Last month's Pathfinder subscription, the level 10 Iconics. I'm looking at it, and kinda going, wth?
Deconstructing Valeros==================
So, I’m looking at this level 10 version of Valeros, the iconic fighter from Serpent’s Skull. Now, I know that he’s not supposed to be uber…after all, he’s made with the iconic stat array. But I’m also of the belief that a character should at least be playable and able to do the things that is required of his class, with defenses sufficient to stop those things that try to stop him from doing that.
I’m pretty sure Valeros falls down on all counts: Proper gear, proper stat allocation, and proper feats. I mean, there’s making a gimp, and there’s making a gimp people are supposed to hold as iconic?
To be sure, Serpent’s Skull is neither a timed adventure nor a chain of encounters. In essence, most of the encounter zones are fought 1/day, and consist of one or two fights. Sustained effort isn’t so much a problem, but still.
Builds!--------------------
For all the iconics, a 15/14/13/12/10/8 stat blocks was assumed…except for the wizard. He used a 16/15/13/11/9/9, but that’s a separate issue.
Valeros is assigned 15 dex, 14 St, 13 Int, 12 Con, 10 Cha and 8 Wis. Most character builders are going to look askew at this…why isn’t Str highest, why is Int at 13, and why is Wis dumped instead of Cha, given a Fighter’s low Base will save?
Valeros is given +2 to Str for levels 4 and 8, and has a belt of +2 Str/Con. His final stats are Str 18, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 13 Wis 8 Cha 10
His Dex is 17 because he needs it to be a Two weapon fighter and take Improved TWF. His Int is 13 to give him access to Expertise. His Wis is 8 instead of Cha…because a +1 to Intimidate is more important then +1 to Will saves and +1 to Survival and Perception?
His Expertise gives him the option of -3 to hit and +3 to AC. He has no other feats that operate off Expertise, and given his -1 to -2 to hit over a more focused fighter, this feat is largely extraneous. He needs an AC bonus all the time, not some of the time, and certainly not at his expense to hit. Most of the boss monsters in the AP aren’t going to have any more problems hitting him at AC 28 then at his default of AC 25. Also, he has no acrobatics ranks, so his defensive fighting skills to further increase his defenses are stuck at -4 th, +2 AC for Defensive Fighting.
With 14 Con and average Hit points, he should be at approximately 80 hit points at level 10. With 95, and no Toughness feat, his Favored Class bonus was put into hit points. This is borne out by the fact he has 4 skills at max: 2 for Fighter class, 1 for human, and +1 for Int 13.
Due to the ‘level 10 world’ he’s in, there’s no benefit for changing Valeros’ Str and Dex…15 and 14 will provide the exact same benefits. The only elective here is the +2 Starter boost, which is assigned to Dex purely to get him ITWF. However, if you plan to hit level 12, there is a substantial boost if he starts with a 15 Str…he would get a 20 str at level 12. Since he’s already ignoring his armor training, this provides a big incentive to swap the scores.
Saves=================
Valoran’s saves rather suck. No, they do suck.
He has a cloak +1, +3 to Reflex from his Dex, -1 to his Will from Wis, and +2 to his Fort save, resulting in a final tally of +10 Fort, +7 Reflex, and +3 Will, +6 vs Fear.
Ugh.
Most of the fortitude saves at level 10 are in the DC 20 area because they are frequently based off monsters’ Con scores, meaning he has about a 50/50 chance to make them. Reflex saves are less common, but assuming an 18 DC base, again a 50/50 chance.
Will saves. Slow Spells are minimum 15…he’s going to fail, more often than not. Dominate Person is DC 18…he’s going to fail 70% of the time, at LEAST. Fear spells, DC 16, he’ll only fail half the time.
Brave Fighter, my arse. His DC to resist an Intimidate check from the monkeys is 19 (bravery only adds to will saves). Basically, at the start of every fight with the charud, he’s going to be shaking in the knees and -2 to hit. In that group, the FIGHTER is the easiest one to intimidate!
EVERYONE knows Fighters have to take Iron Will. Reflex is damage, you can soak it. But in any serious fight, Valeros is going to get charmed, can’t do anything about it, and will then be used against the rest of the party. Against a Dominate Person from a creature with a 20 stat, he has a whopping 15% chance of SUCCESS. In an AP with constant will saves against the Paranoia effects of the spores, you can basically write him off…he’s just sunk.
Ugh. In every spellcasting fight, he’s worse than useless. Unless he can reach the enemy and stop them from casting, he’s going to be turned against the rest of the party…that’s worse than useless, that’s a detriment.
And this is an Iconic?
