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Long story short I have a player who just rolled up a half-orc inquisitor that is supposed to be reminiscent of something like van helsing and we were trying to pick a good religion for him within the campaign and none really seemed to fit. After some thought though it seems best to just use Catholicism (during the era of the crusades and the time following it) itself as it feels like a good fit to the character and the story they are getting into and had been meaning to bring it in anyways. My only problem right now though is picking out the domains and the favored weapon for the church and would like to get some suggestions from anyone who would be willing to lend a hand. what domains i feel fit and the favored weapon as it stands are as follows
Alignment LG
Domains:
Law
Good
Glory
Fire
Sun
Protection
Favored Weapon:
Longsword
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Touchy subject I suppose, but I do not see the Good coming into play here - especially in that era.
Sun and Fire don't fit for me.
It all boils down to how close you want his belief to resemble dark age catholicism.
The longsword seems a good fit - feels like the night protector style.
Ruyan.
You might want to divide the domains and favored weapons up among various saints.
Kinda good idea that.
In Roman Catholicism Saint Michael has four distinct roles.
First, he is the supreme enemy of Satan and the fallen angels. He vanquished Satan and ejected him from Paradise and will achieve victory at the hour of the final battle with Satan.
Secondly, he is the Christian angel of death: at the hour of death, Saint Michael descends and gives each soul the chance to redeem itself before passing, thus consternating the devil and his minions.
Saint Michael's third role is weighing souls in his perfectly balanced scales (hence the saint is often depicted holding scales) on Judgment Day.
And finally, Saint Michael is the Guardian of the Church. [11]
In the Catholic tradition, Saint Michael symbolizes the victory of good over evil, and he has been widely represented in Catholic art through the ages. Devotions to Saint Michael have a large Catholic following, and a large number of churches are dedicated to him worldwide.
So lets tackle the easy ones first.
Angel of death... Repose
Good over evil....Good
Guardian of the Churc ....that makes me think Protection
Victory over Satan ....Glory maybe?
weighing souls... that one I find tough... Law maybe?
Greg
EDIT actually, I could see victory over satan being liberation upon further consideration. Weighing souls is still a tough one..maybe another reinforcement towards repose
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The most fitting domains for Catholicism in that era might be
Law
Community
Glory
Protection
Nobility (if the priest is of noble birth)
The favored weapon would be a mace if the priest is not part of a "military arm" of his church. The role of the Knight Templars lead to a long and complex theological discussion if a man of the church could be trained with and wield a weapon, especially a sword. Priests were not allowed to do so, priests in lower standing that had no guards to protect them were (more or less grudgingly) allowed to wield a cudgel or a mace to defend themselfs.
Of course, if you go for a more fantastic setting that might change, but I wouldn't consider the longsword as the favorite weapon.
Dividing domains among various saints will make the whole thing more colourful and intresting, but the laws and beliefs of the catholic church regarding armament weren't that different, regardless what saint a priest might chose to favor.
I'm from one of those countries ravaged by the catholics, and had our indigenous culture and faith destroyed by it, so in my mind:
Evil - Extreme intolerance, no qualms of killing those of differing (lesser/heretical) faiths
Law - Control and an exceedingly strict hierarchy
Trickery - Demand one thing of the people, while priests do otherwise, you may pay your way out of damnation, no qualms of using position to steal property and deceive
Glory - God wills it, we are the chosen ones
War - Spread the faith all over the world by the edge of the blade
Favored weapon: Longsword
If you want a fantasy version, based on the ideals of the catholism instead of the history, sure, Good, Law, Community, Glory and Protection are good choices.
I'm from one of those countries ravaged by the catholics, and had our indigenous culture and faith destroyed by it, so in my mind:
Evil - Extreme intolerance, no qualms of killing those of differing (lesser/heretical) faiths
Law - Control and an exceedingly strict hierarchy
Trickery - Demand one thing of the people, while priests do otherwise, you may pay your way out of damnation, no qualms of using position to steal property and deceive
Glory - God wills it, we are the chosen ones
War - Take over the world by the edge of the bladeFavored weapon: Longsword
yep, that is why RuyanVe said it was a touchy subject. And another reason I like the saint method. One avoids "historical" analogy and moves towards an internal analogy. How the faith sees itself as opposed how it is seen from the outside. Too many variables as seen from outside. But its own mythology can be internally logical.
OFF TOPIC annecdote. One of the worst endings to a game my group has had was bringing in Real world religions to a D&D fantasy setting. It may work with others, but did not work with us.
I would seriously make certain your group is okay with it.
Greg
yep, that is why RuyanVe said it was a touchy subject. And another reason I like the saint method. One avoids "historical" analogy and moves towards an internal analogy. How the faith sees itself as opposed how it is seen from the outside. Too many variables as seen from outside. But its own mythology can be internally logical.
