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nope. A horse animal companion only gets what's listed for horse animal companions. No advanced template, no bestiary feats, nothing, no extra anything not explicitly listed.
Your horse ends up with the same stats as a advanced template bestiary horse (the "heavy warhorse") after a few levels anyhow (except without an unnecessarily high cha).
Its more like "hey, I'm a melee and my pet is as awesome as a druids. Beats a regular horse"
<right stuff>
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cavalier horse eventually far outstrips the Beastiary one, in our current game the cavaliers mount has 70 hps I think
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also, if i'm reading it right even, a 1st level horse should be able to carry 456 lbs as a light load. (76 lbs, x 2 for being large, and then x 3 for 4 legged large creature). Look at carrying capacity.
Unless you have a morbidly obese cavalier, the horse can carry you in armor, its barding, and the kitchen sink no problem
Hmmm...
agreed its just an animal companion
also, if i'm reading it right even, a 1st level horse should be able to carry 456 lbs as a light load. (76 lbs, x 2 for being large, and then x 3 for 4 legged large creature). Look at carrying capacity.
Unless you have a morbidly obese cavalier, the horse can carry you in armor, its barding, and the kitchen sink no problem
No, it's half that. The x2 is for a "large bipedal creature"; the quadruped multipliers already account for size, so you only get the x3, giving a light load of 228 (which is easy to go over even without barding).
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Like they have said above, you get only the things listed on animal companions for horse:
Horse
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained.
Then you can pick any 1 feat and 2 skills for level 1.
Ok, so I'm going over my DM's head on this one.... this said I'm a DM so I never do this, and disdain the thought of it.
I'm playing a Cavalier. My DM is using the Horse Stats from the PF Core Rulebook. Should he not be using the stats AND Feats from the Bestiary?
I would think so. The idea is a Cavalier gets the Horse as written but with bonuses.Now this said, add in the advanced template
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/horse/heavy-horse
Should this not be what a Cavalier starts with?!
A Heavy Horse, with bonuses so he is what the class is intended to be, a Knightly Horse Lord.
I'm playing according to my DMs ruling, and my horse with Chain Shirt Barding is almost so encumbered that it moves 35ft... less than a Barbarian. It is not nearly as strong as a heavy warhorse. so it is basically a wimp. Thankfuly it doesn't need feed to live.It all seems so wrong for a class that does not cast spells like a Druid (uber-powerful) to suffer under pure druid animal-companion rulz :( :(
Hey look, I'm a Druid, my Horse is as good as yours Cavalier-horse-lord, and I cast uber-powerful spells.... u lose Cavalier.
to quote
"Should a cavalier’s mount die, the cavalier may find another mount to serve him after 1 week of mourning. This new mount does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time the cavalier gains a level."
I'm sure if my horse died, I would spend a week and the money to buy a better horse. Heck if I had the money I'd find a nice farm for my horse and buy another, skipping the unsightly death part.
The biggest slap in the face to cavaliers is Paladins receive a Heavy Horse, with intelligence too boot.
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to quote
"Should a cavalier’s mount die, the cavalier may find another mount to serve him after 1 week of mourning. This new mount does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time the cavalier gains a level."
I'm sure if my horse died, I would spend a week and the money to buy a better horse. Heck if I had the money I'd find a nice farm for my horse and buy another, skipping the unsightly death part.
The biggest slap in the face to cavaliers is Paladins receive a Heavy Horse, with intelligence too boot.
Actually the pally's horse is exactly the same except for the 6 int and share spells.
Nothing gets templates.
"The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) "
"The statistics above are for a typical riding horse, called by some a “light horse.” Some horses are larger and heartier, bred for labor such as pulling plows or carriages. These horses are called “heavy horses” and gain the advanced simple template, a bite attack, increased hoof damage, and can be specifically trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/horse
"The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) ""The statistics above are for a typical riding horse, called by some a “light horse.” Some horses are larger and heartier, bred for labor such as pulling plows or carriages. These horses are called “heavy horses” and gain the advanced simple template, a bite attack, increased hoof damage, and can be specifically trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill.
This has been discussed in another thread, that was a typo. The paladins horse uses the animal companion rules with a 6 int.
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This has been discussed in another thread, that was a typo. The paladins horse uses the animal companion rules with a 6 int.
"The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) ""The statistics above are for a typical riding horse, called by some a “light horse.” Some horses are larger and heartier, bred for labor such as pulling plows or carriages. These horses are called “heavy horses” and gain the advanced simple template, a bite attack, increased hoof damage, and can be specifically trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill.
