaxed about religion as far as the games concerned which has me very grateful for the party I have. Hell I always enjoy that my most religiously staunch player in the group is a christian who runs a jungle elf follower of Quezaquoatl, he once had his character sacrifice himself to bring a little girl back to life after being killed by a Splinterwaif while the rest of the party fought the thing off(still think it was one of the coolest things they have pulled so far also gave me a reason to show them a Coatl). But yeah when it all comes down to it all that really matters is if your players can separate their own hang ups from the game at hand, a GM has knowledge of the party, and that everyone can just have fun.
I think building a concept around Devil/Law/Purity/Fire for a zealot foaming about hellfire taking those of unpure heart and forcing the Devils to serve the cause or Catastrophe/Fate/Resurrection/Destruction/Chaos for a harbinger of the Armageddon could offer some views on the faith that are not explored as often.
I think building a concept around Devil/Law/Purity/Fire for a zealot foaming about hellfire taking those of unpure heart and forcing the Devils to serve the cause or Catastrophe/Fate/Resurrection/Destruction/Chaos for a harbinger of the Armageddon could offer some views on the faith that are not explored as often.
That doesn't sound Catholic at all.
It could work very well for a millenarian heretic or crazed Gnostic, though! Heresy!
EDIT- Oooh, you've given me some good ideas, buddy. Thanks! You rule. Zmar! I will name an NPC villain after you. Thanks to everyone who has contributed ideas in this thread, including, of course, the OP.
I'm going to a little writing, now.
And now you see the problem with importing real life religions into a game. One man's heresy is another's true faith.
Exactamundo.
And now you see the problem with importing real life religions into a game. One man's heresy is another's true faith.That doesn't sound Catholic at all.
It could very well for a millenarian heretic or crazed Gnostic, though! Heresy!
Read up what happened in Munster. It's okay to call bad guys, bad guys. Millenarian militants tend to be unpleasant folks.
And now you see the problem with importing real life religions into a game. One man's heresy is another's true faith.Exactamundo.
I seriously doubt that he games with militant millenarian anabaptists like the nutters who took over Munster. Not too many 'crazed gnostics' around these days, either.
In wouldn't worry about offending a player who was a white supremacist or a militant, doctrinaire Marxist, either. Would you?
I'm all for respecting the players's sensibilities, but when it's no longer okay to use bad guys inspired by historical crazy end-of-the-world cults that did all sorts of very nasty stuff, then I think political correctness has gone too far.
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I would like to point you back to an earlier post. See how people can have different views of the exact same religion?
I'm from one of those countries ravaged by the catholics, and had our indigenous culture and faith destroyed by it, so in my mind:
Evil - Extreme intolerance, no qualms of killing those of differing (lesser/heretical) faiths
Law - Control and an exceedingly strict hierarchy
Trickery - Demand one thing of the people, while priests do otherwise, you may pay your way out of damnation, no qualms of using position to steal property and deceive
Glory - God wills it, we are the chosen ones
War - Spread the faith all over the world by the edge of the bladeFavored weapon: Longsword
If you want a fantasy version, based on the ideals of the catholism instead of the history, sure, Good, Law, Community, Glory and Protection are good choices.
I would like to point you back to an earlier post. See how people can have different views of the exact same religion?
Yes, so? People don't agree with me about how tacky it is to have so much T&A in D&D art- does that mean that there should be no art of women, period?
It bears repeating: what works for one DM, one set of players, etc may not work for all. By no means do I wish to convert others to the use of game religions based on real religions. I just support the OP's creativity and imagination. I like his ideas. I hope his campaign rocks.
Can you point to where I said 'you shouldn't put real religions in your game' instead of 'there are problems with putting them in your game'?
The operative phrase there is 'your game.' Indon't agree with the statement that there ARE problems. There MAY be problems, in some groups, sure. That would be dependent upon the DM and his players, not on what you think and not on what I write. If it works for the OP, that's cool for him and for his group. If it doesn't work for you, don't use it.
If I were running a game and you were one of my players, I'd think twice about using real world religion. You seem like someone who would have a negative emotional response to it.
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Actually, I'm a Deist who believes all religions are fantasy, and think they're a perfect fit for a fatasy game. :) However, there are people who don't think like I do, and would take offense.
A problem you do not encounter still exists. You need to be aware of it so that you can mitigate it should it ever arise.
The fact that you are aware of the need to be careful means you cannot say the problem doesn't exist, just because you've never encountered it.
Just because you've never been in an automobile accident doesn't mean those accidents don't exist.
Can you point to where I said 'you shouldn't put real religions in your game' instead of 'there are problems with putting them in your game'? Because otherwise, you're attacking a strawman.