OFF TOPIC annecdote. One of the worst endings to a game my group has had was bringing in Real world religions to a D&D fantasy setting. It may work with others, but did not work with us.
I would seriously make certain your group is okay with it.
Greg
Exactly. The real world systems of faiths are too internally varied (how many forms of Christianity exists now?) and cannot be accurately portrayed, let alone made politically correct. Fantasy gods are neutral, as no-one have any preconceptions of what they are. Back in 2e, I recall one of the god-books refer to the norse pantheon as mostly chaotic evil. Even the valkyries that come to bring the fallen to the afterlife were CE.
It is just going to lead to internal strife, unless you all agree to play a pre-determined fantasy/legend-approach like in the Arthurian Legend RPG "Pendragon".
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I'm from one of those countries ravaged by the catholics, and had our indigenous culture and faith destroyed by it, so in my mind:
Evil - Extreme intolerance, no qualms of killing those of differing (lesser/heretical) faiths
Law - Control and an exceedingly strict hierarchy
Trickery - Demand one thing of the people, while priests do otherwise, you may pay your way out of damnation, no qualms of using position to steal property and deceive
Glory - God wills it, we are the chosen ones
War - Spread the faith all over the world by the edge of the bladeFavored weapon: Longsword
If you want a fantasy version, based on the ideals of the catholism instead of the history, sure, Good, Law, Community, Glory and Protection are good choices.
I really didn't want to open that can of worms in a thread where someone asks advice for his game.
Guess what. I'm a pagan, I'm really not trying to glorify Catholizism for it's ideals. I left good/evil out of my short list for exactly that reason.
Back in 2e, I recall one of the god-books refer to the norse pantheon as mostly chaotic evil. Even the valkyries that come to bring the fallen to the afterlife were CE.
OOOOOH! That seems really familiar. I remember having arguements about valkyries alignment at a local gaming store! Of course I was in the minority. I usually am :P
really didn't want to open that can of worms in a thread where someone asks advice for his game.
Guess what. I'm a pagan, I'm really not trying to glorify Catholizism for it's ideals. I left good/evil out of my short list for exactly that reason.
I have been gaming with the same group since 1989. We are very good friends. We still do not discuss religion or politics in any depth because of some very opposed opinions on it.
Danger, Here be dragons.
Greg
Forgive my husband, he enjoys watching Pat Condell's youtube channel.
I would say that the Catholic Church is LN.
As a Catholic, my take on the domains:
Law: Easy there, you got Deuteronomy, the 10 Commandments, and in John, you got the rapture if you fail to uphold them.
Community: Jesus turns water into wine at marriages, makes the loaves and fish feed 5000, and goes about preaching to his flock with an entourage of 13 guys and one Mary Magdeline. His charisma is dope, but he is both 100% God and Man, so... you'd expect that he'd have at least a +2 to charisma.
Healing: A given. Remove blindness/deafness, neutralize poison, Heal, etc.
Fire: In the bible, there's lots of it, it's God's favored method of punishing the wicked, and He used it to speak to Moses in the desert as well.
and finally
Knowledge: Precognition of his own death, handed down from his Father, but... yeah. Also, he could see into the hearts of men and knew their faults and how to approach them so that they would become better people by his example.
Favored weapon: Quarterstaff. Jesus was a shepherd, not a holy warrior. Peter, who founded the Church was not a warrior, either. The pope crowned Holy Roman Kings for a reason, because they could not protect themselves.
People confuse the message with the reality, and that's sad. Heck, even Golarian clerics can pervert the message for their own use, sad to say, why can it not be assumed that some really bad priests in the church haven't as well?
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Forgive my husband, he enjoys watching Pat Condell's youtube channel.
I would say that the Catholic Church is LN.
As a Catholic, my take on the domains:
Law: Easy there, you got Deuteronomy, the 10 Commandments, and in John, you got the rapture if you fail to uphold them.
Community: Jesus turns water into wine at marriages, makes the loaves and fish feed 5000, and goes about preaching to his flock with an entourage of 13 guys and one Mary Magdeline. His charisma is dope, but he is both 100% God and Man, so... you'd expect that he'd have at least a +2 to charisma.
Healing: A given. Remove blindness/deafness, neutralize poison, Heal, etc.
Fire: In the bible, there's lots of it, it's God's favored method of punishing the wicked, and He used it to speak to Moses in the desert as well.
and finally
Knowledge: Precognition of his own death, handed down from his Father, but... yeah. Also, he could see into the hearts of men and knew their faults and how to approach them so that they would become better people by his example.