+1
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This has been discussed in another thread, that was a typo. The paladins horse uses the animal companion rules with a 6 int.
"The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) ""The statistics above are for a typical riding horse, called by some a “light horse.� Some horses are larger and heartier, bred for labor such as pulling plows or carriages. These horses are called “heavy horses� and gain the advanced simple template, a bite attack, increased hoof damage, and can be specifically trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill.
+1
You don't get the heavy warhorse stat block (from the Bestiary which you should ignore when stating up an animal companion) then add the druid animal companion table progression to its stats. Your horse follows the same rules governing an animal companion, just as a paladin, ranger, and druid. Do not compare the combat trained heavy horse to the animal companion horse, they're two different things.
A Ist level PC can't generally afford a combat trained heavy warhorse (300gp) and the designers no doubt intended it that way. A 1st level fighter mounted on a "store-bought" heavy horse (without combat training = 200gp spending his initial wealth) wouldn't stand a chance against a 1st level cavalier mounted (because his horse is combat trained) who is better on horseback, has his order's abilities, his challenge and tactician. Who cares if it doesn't have the initial Str you want, it still can bear you, your armor, and charge into battle and it gains ability improvements rapidly, your 2HD horse from the Bestiary just remains stagnant. Just think of it as a cavalier; you saw potential in this particular steed and knew one day it would rule all other horses and surpass them in ability. By 2nd, 3rd and future levels beyond it's definitely better than this horse anyway having more HD (hit points, yay I can survive!), better BAB better CMB/CMD, better saves, better natural armor, more feats, more tricks, devotion, multiattack, evasion (look out fireball!) and improved evasion. Your Bestiary heavy warhorse just has Run and Endurance and 19hp that's it, no advancement....and while he may be able to carry a heavy load at 1st and 2nd level (Str-wise only), he sucks thereafter and will die many deaths over and over again.
You don't win, this is an RPG, not a board game.
EDIT: Play a cavalier for flavor. Also, they get abilities nobody else does.
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Cavalier's challenge works against everything, not just evil things.
Because the Cavalier gets a good horse at level 1 that becomes a great horse at level 20.
Because the Cavalier doesn't get magic, and some people prefer to be Batman rather than Superman.
Because a Cavalier can be eeevil
Because a Cavalier gets bonus tactical feats, and if you increase your horse's INT to 3 so can your horse :D
There's plenty of great tactical reasons to be a Cavalier, and the Cavalier in my Kingmaker game seems to be competing very well in regards to damage etc against the Druid. Just be patient and eventually you'll get the horse you always dreamed of.
Hope that helps.
C'MON DUDES.... the idea of the class is that it is a HORSE LORD!!! This class rules with horses, without effort. It doesn't need to compete vs. Druids or Paladins, it is all about the rider and the f!~@ing horse. Common' sense pls oh pls.
The other 2 classes get SPELLS.... How do u win... with the spells.... um yeah spells make this game hard.... geee.
Can ANYONE provde a tactical reason to play a Cavalier?!?!?
Sure can:
Level 20 spirited charge for x5 damage with a lance including the mounts strength and a free combat maneuver with challenge on any creature I want as opposed to a limited subset for paladins. Lack of alignment restrictions and ability to use any gear I want too.
The ability to grant feats to my allies and have more skill points than the fighter.
I'm very happy with the Cavalier and not all classes are balanced, but to use the Rogue as a comparison is laughable. As far as being a horse lord, my belief is that the game designers wanted to create a class that wasn't solely useful on horseback but could also have abilities independent and beyond his mount.
I think all this bluster comes from the initial Str stat of a combat -trained heavy horse in the Bestiary, -big deal it can haul a bigger cart of hay at 1st level. The cavalier's mount becomes far superior in a short time and leaves that horse in the dust. It will have better abilities, more HD/hp, better BAB, better saves, more feats, skill points, more tricks, plus all the other things I've mentioned in an earlier post.
If you really want a "horse lord cavalier" start him up with the human racial trait: Eye for Talent (+2 to Sense Motive and +2 to one ability score [Str, let's say since you're so hung up on it] of your animal companion), then feats like: Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample, Unseat, Mounted Shield, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Overrun, Indomitable Mount, Rhino Charge, Mounted Onslaught, Massed Charge, Charge Through, Mounted Blade, Greater Overrun, Taldan Knight, Wheeling Charge and if your cavalier is watered down by multiclassing try Boon Companion to get the most out of your mount.