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Gear: ===========
+2 Breastplate: +5 AC, +3 Dex, +2 Enhanced. This is nice for his default Dex, but his Armor Training of +2 DEx limit is completely wasted!!!…he may as well not have the benefit!! On the other side of the equation, his ability to move at normal speed in heavy armor is ALSO wasted!! So…why have class benefits that are completely ignored and not made use of?!?
+2 Icy Burst longsword: His primary weapon, he has focus/spec in it, and Heavy Blades +2 weapon training. However, he has no feat to deal with DR. While Cold Iron and Silver can be alchemically mended by adjusting his gear sheet for minor cost, he also has the option of making his weapon adamantine. Also, his low stats for Str send him already behind the curve as far as hitting and doing damage…why is this +4 weapon Icy Burst? Especially for a TWF that already has problems hitting stuff? For 32k, it’s his biggest investment…and it’s subpar for a TWF. Especially one with low defenses. There's no defense for not having a weapon that either overcomes DR of some sort or is hard to break.
His secondary weapons are a +1 Short Sword and a +1 Str Longbow. The +1 Shortsword effectively does the following:
Deals 1-6 +4 dmg (+2 Str, +1 Enhance, +1 small blades). At the same time, it imposes a -2 to hit on his longsword, and is already at a further -2 vs main hand because of secondary nature. It grants him a +1 Shield AC while in hand. He does get a second attack with it, if he gets a full attack, but he doesn’t have Double Slice, so it’s otherwise useless to him unless the enemy stands still to get a full attack action…and Valeros would likely do more dmg just using a 3 pt Power attack for +6 damage, and a +1 Shield would net him +2 AC, and free up a feat. If he spiked the shield and took Shield for his second weapon, he’d do 1 pt less dmg for +1 higher AC, and one less feat, subbing Improved Shield Bash for TWF.
Actually, he should probably drop the TWF shtick entirely, and use his Longbow for secondary weapon. Getting d8+7 ranged attack is probably more useful than a d6+4 attack at -4, and its iterative at -9.
BUT, since we know he’s going to stick with it, we’ll make other arrangements.
Feats===============
Weapon Focus/Spec/Improved Critical, Longsword: This clearly illustrates that we want our attacks to be made with the longsword. Ntoe that a longsword can be wielded two handed if you don't want the +1 AC for a second weapon, giving another +2 dmg.
Disruptive, Step Up: These are intended to make it difficult for a Caster threatened by Valeros to get a spell off, and to follow one that tries to move out of reach. Thematic, they stay.
TWF, TWdefense, ITWF: These three feats together provide a three feat cost for little benefit…the damage from the secondary weapon is about half of the primary, doesn’t share in the spec feats, is an inferior magical weapon, and a heavy shield provides better AC, and a light shield the same AC, for no feat cost. It also imposes a stat requirement of 17 Dex, which wastes points elsewhere.
Expertise: This feat has a utility level of near 0. It’s not enough to stop him from getting hit, and with his already low TH capability, renders him problematic in combat. It also imposes a Stat req of 13 Int. Ugh.
Dodge: +1 AC is good.
Improved Init: We’re hoping to beat the spellcasters, because if they get a spell off, we’ve got problems.
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Changes to make Valeros actually playable.
1) He has to raise his defenses. His cloak has to go to a minimum of +2, he needs to get rid of his Wis penalty, and he needs Iron Will. These aren’t even debatable. His Will save alone makes him a detriment to the party.
2) He has to actually make use of his class abilities. As it stands, he’s not using his armor training at ALL. In short, he needs to upgrade to a set of full plate +2. He still retains use of his Max Dex of +3, and armor training allows him to move at the full rate. Note that we are ‘existing’ in a level 10 world here…there’s no way he was going to upgrade from previous adventures regardless. So, set him at level 10 with proper gear.
3) Get rid of ITWF…it was never going to hit, anyways. Take base Dex down to 14. Get Gauntlets of Dexterity +2 for 4k, and shift the +2 racial to Strength. Lower Int to 12 and get rid of Expertise. Raise Con to 14 base from 12. Swap Wis and Cha. This shift results in Str 20, Dex 16, Con 16 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8. His Dex bonus and Int bonus do not change, but his Str score improves by +2, Con by +2, and Will save by +1. He nets a -1 to his Intimidate check.
4) We need more gold. Take the +2 Icy Burst sword down to a straight +3 Weapon, and make it adamantine, thus bypassing all material DR (I’d make it +1 and ask the priestess for a GMW to free up some gold, but the Pearl of Power to do this would wipe out the savings unless she was generous). Cost is 32k, goes down to 18k, freeing up 14k. Adamantine is -3k. 11k to play with.