Favored weapon: Quarterstaff. Jesus was a shepherd, not a holy warrior. Peter, who founded the Church was not a warrior, either. The pope crowned Holy Roman Kings for a reason, because they could not protect themselves.
People confuse the message with the reality, and that's sad. Heck, even Golarian clerics can pervert the message for their own use, sad to say, why can it not be assumed that some really bad priests in the church haven't as well?
Good Post.
+1 on almost every point.
Forgive my husband, he enjoys watching Pat Condell's youtube channel.
My loathing of organized (and thus corruptible) religion far predates Pat's rantings. I watch him because of my opinions, not vice versa.
People confuse the message with the reality, and that's sad. Heck, even Golarian clerics can pervert the message for their own use, sad to say, why can it not be assumed that some really bad priests in the church haven't as well?
Indeed, which is why I made the distinction that ideals and history gives two very different takes on the same faith. This holds true of any faith in real life.
I can only second (and third, and fourth, and so on) the recommendation that you discuss that with your players beforehand.
While it's no problem to have nice in-game party "strife" because of different made-up, in-game faiths (like when a paladin of Iomedae and a cleric of Gorum constantly get in each other's hair over what is the "proper" way to conduct in a fight), things can turn real ugly if you bring in real-world religion.
You should make sure that
The fact that Christian faith has more facets than a bee-hive full of insect eyes doesn't exactly make things any easier here.
Honestly, I think the best bet is just to pick the version/image of Christianity you want in the game, and then create an in-game faith based on that picture. That way, you can idealise or demonise it to your liking and run a much reduced risk at ruffling someone's feathers.
My take on it (based on what you wrote in your original post):
The Glorious Crusade
If you prefer it to be a faith based on a single deity, get a name for that deity and rename the face accordingly. Maybe Iustus, Lux or Illu. Otherwise, this could be a faith based on a number of saints, some empyreal lords (sort of like archangels), and maybe even a deity or two thrown in.
The Glorious Crusade is the shining beacon in the darkness. Less concerned with converting non-believers into the fold, the Crusaders strive to vanquish darkest evil: They slay monsters preying on the innocent, find dark heretics who use dark cults and human sacrifice and bring them to justice, defend the weak and helpless against bloodthirsty raiders, and shield the souls of the faithful from temptations by fiends.
The Crusade can boast of their great number of Paladins, holiest of warriors that are a living embodiment of all of the faith's tenets. Beyond that, the faith attracts many clerics and inquisitors, the former to both heal and defend the flock, while the letter will seek out evil in its hidden lairs.
The faith is very popular with simple folk, and while it doesn't strive to put everyone on equal footing, the Shining Crusade's greatest goal is always to defend those who could not defend themselves, especially against supernatural and otherwise monstrous evil.
The basic alignment is LG, meaning divine casters need to be LN, LG or NG. Followers of the faith gain access to the domains of law, good, glory, healing, sun and protection, and the faith's favoured weapon is the longsword.
If you want their shining glory have a little tarnish, you could emphasise their insistence on castes, on everyone knowing his or her place. Also, you can let the faith have... outdated ideas on gender roles (like husbands are the ruler of the family, and woman aren't allowed to become paladins). And finally, you can make them (at least somewhat) racist, limiting their protection to humans, with some of the more extreme members actually counting the non-human races among the evils they have to protect their flock from.
Another way would be to emphasise their lack of compassion towards evil-doers, and an unwillingness to grant mercy or redemption. There are prescribed rituals and rules than can absolve people of sin, but for some sins, there are no rituals - if you cross that line once, your life (and probably soul) is forfeit. That means a killer will be hunted down and slain, even if he killed out of extreme grief or in a fit of profound anger, and would never have killed again. It also means that even if you were tricked into joining that evil cult of devil-worshippers, you'll burn at the stake for dark heresy.
Whether you want this added layer of complexity and nuance to your fantasy faith is your decision in the end. Of course, you can make these things be just dark rumour or slander, or have a split faith - one part of which is goodly and kind in all things, while the other is of the let them burn mentality, and a growing schism in the faith forcing everyone who happens to fall somewhere between to choose sides in a coming holy war within the church.
The best part of this is, of course, that you can always claim that this might be based on how some view the Christian/Catholic church, you don't have to make it a statement regarding how you see the actual church. It's all make-belief.