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Yeah, I'm aware there is no winning, but ideally classes are balanced vs. each other. I'm sure we've all seen the classic play "Rogue vs. the Wizard". Very tragic indeed.
When DMing I have to engage ppl to play Rogues and create world based penalties for Wizards (spellcasters) so as to balance the classes, because why bother with the Rogue when a Wizard can just Knock that door and then Invisibility. I'm seeing the same situation with the Cavalier.
What's tragic is the propagation of this misperception. Your players are fairly inexperienced I take it?
A rogue wields wands and scrolls to cast all the same spells a wizard can. Why does the party need a wizard when there is a rogue in the party? Hell, why do you need a cleric. Load up on cure wands and wands of scorching ray (that the rogue can sneak attack with even) and you're all good. Heck, no need for casters in the party at all past 5th level with any character with a good Use Magic Device skill. (5 ranks, +3 class, +2 cha = +10; 50% wand usage per round).
Gratz wiz, you just blew a whole spell slot out of a small handful per day to open that door. Too bad it was trapped. Where's you're cleric to detect traps? Too bad neither one of you yahoos can disable magical traps. *rolleyes*
Cavalier mount is fine. You seem to enjoy discounting everything else the class provides. You want an uber pet try playing the summoner and ride that.
in our lvl 9 game the halfling cavalier feeds potions of fly to his wolf. pretty sure flying is actually the dumbest thing a wizard can do when cavalier are Bout. you really desperately want walls between you and if there is a clear line the wizard has a good chance of being introduced to the lance as a save or die effectvassuming the few hundred damage of the charge doesn't kill you.
I'm pretty sure a lvl 20 mount likely has a permeably item.
in our lvl 9 game the halfling cavalier feeds potions of fly to his wolf. pretty sure flying is actually the dumbest thing a wizard can do when cavalier are Bout. you really desperately want walls between you and if there is a clear line the wizard has a good chance of being introduced to the lance as a save or die effectvassuming the few hundred damage of the charge doesn't kill you.
I'm pretty sure a lvl 20 mount likely has a permeably item.
Hilarious, Now all I can think of is the uber Arch Mage flying around yelling "Bad Doggy, BAD!" as he's chase by a flying wolf with a pissed off halfling on the back.
Hilarious, Now all I can think of is the uber Arch Mage flying around yelling "Bad Doggy, BAD!" as he's chase by a flying wolf with a pissed off halfling on the back.in our lvl 9 game the halfling cavalier feeds potions of fly to his wolf. pretty sure flying is actually the dumbest thing a wizard can do when cavalier are Bout. you really desperately want walls between you and if there is a clear line the wizard has a good chance of being introduced to the lance as a save or die effectvassuming the few hundred damage of the charge doesn't kill you.
I'm pretty sure a lvl 20 mount likely has a permeably item.
or Greater Dispel Magic.
or Greater Dispel Magic.Hilarious, Now all I can think of is the uber Arch Mage flying around yelling "Bad Doggy, BAD!" as he's chase by a flying wolf with a pissed off halfling on the back.in our lvl 9 game the halfling cavalier feeds potions of fly to his wolf. pretty sure flying is actually the dumbest thing a wizard can do when cavalier are Bout. you really desperately want walls between you and if there is a clear line the wizard has a good chance of being introduced to the lance as a save or die effectvassuming the few hundred damage of the charge doesn't kill you.
I'm pretty sure a lvl 20 mount likely has a permeably item.
well in the example given he is flying casting meteor shower and wishes as he destroyed whole cities. not floating abovevwith a readied action to counter 1pc in a party.
I was simply trying to illustrate that high level cavaliers are dangerous. the counter them though is to be on the ground with obstacles separating you. the player of the halfling and I were trying to figure out the costs for a lance that did pass wall to solve this problem.
My problem is what happens when the level 20 Cavalier's horse dies?
"Should a cavalier’s mount die, the cavalier may find another mount to serve him after 1 week of mourning. This new mount does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time the cavalier gains a level."
So, a 4th level cavalier reforges the link to his mount in a couple of weeks, when he hits 5th level. A 12th level more experienced cavalier takes a couple of months to reforge the link, and the 20th level cavalier is SoL and can never re-forge the link, time to retire broken and lonely...