Improve Cloak of resistance to +3. This costs 8000 gp, leaving us 3k to play with. That’s -1000 less then Gauntlets of Dexterity +2, but it’s close enough to not matter.
If we make it a +2 weapon, that frees up 10k more…enough to make your shortsword a +1 Defender, and buy Gaunts of Dex free and clear on top, if you are so inclined. Actually, I think we’ll go with that, since we’re already getting a +1 for 20 str. It also leaves enough for 2k for an Amulet of Nat AC +1.
5) We have freed up 2 feats: Expertise is gone, and Improved Two Weapon Fighting is gone. We’re going to replace them with Iron Will and Power Attack.
6) Give him some minor toy that casts Endure Elements on him 1/day so he can ignore the heat in heavy armor.
7) (Optional) Grant him an Achievement feat (note, he doesn’t even get a trait!). I suggest the History of Scars one for -2 to Bluff/Diplomacy, +2 Nat AC from being a punching bag.
These changes result in the following:
Str: 18 -> 20 Net Bonus: +1 th/dmg
Dex: 17 -> 16 Same bonus
Con: 14 -> 16 Bonus +1
Int: 13 -> 12 Bonus the same
Wis: 8 -> 10 Net +1
Cha: 10 -> 8 Net -1 (irrelevant)
Hit Points: 105 (net +10)
Armor Class: 29 (+11 Armor (full plate +2), +3 Dex, +1 Nat Ac, +1 Shield/TWD, +1 Defending, +1 Dodge, +1 Deflection) (Note: This constant AC is higher than he could have gotten with Expertise!) (net bonus, +4)
Attack: Longsword, d8 +11/17-20 (Improved Critical, Str+5, Spec+2, Sword+2, Train +2), +20 or +20/+15(+10 BAB, +5 Str, +1 WF, +2 Sword, +2 Training). Instead of TWF, he’ll just Power Attack with his Main sword for -3 Th, +6 dmg. His odds are better, and he can crit. (net +2/+2, but no frost dmg)
Against truly low AC foes, he can attack once with his Short Sword +1 Defender on a full attack action for d6 + 3, +16 to hit (the bonus is always used for AC). Against ranged foes, he can attack at +14 with his longbow for d8 + 6 dmg.
Saves:
Fort: +13 (+7 Class, +3 resistance, +3 Con) Net bonus: +3
Reflex: +9 (+3 Class, +3 Dex, +3 Resistance) net Bonus: +2
Will: +10 (+3 Class, +4 Iron Will, +3 Resistance), +13 vs Fear (+3 Bravery). Note he’s got some real work ahead of him trying to keep this save viable at higher levels. Net Bonus: +7!!!!
In the real world, he’d swap TWDefense for Improved Shield Bash and use a light spiked Shield +3. AC would improve by +2, dmg would be the same, getting him to 31 AC, and leaving the door open to Shield Mastery in two levels, taking Shield Slam at 11 and Shield Mastery at 12.
Note that Mithral armor is effectively useless until Dex reqs exceed armor training. At +2 Dex/Armor Training and a 16 Dex, he’s maxing out his AC benefit with this, and has no movement penalties. He’s at -2 on his climb skill in full plate…hardly a massively valuable skill. It’s highly unlikely he’ll be needing Mithral until 15th level, and his Dex score would need to be 22 at that point to require it. Unless he gets an inherent bonus, he’s better off with Adamantine. At level 11 his Armor training hits +3, so he can make use of an 18 Dex and should get his Dex gauntlets to +4.
The whole argument with the Belt of physical stats ‘saving slots’ doesn’t work if it ‘costs gold’. Valeros isn’t using his gaunts slots, anyways…saving it is useless, and the 50% premium to ‘centralize’ things is not worth it when he’s trying to get gold out of everything. It hits hardest when doing Nat AC vs Con, as those use the same default slot otherwise…he has no CHOICE but to combine things.
The History of Scars Achievement feat would be great for Valeros…he’s already got a big honker of one, and his write-up precludes being Charismatic anyways. His traits are optional, but I’d suggest Big Game Hunter, given he’s got survival and is in the jungle, and is fighting so many big things. Every little bit helps. (Hmm, where’d it go? +2 dmg against foes bigger then you…). As an option, Courageous fits Valeros’ profile, and improves his saves vs fear by another +2, and his great-grandfather’s Heirloom sword would be another possibility.
His next purchase should definitely be Boots of Speed. The cumulative bonuses are invaluable, and the ten rounds should get him through most fights in a given day. +1 TH/AC/+30 Move are incredibly valuable to a warrior. It also makes him immune to Slow spells.