What makes you think I'm attacking anything? I'm not interested in a pointless debate with you. There's nothing to debate. You've expressed your feelings. I agree that they are valid- for you and people who share your views. Are you looking for something else? I'm puzzled as to what that could be.
Actually, I'm a Deist who believes all religions are fantasy, and think they're a perfect fit for a fatasy game. :) However, there are people who don't think like I do, and would take offense.
A problem you do not encounter still exists. You need to be aware of it so that you can mitigate it should it ever arise.
The fact that you are aware of the need to be careful means you cannot say the problem doesn't exist, just because you've never encountered it.
Just because you've never been in an automobile accident doesn't mean those accidents don't exist.
Oh, now I get what you are on about. You've missed something important, but no sweat. Here's the deal: I fully acknowledge that some gamers have a problem with using elements of real world religion in games. I've never denied it. I just don't happen to game with people who tend to feel that way, and neither, it would seem, does the OP. For me, the problem does NOT exist, because the group that really matters is my group. I trust that the OP knows his own group well enough.
Are we on the same page, now?
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I would say so. I imagine my responses were colored by my impression of your first reply to me being rather defensive. Since I wasn't really intending to participate, I didn't read the rest of your posts on the subject. I'm glad you have a stable group. As a servicemember I don't get to have such a thing for long, and constantly have to seek out new people to game with.
I would say so. I imagine my responses were colored by my impression of your first reply to me being rather defensive. Since I wasn't really intending to participate, I didn't read the rest of your posts on the subject. I'm glad you have a stable group. As a servicemember I don't get to have such a thing for long, and constantly have to seek out new people to game with.
Kewl beans. It's easy for people to misunderstand one another online. Most of the time, that's what arguments are - misunderstandings. Sometimes, of course, you get a real fight over something substantial.
Thanks for serving!
I was in the Army for a few years. 91W
Good times, most of it.
We did some 'sandbox' D&D in the sandbox. :)
I think building a concept around Devil/Law/Purity/Fire for a zealot foaming about hellfire taking those of unpure heart and forcing the Devils to serve the cause or Catastrophe/Fate/Resurrection/Destruction/Chaos for a harbinger of the Armageddon could offer some views on the faith that are not explored as often.That doesn't sound Catholic at all.
It could work very well for a millenarian heretic or crazed Gnostic, though! Heresy!
EDIT- Oooh, you've given me some good ideas, buddy. Thanks! You rule. Zmar! I will name an NPC villain after you. Thanks to everyone who has contributed ideas in this thread, including, of course, the OP.
I'm going to a little writing, now.
Heh, my name means loss, destruction and things going awry in Czech, that kind of personality suits me well.
Toward sounding catholic - you keep thinking in modern terms, but in the dark ages there were quite a few crazes who emerged practically immediately with any tougher times (war, famine, plague) who promised eternal damnaton for all and salvation only to those who repent (throngs of flagelants probably considered themselves devout believers, but I would doubt about their motivation being something as you understand it. Not that I can recall any serious efforts to stop them from the church uthorities Those times were different probably and mother church welcomed all manner of stray sheep to it's fold probably). Calling upon the powers stinking with birmstone and hellfire to strike against the sinners (commoner masses who were to be cowed to do something, or upon the enemies when the crowd hesitated to strike against them, as cursed enemy didn't pose as much threat) at least in words during the sermons was probably quite popular. This is just taking it to another level.
I think building a concept around Devil/Law/Purity/Fire for a zealot foaming about hellfire taking those of unpure heart and forcing the Devils to serve the cause or Catastrophe/Fate/Resurrection/Destruction/Chaos for a harbinger of the Armageddon could offer some views on the faith that are not explored as often.That doesn't sound Catholic at all.
It could work very well for a millenarian heretic or crazed Gnostic, though! Heresy!
EDIT- Oooh, you've given me some good ideas, buddy. Thanks! You rule. Zmar! I will name an NPC villain after you. Thanks to everyone who has contributed ideas in this thread, including, of course, the OP.
I'm going to a little writing, now.Heh, my name means loss, destruction and things going awry in Czech, that kind of personality suits me well.
Toward sounding catholic - you keep thinking in modern terms, but in the dark ages there were quite a few crazes who emerged practically immediately with any tougher times (war, famine, plague) who promised eternal damnaton for all and salvation only to those who repent (throngs of flagelants probably considered themselves devout believers, but I would doubt about their motivation being something as you understand it. Not that I can recall any serious efforts to stop them from the church uthorities Those times were different probably and mother church welcomed all manner of stray sheep to it's fold probably). Calling upon the powers stinking with birmstone and hellfire to strike against the sinners (commoner masses who were to be cowed to do something, or upon the enemies when the crowd hesitated to strike against them, as cursed enemy didn't pose as much threat) at least in words during the sermons was probably quite popular. This is just taking it to another level.