I brought this up during the playtest and Jason either ignored it, or didn't notice it. It is most certainly a flaw in the Cavalier in general.
or Greater Dispel Magic.Hilarious, Now all I can think of is the uber Arch Mage flying around yelling "Bad Doggy, BAD!" as he's chase by a flying wolf with a pissed off halfling on the back.in our lvl 9 game the halfling cavalier feeds potions of fly to his wolf. pretty sure flying is actually the dumbest thing a wizard can do when cavalier are Bout. you really desperately want walls between you and if there is a clear line the wizard has a good chance of being introduced to the lance as a save or die effectvassuming the few hundred damage of the charge doesn't kill you.
I'm pretty sure a lvl 20 mount likely has a permeably item.
well in the example given he is flying casting meteor shower and wishes as he destroyed whole cities. not floating abovevwith a readied action to counter 1pc in a party.
I was simply trying to illustrate that high level cavaliers are dangerous. the counter them though is to be on the ground with obstacles separating you. the player of the halfling and I were trying to figure out the costs for a lance that did pass wall to solve this problem.
Adamantine lance and just slam it through the wall LOL. Or get a ghost touch weapon and become ethereal.
Number 6 Wrote:
"Ahh yes, researching Min-Maxing capabilities. Something I'd like to avoid."
Hardly Min-Maxing, it's in the APG.
Number 6 Wrote:
"I just think a Cavalier ideally would have a horse that can carry the rider in Heavy Plate, while wearing at least medium barding at early levels."
You can; stat the horse up and look at encumbrance. The "traditional/historical" knight didn't traverse his armored destrier across the countryside for miles because it was meant solely for battle instead he rode his palfrey/riding horse with a small retinue. When the time came the cavalier and his mount would be suited up and charge into battle. Sure the horse will have a light or medium load, but big deal it can still charge and has no attack penalties.
Animal Companion/Cavalier Horse:
1st level = 16 Str, 13 Dex, and 15 Con
3rd: +1 bonus to Str and Dex = 17
4th: +2 bonus to Str and Con and a +1 bonus to one ability score (let's say Str again) = Str 20, Dex 14, and Con 17
6th: +1 bonus to Str and Dex = Str 21, Dex 15, and Con 17
9th: +1 bonus to Str and Dex and a +1 bonus to one ability score (let's say Str again) = Str 23, Dex 16, and Con 17
12th: +1 bonus to Str and Dex = Str 24, Dex 17, and Con 17
14th: +1 bonus to one ability score (let's say Str again) = Str 25, Dex 17, and Con 17
18th: +1 bonus to Str and Dex = Str 26, Dex 18, and Con 17
20th: +1 bonus to one ability score (let's say Str again) = Str 27, Dex 18, and Con 17
Number 6 Wrote:
"Also conceive of Knights not being 20th Level. Those are human-gods. A "normal" journeyman cavalier level range would be around what ... 2nd to 5th level? A normal 5th Cavalier should be far more capable than a 5th level fighter with a bankroll to buy a Heavy Horse."
A normal 5th level Cavalier IS more capable on horseback than his fighter counterpart, and his horse is waay better than Bestiary combat-trained heavy horse even at lower levels.
Don't make me stat up a 5th level Cavalier and mount vs. a 5th level fighter and mount...I'll do it.., Oh yes I'll do it.
It isn't just about feed, it's about barding and heavy armor. It kinda sucks to have to move slower than a dwarf for wearing Heavy Armor and Medium Barding as a Knight... go dwarves.Also conceive of Knights not being 20th Level. Those are human-gods. A "normal" journeyman cavalier level range would be around what ... 2nd to 5th level? A normal 5th Cavalier should be far more capable than a 5th level fighter with a bankroll to buy a Heavy Horse.
Curiosity... how much money does your Cavalier have at low level? Full plate is 1500 gp, medium chainmail barding is 4 times chainmail. That's 2,100 gp worth of gear, counting nothing else. If you're low level I'd say medium armor and barding is as good as you're going to have (Chainmail armor and barding would total 750 gp, scalemail armor and barding only 250 gp). Eventually you'll want your mount in heavy plate barding and that's 6,000 gp...
By the time you can afford heavy armor and heavy barding and your mount has the appropriate proficiencies (4th level plus) your mount should be capable of carrying the load. If you want to carry excess equipment, buy an extra horse (regular), or just ride the riding horse and switch to the mount for combat. Your "journeyman Cavalier" should be able to live up to your expectations, I just wouldn't count on it at below 4-5th level.
My 2 cp.