Long story short I have a player who just rolled up a half-orc inquisitor that is supposed to be reminiscent of something like van helsing and we were trying to pick a good religion for him within the campaign and none really seemed to fit. After some thought though it seems best to just use Catholicism (during the era of the crusades and the time following it) itself as it feels like a good fit to the character and the story they are getting into and had been meaning to bring it in anyways. My only problem right now though is picking out the domains and the favored weapon for the church and would like to get some suggestions from anyone who would be willing to lend a hand. what domains i feel fit and the favored weapon as it stands are as follows
Alignment LG
Domains:
Law
Good
Glory
Fire
Sun
Protection
Favored Weapon:
Longsword
I would have to disagree on the alignment. The Catholic Church would be Lawful Neutral to the extreme in my view, but this demonstrates the main problem with trying to shoehorn a real-world faith into a D&D-type world: those fantasy worlds treat goodness and whatnot as actual properties of a thing instead of value judgments made about that thing by others (as it is in the real world). You can't detect alignment in real life.
You might want to divide the domains and favored weapons up among various saints.Kinda good idea that.
In Roman Catholicism Saint Michael has four distinct roles.
First, he is the supreme enemy of Satan and the fallen angels. He vanquished Satan and ejected him from Paradise and will achieve victory at the hour of the final battle with Satan.
Secondly, he is the Christian angel of death: at the hour of death, Saint Michael descends and gives each soul the chance to redeem itself before passing, thus consternating the devil and his minions.
Saint Michael's third role is weighing souls in his perfectly balanced scales (hence the saint is often depicted holding scales) on Judgment Day.
And finally, Saint Michael is the Guardian of the Church. [11]
In the Catholic tradition, Saint Michael symbolizes the victory of good over evil, and he has been widely represented in Catholic art through the ages. Devotions to Saint Michael have a large Catholic following, and a large number of churches are dedicated to him worldwide.
So lets tackle the easy ones first.
Angel of death... Repose
Good over evil....Good
Guardian of the Churc ....that makes me think Protection
Victory over Satan ....Glory maybe?
weighing souls... that one I find tough... Law maybe?Greg
EDIT actually, I could see victory over satan being liberation upon further consideration. Weighing souls is still a tough one..maybe another reinforcement towards repose
Not really. Saints aren't worshiped. Though I suppose since they are prayed to as conduits for results it could work. But different saints will have different weapons.
I think Hu5tru's writeup is fairly solid, though I'm not sure about her inclusion of the Knowledge domain. Catholicism never seemed to me to be focused on the fostering of knowledge for its own sake. I'd likely replace it with the repose domain to reflect the church's strong focus on the soul and the afterlife.
I'm not sure how easy access it would be, but in Monte Cook's Ptolus setting there is a god/religion that I believe (don't remember if Monte ever came right out and said it) based on christianity/catholicism. Might want to look into that.
Going to agree with the folks here saying you should talk to your friends first and make sure everything is kosher (hehe). Personally I think adding in real world religions is about the second worst idea along these lines...the first being "lets make characters based off ourselves."
Three things you do not talk about at the dinner table (or game table).
(Real World)
Politics
Religion
Women
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So my big question is this:
With the HUGE ammount of fantasy worlds in D&D books why you don't just use a religion from one of those rather than opening up the real world religion can of worms?
Because this is a Pathfinder forum and not a religious discussion forum I'll keep my opinion on real world religions to myself. Even though I REALLY don't want to.
On a side note: Did you consider any of the lesser gods, etc that are in the campaign guide? I actually build a paladin of Kurgess for one of my friends that turned out really cool.
Personally I think adding in real world religions is about the second worst idea along these lines...the first being "lets make characters based off ourselves."
Actually, some of the best games my group has had were the "characters based off ourselves" Now every one of them involved a transformation.. so we did not have things like " But my strength is ..."
Greg
The pantheon of saints was created over time to replace the various religions converted, by book or by the sword. So they're very convertible. Take St. Michael Archangel, your basic war deity. They didn't even make the saint out of a real person. They basically said, oh, this angel guy's the real Thor, and by the way, that little hammer you guys wear, put a little peak on the top there, Thor - I mean St. Michael- likes that. Gives you something to poke the other guy with, too, when he rushes you in the middle of your swing.
I don't think that's remotely correct...
Let's say this, definitively, monotheistic religions do not work well in conversion to a fantasy polytheistic religion. Catholicism MIGHT work better than most if you split the Saints into demigods, but overall, it's not going to work. You have God. And that's it.
It really depends on where you want to go with this. First, as has been stated, make sure all your players are okay with this. Then consider whether you want to base this on:
Christ's actions and teachings. (NG)
The Catholic Church's claimed ideals during the dark/middle ages. (LG)
The Catholic Church's actions during the dark/middle ages. (LN)
The demonized version of the Catholic Church's actions during the dark/middle ages. (LE)
These would all be very different, not just in alignment but also in their domains and favored weapon. Until you decide this, you are going to have a lot of contradictory views based on how people see Catholicism.
Let's just say I disagree entirely with Cartigan.
There are so many different aspects to Christianity, and even within Catholicism itself, that you could have a varied "pantheon" (if you will) of Saints/Orders that range throughout the alignment Spectrum.