The flagellants were surpressed, though. They were declared heretics.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06089c.htm
You know... serious effort looks somewhat different even in these peaceful times. Still they probably considered themselves proper catholics ;)
You know... serious effort looks somewhat different even in these peaceful times. Still they probably considered themselves proper catholics ;)
Doesn't matter what they considered themselves, though. The Church decides these things. :)
Thanks for serving!I was in the Army for a few years. 91W
Good times, most of it.
We did some 'sandbox' D&D in the sandbox. :)55B into 25B and possibly into 35L. :)
Ran an entire Shackled City campaign over 15 months in Afghanistan.
Cool.
I've always wanted to run Shackled City.
I really like Zmar's idea of fire and brimstone types who force devils to do their bidding in order to , as they believe, bring on the end times. Way cool!
That would work really well in my homebrew. Zmarism!
I'm going to use fictional religions, not real ones. There will definitely be some elements inspired by real world monotheist faiths, though.
** spoiler omitted **
I've seen some of the early adventures. I have one or two of the issues of Dungeon in which the AP appeared.
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I'm sure the mouse will be along soon, so I'll tell you now to buy the hardcover. :) $30 is worth it even if you don't use the extra module.
I'm from one of those countries ravaged by the catholics, and had our indigenous culture and faith destroyed by it, so in my mind:
Evil - Extreme intolerance, no qualms of killing those of differing (lesser/heretical) faiths
Law - Control and an exceedingly strict hierarchy
Trickery - Demand one thing of the people, while priests do otherwise, you may pay your way out of damnation, no qualms of using position to steal property and deceive
Glory - God wills it, we are the chosen ones
War - Spread the faith all over the world by the edge of the bladeFavored weapon: Longsword
If you want a fantasy version, based on the ideals of the catholism instead of the history, sure, Good, Law, Community, Glory and Protection are good choices.
That sounds like Islam...not Christianity. I'm sure you will agree that Christianity has been a blessing to humankind in general.
For some more variety, have a set of Saints. Dedication to a Saint would give one alternate domain and an alternate favored weapon.
Example
Saint Micheal
Domain: War
Favored Weapon: LongswordThough perhaps it would be easier to just have an alternate domain. Much easier if the subdomains from the APG are used.
This results in taking one Domain from the "Main" list, and one from the Saint.
I find this and the later interpretations of the saints-as-domains/weapons FASCINATING. I'd love to see a full writeup. I'm not catholic, but my mom has recently converted, strangely enough.
I'm from one of those countries ravaged by the catholics, and had our indigenous culture and faith destroyed by it, so in my mind:
Evil - Extreme intolerance, no qualms of killing those of differing (lesser/heretical) faiths
Law - Control and an exceedingly strict hierarchy
Trickery - Demand one thing of the people, while priests do otherwise, you may pay your way out of damnation, no qualms of using position to steal property and deceive
Glory - God wills it, we are the chosen ones
War - Spread the faith all over the world by the edge of the bladeFavored weapon: Longsword
If you want a fantasy version, based on the ideals of the catholism instead of the history, sure, Good, Law, Community, Glory and Protection are good choices.
That sounds like Islam...not Christianity. I'm sure you will agree that Christianity has been a blessing to humankind in general.
Just don't ask any Jews their opinion on the subject...
Has anyone suggested the Battle Aspergillum from the APG yet?
No, but it sounds cool. Nothing mixes so well as holy water, blood, and brains!
I'm from one of those countries ravaged by the catholics, and had our indigenous culture and faith destroyed by it, so in my mind:
Evil - Extreme intolerance, no qualms of killing those of differing (lesser/heretical) faiths
Law - Control and an exceedingly strict hierarchy
Trickery - Demand one thing of the people, while priests do otherwise, you may pay your way out of damnation, no qualms of using position to steal property and deceive
Glory - God wills it, we are the chosen ones
War - Spread the faith all over the world by the edge of the bladeFavored weapon: Longsword
If you want a fantasy version, based on the ideals of the catholism instead of the history, sure, Good, Law, Community, Glory and Protection are good choices.
That sounds like Islam...not Christianity. I'm sure you will agree that Christianity has been a blessing to humankind in general.
Are you joking? I'm not saying I disagree (I don't) but I know rather a lot of people who would say Christianity is the worst thing to happen to the world. And a few who, despite being nonreligious themselves, think Islam is more peaceable than Christianity. (Usually, those also seem to think that Islam is the older religion and Christianity stole a lot from it, so I don't really take them seriously...)
I'm not sure where you get your confidence from. And I think we'd better stop this line before it derails hard.I'm sure you will agree that Christianity has been a blessing to humankind in general.
Agreed