Non-Pathfinder options: ==============
Lose Improved Critical for Melee Weapon Mastery (+2/+2). Pick up Imp. Critical when you can get the critical feats. Note that between critical mastery and critical feats + Shields, he doesn’t have enough feats to pursue Greater Weapon Spec.
Strongarm bracers mean he could use a Heavy/Oversized Longsword (2-12 dmg) at no penalty.
Others?
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The Wizard Ezren
Hrmph.
I know why they made a generalist wizard instead of a specialist, but I kind of rolled my eyes.
Hand of the mage, usable 10 t/day so he can miss somebody with an action at +6 to hit. The average AC of a CR 10 encounter is 20, right? missing 2/3 of the time?
Arcane Strike feat, so he can spend a swift action not doing 5 pts of dmg to the people he is missing with his attack. WTH.
Metamagic mastery, so he can 1/day cause an extra 17 pts of dmg with a fireball or Cone of cold.
His theme is direct damage…except he’s not an invoker, and a dmg boost 1/day is not justification for not having viable spells with you.
Furthermore, he has no spellbook with optional spells. No true strike. No teleport or overland flight. No Haste or slow. No evard’s tentacles or dimension door. No summoning spells at all for pre-fight help/summoning. He’s just a blaster with routine spells that he’s going to burn through extremely quickly, and unless he’s fighting multiple opponents, to little effect. And his most effective damage spell is Scorching Ray, which he has a Dex penalty to hit with. While I’m wholly of the agreement that save or dies are often basically either great or garbage, the lack of control spells is really disturbing, and the utility spells moreso.
The mage started with a 16 Int, I’m not sure why he needs a 15 Wis when 14 would give him everything he needs (feat req I’m missing?). Taking it to 14 should let him pop either his Con bonus or Dex bonus by +1. Likewise, there’s no reason for two 9’s and an 11…these should be reduced to 8 and 8 and 10, if you’re going to build this way. There’s no reason to waste odd build points on unneeded stats.
I understand why the iconic is a generalist mage, but the class abilities are hugely underwhelming and cater to a playstyle the invoker does better, which is metamagic. His ‘free’ metamagic is basically +6 levels of free metacasting at level 20…which is equal to the spell levels a specialist gets by level 3. Kindly note that a specialist can also ‘spend’ two slots on a barred school, thereby giving him the spell capacity of a generalist, if he so desires, and all the access to the schools.
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Eyeballing the Cleric and the theif, I can’t see anything glaringly out of place. The cleric is built around Channelling, and has a will save to defy belief (I guess someone has to make that paranoia save). The Rogue I don't have enough talents memorized, so I'll have to wait for someone else to critique.
==Aelryinth
I think my biggest complaint on Valeros is that they made him intentionally suck. Lousy fighting, shafted his horrible will save even more, AND COMPLETELY IGNORED A CLASS ABILITY in armor training. Then the screwball stat allocation, especially with dex...argh. ITWF before it's even MARGINALLY effective.
Basically, he's waving around a Short Sword +2 Defender in my update for the cost of 2 feats and 8k gp...when he could do it with a shield for 50 gp. Bleh. He could be hitting a 31-33 AC without too much difficulty, and improve all his saves magnificently...and all he's giving up on damage is Icy Burst, while he's hitting more and doing more damage per normal hit, sans frost.
Meh. Given how many he's fighting, he should have a Monstrous Humanoid Bane sword.
==+Aelryinth
I will pre-face this saying I agree and disagree with the op. Valeria isn't that bad. you need to understand they are not to intended to be optimized. alotbof normal players make characters like him. would I do the same concept the same? nit entirely but that's different tastes. our second darkness game had a dwarf built mostly the same with a dwarves urgosh. he dindnt hit so hard but was nearly impossible to hit defensively and buffs he was hitting 37 ac or so at level 8.
the big difference though and here is where I agree on valero his gear is a problem anyone doing this build should be in. mithril full plate. by level 10 unless it's nit available for ic reasons.
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The real question is: who cares ? They're going away in Carrion Crown, anyway.
Also - Paizo's stance was that they don't optimize the iconics, because the game is not about optimization (at this point TOZ and houstonderek begin to chew the carpet).
I'll chew on the carpet after 10 a.m. tomorrow. I need to vacuum first.