I've always wanted to do a Catholicism during the Middle Ages dominant religion for a game based on a mythohistorical Earth, but have honestly never been all that inclined to actually sit down and do it. But you can definitely do it.
Not just with the various Saints (although that is a great start) but the various Orders, too.
The pantheon of saints was created over time to replace the various religions converted, by book or by the sword. So they're very convertible. Take St. Michael Archangel, your basic war deity. They didn't even make the saint out of a real person. They basically said, oh, this angel guy's the real Thor, and by the way, that little hammer you guys wear, put a little peak on the top there, Thor - I mean St. Michael- likes that. Gives you something to poke the other guy with, too, when he rushes you in the middle of your swing.I don't think that's remotely correct...
Let's say this, definitively, monotheistic religions do not work well in conversion to a fantasy polytheistic religion. Catholicism MIGHT work better than most if you split the Saints into demigods, but overall, it's not going to work. You have God. And that's it.
You're incorrect.
Lots of the Catholic saints started as pagan gods. Yes, there were a few convenient miracles and overlay stories to explain that they weren't the same, but when the iconography, powers, and most of all name remained the same? Pretty obvious. Like this.
The goddess Brigid >>> St. Brigid
The goddess Horsel >>> St. Ursula
It gets even more complicated when you start layering in the New World, the slave trade, and the birth of Voudoun where various African gods got associated with Catholic saints due to similar iconography. For example, the Yoruba Orisha Chango became associated with the Catholic Santa Barbara because they both wear the same colors (red and white), have the same weapon (a sword), and favor the same miracle (zotting people they don't like with bolts of lightning).
Heck, even the Virgin Mary gets into the act. The Virgin of Guadelupe, patroness of Mexico? She had her miracle on the hill formerly sacred to the corn goddess Tonantzin. However, the Virgin Mary has a lot of names and titles, among them is "Nantzin." And it gets even more confusing because the main icon used for the Virgin of Guadelupe was a repurposed statue of Isis, explaining where she gets the cloak of stars and standing on the crescent moon....
And lest we forget, the 3.0 god Cuthbert started out as St. Cuthbert in 1st ed. and that's a direct lift of a Catholic saint without even a name change.
I ran my last campaign in a world with a Catholic flavor. I put in any good or neutral god I wanted and just had people call them saints. It worked just fine.
The pantheon of saints was created over time to replace the various religions converted, by book or by the sword. So they're very convertible. Take St. Michael Archangel, your basic war deity. They didn't even make the saint out of a real person. They basically said, oh, this angel guy's the real Thor, and by the way, that little hammer you guys wear, put a little peak on the top there, Thor - I mean St. Michael- likes that. Gives you something to poke the other guy with, too, when he rushes you in the middle of your swing.I don't think that's remotely correct...
Let's say this, definitively, monotheistic religions do not work well in conversion to a fantasy polytheistic religion. Catholicism MIGHT work better than most if you split the Saints into demigods, but overall, it's not going to work. You have God. And that's it.
You're incorrect.
Lots of the Catholic saints started as pagan gods. Yes, there were a few convenient miracles and overlay stories to explain that they weren't the same, but when the iconography, powers, and most of all name remained the same? Pretty obvious. Like this.
The goddess Brigid >>> St. Brigid
The goddess Horsel >>> St. Ursula
Also, no.
I have NO idea who Horsel is supposed to be. Ursula was basically pulled out of thin air, but wasn't based on any pagan deity. Brigid can be possibly based on a Irish deity of the same name. But so what? Then you are entirely missing the point of "lol, I want to do Catholicism as a religion!" It's a monotheistic religion. Your going "lol, look it subsumed pagan beliefs! It can totally be made a polytheistic fantasy religion!" falls on its face because the moment you do that, you are just creating a piecemeal pantheon of pagan deities, not Catholicism.
Sainthood is actually a specific level of service to a deity. Saints are basically a step below demigods as far as worship goes...only one 'saint' (Saint Sollars) in FR had any divine power. Sainthood is in the Book of Exalted Deeds, and there were some nifty saints from Dragon Magazine back in the day (St. Bane, patron of all who hunt undead, and St Ceril the Relentless, LN foe of Chaos)
I'll have to say your focus on the Catholic Church is going to matter on what era you use it in. The Catholic Church was an economic and political entity, as well as in the business of saving the souls of the unconverted. It's also populated by men who have no capability of seeing into the hearts of others, or being held to task by evils others cannot see.
The Catholic Church espouses the highest levels of morality in the west, some of them very unpopular at this time. In earlier times, it was as willing to wage war as any political state. The Church has been LG, LN and LE at various times or in various branches, with certain orders arguably N or NG out among the peasantry.
I'd go with Good, Community, Law, Repose. The different combinations probably cater to different orders and ideals of what is 'right' cause conflicts within the Church. LAw and Repose caters strongly to the noble mindset of heredity and place, as well as conversion and saving souls. Community and Law is all about serving the powers that be, and probably forms the backbone of the Church. Good and Law is for Paladins with truly noble goals, Community and Good for local parish priests whose main allegiance is to their people, Good and Repose forms the archivists and historians of the Church, Repose and Community would be teachers of the young and unconverted, trying to win them into the fold.
Monte Cook's 'Catholic' god considered all other gods as demons, regardless of their alignments and views. Without the power to back their claim of being 'the supreme god', it's just a blatant way to defame other divine beings. The Catholic Church truly would have some problems in a world where divine beings are equal, and the power of God does not cause Zeus to tremble in his toga.
==Aelryinth
The pantheon of saints was created over time to replace the various religions converted, by book or by the sword. So they're very convertible. Take St. Michael Archangel, your basic war deity. They didn't even make the saint out of a real person. They basically said, oh, this angel guy's the real Thor, and by the way, that little hammer you guys wear, put a little peak on the top there, Thor - I mean St. Michael- likes that. Gives you something to poke the other guy with, too, when he rushes you in the middle of your swing.I don't think that's remotely correct...
Let's say this, definitively, monotheistic religions do not work well in conversion to a fantasy polytheistic religion. Catholicism MIGHT work better than most if you split the Saints into demigods, but overall, it's not going to work. You have God. And that's it.
You're incorrect.
Lots of the Catholic saints started as pagan gods. Yes, there were a few convenient miracles and overlay stories to explain that they weren't the same, but when the iconography, powers, and most of all name remained the same? Pretty obvious. Like this.
The goddess Brigid >>> St. Brigid
The goddess Horsel >>> St. Ursula
It gets even more complicated when you start layering in the New World, the slave trade, and the birth of Voudoun where various African gods got associated with Catholic saints due to similar iconography. For example, the Yoruba Orisha Chango became associated with the Catholic Santa Barbara because they both wear the same colors (red and white), have the same weapon (a sword), and favor the same miracle (zotting people they don't like with bolts of lightning).
Heck, even the Virgin Mary gets into the act. The Virgin of Guadelupe, patroness of Mexico? She had her miracle on the hill formerly sacred to the corn goddess Tonantzin. However, the Virgin Mary has a lot of names and titles, among them is "Nantzin." And it gets even more confusing because the main...
Dont forget that the early church rather than competing with subsumed the other monotheistic religions of the time.
Sol Invictus (The Unconquered Sun)- is the reason we worship on sundays and the Syriac bishop Jacob Bar-Salibi wrote in the 12th century:
"It was a custom of the Pagans to celebrate on the same 25 December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and revelries the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnised on that day."
Constantine "the first Christian Emperor" worshipped Sol Invictus (A monotheistic religion) and it wasn't a huge step for him to convert to Christianity on his death bed as he understood the concept and it was in the teaching of the worship of Sol Invictus that all gods were an aspect of Sol (the sun). The church "borrowed" Sols titles as well, from the beginning of the 3rd century "Sun of Justice" appears as a title of Christ.
In a fantasy setting, characters would pray to their saints for power not because they are worshiping multiple deities but because by praying to a saint they are reaching out to a particular aspect of the divine, an aspect that they have a very personal and day-to-day relationship with. It's something very much like middle-management, but without a Pointy Haired God.
I've already outlined that fact.
That still has nothing to do with the fact going "Saints can create a Pantheon because Christianity subsumed pagan religions!" is patently false. That reasoning is not Catholicism; it's a piecemeal pantheon of those subsumed deities. Catholicism lends itself more than any other facet of Christianity to representing a faux pantheon under different major saints, but that doesn't make it a fantasy polytheistic religion. Trying to make it so is already a stretch.
And let's not even get into the fact that the entire pantheon would be "LG" or "NG."
So long that, of these aspects, Christ is foremost and closest to God.
Also, not Catholicism. In Catholicism, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is one being.
I have NO idea who Horsel is supposed to be. Ursula was basically pulled out of thin air, but wasn't based on any pagan deity. Brigid can be possibly based on a Irish deity of the same name. But so what? Then you are entirely missing the point of "lol, I want to do Catholicism as a religion!" It's a monotheistic religion. Your going "lol, look it subsumed pagan beliefs! It can totally be made a polytheistic fantasy religion!" falls on its face because the moment you do that, you are just creating a piecemeal pantheon of pagan deities, not Catholicism.
Thing is, Cartigen, that is how Catholicism and indeed much of western Christianity is constructed.
Catholicism has a number of 'cults' within it - all of them following saints. Many of those saints have assumed aspects of the pagan deities that they replaced. From a RPG point of view, there is functionally little difference between the cults of a monotheistic religion and the churches of a diversified pantheon. About the only principal difference is that any Catholic can worship in any Catholic church, chapel or cathedral no matter which saint it may be dedicated to.
Favored Weapon:
Longsword
A sword held with the hilt upright and blade downward is also a symbol of The True Cross, and peace.
How about if we said, In the fantasy setting one would pray to their saint in order for the saint to ask God for divine power?
Personally, I have no problem with Orders dedicated to Saints having different domains. I like it alot better than just tossing every domain on a one God. This is for a fantasy setting "based" on the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Well, I would immagine such a setting would also allow clerics of Satan and would put both in the same pantheon. Especially if other pantheons of gods exist, it really hampers trying to convert historical to fantasy. Think of it as a movie "based" on a true event. Watching it, one knows it is not historically accurate, but was changed to make it "entertaining" to a wider audience.
I try to view it more as what Kae Yoss was saying, let the real world inspire your thinking, but use a fantasy religion. So basically, it is very much like the Catholic church...but is NOT the Catholic church. :P
To argue a fantasy labeling system of alignment on real world religion... that path leads to flames, rightous anger and hurt feelings.
Greg
Perhaps you could have a mechanic where having enough books in one place creates an anti-magic field against both arcane and divine casters. An information singularity that disables magic of all kinds. The invention of the printing press would be the fricking apocalypse.
Ars magica?
Ms. Stevens, you reading this?
Greg
Also, try to have seven Domains, to represent the Seven Saintly Virtues.
I'm not sure what is worse... that this is showing signs of becoming a religious argument on page 1, or that I have agreed with Cartigan several times...
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thanks for all the post people it has been some great advice but i feel i need to answer some questions. first off the worry of offense was addressed a while ago as the party as is has no problem's with it. As for using real world mythology over fictitious my reasoning has always been that you have a deeper resource to mine as both a play and a GM so that if they have any questions on mythology or what these groups were like we can just look to history and their stories to give the answers (also it's fun to toss a book of roman mythology or a copy of the inferno at the players as one of the "modern books" of the times and have their characters and the npc's around them talking about it). Finally I follow the system that eberron laid down involving clerics and religion i.e. gods are distant and clerics and the followers of the church can be of any alignment (save paladins) so you can have CE clerics of a LG church (corrupted by the power, conned by evil beings, ardent bigots, etc) or LG clerics of a CE church (Seeks to uphold law and finds themselves compassionate and merciful in spite of the churches beliefs, maybe even believes themselves weaker for it) which always felt more realistic and added a nice dimension to churches within the world.
Now as for the domains was happy to hear all the suggestions to which i want to give special mention to those who mentioned the saints or the archangels as choices might implement that a little later right now i just want to nail down this group for now and will want to explain the domains
law & good had to do with what the group wants to accomplish and see's itself
fire had to do a lot with Hu5tru said earlier with fire being a lot of god modus aperendi as means for both punishment and communication with his people.
the Glory and sun domains come from either the glory of the mother church and sun as an extension of the fire domain but also in relation to the favored enemies of the church up until late in the form of the sentient undead which they have crusaded against for near a century.
Finally protection domain came into play to represent their need to try and protect the public and the citizenry from the evils they are trying to defeat. Now as for the longsword I felt it fit more for the group as is in that they are sort of the crusading semi militant arm of the church though i will say that there will probably be another facet of the church that represents the community and good ideologies of the church and would probably wield a quarterstaff or the mace as people had mentioned before
Thing is, Cartigen, that is how Catholicism and indeed much of western Christianity is constructed.
Except it's not. Catholicism is Catholicism, not GrecoRomanPaganCelticism.
Catholicism has a number of 'cults' within it - all of them following saints.
Wrong.
About the only principal difference is that any Catholic can worship in any Catholic church, chapel or cathedral no matter which saint it may be dedicated to.
Which is notably different than a diverse polytheistic pantheon. And no churches are dedicated to any saint. They might be named for a saint, but they aren't dedicated to or for any saint.
From a RPG point of view, there is functionally little difference between the cults of a monotheistic religion and the churches of a diversified pantheon.
I would have to disagree with this point, the differences may not show themselves all that much during normal times, but get into a time of war, famine, plague, or anything else that stresses the social fabric, and the differences become very apparent very quickly. The ones that come to mind off hand:
1)It is easier to organize and focus different sects of a unified church as there is a common power structure that all sects at least nominally follow. A single crusade, let alone multiple crusades, would not have been possible without this common structure. Even the orthodox churches of eastern Europe were not entirely outside of this power structure as they still fundamentally worshiped the same god. Also when faced with attacks from the Catholic Church, the two equally well organized religions, each with their own sects, survived and even thrived. The non unified ones disappeared pretty quickly.
2)Unified churches rarely get taken over by outside forces, they simply disintegrate under their own weight. Eventually there gets to be enough sects that when a major catastrophe occurs or a combination of catastrophes occur, like the plague or a mini ice age right after an unusually warm period, people lose faith in the overarching vision and seek solace in the teaching of the individual sect that actually most effective at dealing with the crisis. If the right person comes along during one of these periods, as Martin Luther did, it can cause a major split; otherwise, the beliefs and practices of the most effective sect are fully incorporated into the body of shared beliefs and practices and life continues. Unified sects on the other hand, can be subsumed by outside forces with relative ease, as the history of the celts and their druids, as well as the other "pagan" religions that christianity absorbed show quite vividly, though internal consistency was much higher due to the smaller numbers involved.
I would put the all the Abrahamic religions as LN alignment wise. Each puts forth their own rules for how to reach salvation, condemning those who do not follow them to eternal damnation and despair. While most of them preach goodness to it's members, most members of all of them don't really care about how their actions affect people of different cultures and religions. Domains: Law, Community, Nobility, Knowledge (if only to hoard unpleasant knowledge from its followers), and Protection (of their own members), and War (against the infidels).
Indeed, the church states that there is one god only, even if he appears in a trinity. Saints and Archangels and all this may be adressed in prayer, but they are not "lesser gods". Nevertheless, in some traditions, archangels and saints are venerated much as a lesser god, and the prayers offered to a specific saint contain the hope that the saint helps the praying man, often in a specific endeavour of which the saint has patronage. For example, St. James is prayed to asking for safe travel, and pious people often have a blessed plaque of him in their car. This is IMO similar to the (hypothetical) veneration of a lesser god of safe travel. To put this in a gaming context, the saints and angels would not have divine power of their own, but rather, channel it from the all-encompassing god. Rules-wise it would be no difference. My guess is that the veneration of saints is necessary for humans, as the concept of an all-powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent god is too abstract to truly relate to. Saints make this much easier, as many of them were (fallible) humans.
Stefan
Purely mechanical rules wise, it might not make much different, but in setting up the relationships between the various gods, saints, and angels, it makes a big difference in the world that is ultimately created and how that world is shaped.
Except it's not. Catholicism is Catholicism, not GrecoRomanPaganCelticism.
Thing is, Cartigen, that is how Catholicism and indeed much of western Christianity is constructed.
So why Christmas Trees? (a pagan symbol)
Why All Saints Day? (a pagan festival)Why Easter? (the festival of the fertility goddess Eostr, whose symbols were the egg and the hare)
Why Christmas on the 25th of December? (the day on which the god Mithras is reborn to a virgin three days after his death at Yule)
Why so very many pagan deities that were turned into either saints or demons in Catholicism?
Catholicism is not 'GrecoRomanPaganCelticism' but it sure contains an awful lot of it wrapped up in different packaging.
Catholicism has a number of 'cults' within it - all of them following saints.Wrong.
You may wish to believe that, but Catholics are accused of idolatry by other Christian sects because of their veneration of saints. What are the Jesuits or Opus Dei if not sects? They are not cults by the modern definition, but that definition is not the historical one - in modern times we tend to use 'cult' to refer to a religious movement focussed around a single individual - like the Branch Davidians or the Heaven's Gate organisations. Historically, a cult is a movement or following within a religion. For example, the Greek Pantheon is a religion, and the Cult of Hepheastus is a group within that religion with it's own churches, quirks, mysteries and rules.
About the only principal difference is that any Catholic can worship in any Catholic church, chapel or cathedral no matter which saint it may be dedicated to.Which is notably different than a diverse polytheistic pantheon. And no churches are dedicated to any saint. They might be named for a saint, but they aren't dedicated to or for any saint.
Historically, less than you might think - I was making the point about D&D pantheons, not real ones. Pagan deities tend to be interchangeable and not very jealous; if you worship Mars in Rome, you prey at a shrine to Toutatis in Gaul; you may be a member of the Cult of Isis, but you can send a prayer to Juno if that suits your need.
So not so different after all in some respects.
Sunshadow21 has a good point in that centralised control has a big effect on the organised structure of such a church, though. This is also why Catholicism has a lot of political clout both historically and to a certain extent in the modern world, perhaps more than any other organised religion.
Why so very many pagan deities that were turned into either saints or demons in Catholicism?Catholicism is not 'GrecoRomanPaganCelticism' but it sure contains an awful lot of it wrapped up in different packaging.
You are missing the point entirely. It includes them but it isn't them.