I think "Iron Will" is only supposed to add +2 to will saves. It's not supposed to be too optimized (as Paizo have emphasized) - and a low will save means he can (and should) rely on allies. I'd get rid of two-weapon fighting altogether, and spend as follows:
- (59k spent)
- +1 icy burst longsword
- +3 fullplate
- +2 heavy shield
- +1 ring of protection
- +1 amulet of natural armor
- +3 cloak of resistance
- +2 belt of str&con
- +1 composite(4) longbow
- set of arrows
- random cheap gear
- italic denotes changes
- level 1 - weapon focus (longsword), improved initiative, combat expertise
- level 2 - dodge
- level 3 - step up
- level 4 - weapon specialization (longsword)
- level 5 - following step
- level 6 - combat reflexes
- level 7 - step up and strike
- level 8 - improved critical (longsword)
- level 9 - disruptive
- level 10 - spell breaker
In this case his final stats are unchanged
AC 32
Fort 12
Reflex 9
Will 5
Combat expertise stays as a handy boost; and a stepping stone into potential feat trees. It's particularly handy when facing casters - which are easy to hit (and easy to threaten with this build); and the +3 bonus (that applies to touch AC as well) can be significant against casters' spells.
Maybe, because Valeros isn't the wisest of fellows, he didn't make the wisest choices when it came to selecting feats, skills and equipment. Perhaps he just got a load of stuff he thought was cool at the time.
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I'll chew on the carpet after 10 a.m. tomorrow. I need to vacuum first.The real question is: who cares ? They're going away in Carrion Crown, anyway.
Also - Paizo's stance was that they don't optimize the iconics, because the game is not about optimization (at this point TOZ and houstonderek begin to chew the carpet).
Just got a Roomba for Christmas. We have two dogs and a cat, and one of the dogs is a breed that sheds so much hair you can knit clothes out of it.
Life changing.
Also houstonderek and TOZ are the good guys.
Some of them are just WRONG though. The dwarf ranger write-up in kingmaker stacks bracers of armor and actual armor.
And Valeron would fail sooo hard in Serpent Skull,
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Some of them are just WRONG though. The dwarf ranger write-up in kingmaker stacks bracers of armor and actual armor.
And Valeron would fail sooo hard in Serpent Skull**spoiler omitted**
Spoiler tags exist for a reason. I don't want to know what kind of challenges I may face in Serpents Skull.
Please amend.
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Valeros, IMO, suffers from being a slave to his character art. He's got the same breastplate and two swords at level 15 that he was wearing at level 1.
Sure, he might be wearing mithral full plate by level 10, and using a pair of sun blades by level 15ish, but the gear chosen always seems to be more focused on remaining true to the artwork, than mechanically optimal.
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And the problem with that is??? The character is still viable, the fact that he's not super-optimised adds versimilitude to the character.
I didn't say that was a problem. I offered that as an explanation for why he's portrayed even at higher levels with a breastplate and pair of swords rather than the mithral full plate, sword-and-board/shield bash or two-handed weapon/power attack build that some others would be using. The write-ups tend to remain true to the WAR artwork.
But hey, I can jump to conclusions, too!
Why do you hate Buddha?
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And the problem with that is??? The character is still viable, the fact that he's not super-optimised adds versimilitude to the character.Well, for the sake of argument I don't think he is viable. After participating in most of the adventure paths (though not Serpent's Skull, though judging by the other responses it still sounds quite deadly), I don't see this character lasting long at all.
I really dont see the OP being "hyper optimized", just using some common sense, which in my experience is critical if you want your character to survive a Paizo published adventure, much less a whole AP.
That is a good point. Paizo are slightly slef-defeating in that they encourage a wide array of play styles and create non-optimised iconics but then their adventures are generally pretty tough.
The quantity of Uber-PC-slaying-end-of-book-BEGs has gone down though.
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(at this point TOZ and houstonderek begin to chew the carpet).
Sorry, not a rugmuncher.
Just got a Roomba for Christmas. We have two dogs and a cat, and one of the dogs is a breed that sheds so much hair you can knit clothes out of it.Life changing.
Also houstonderek and TOZ are the good guys.
Thanks. :)
And for whatever reason, our Roomba can't handle our Aussie's fur. Cannibal (yes, we named our bot) has had a notable decrease in his cleaning effectiveness...
Where can I find the stats on the iconic characters?
I was wondering, instead of looking at how the iconics would do in our campaigns, why not look to see how well they do in the adventures they are supposed to be in? It's one thing to say that all fighters need Iron Will (I don't agree, but it certainly a great choice that they should consider for the high majority of campaigns) but what if the adventures just don't have that many things that require Will saves?
I have some experience with this, as I had a PC who played Valeros from level 1 to level 7 before the party TPK'd in City of Golden Death. He was locked into the attributes and other 1st level choices of the iconic, but from there was able to choose his own build.
He kept the TWF schtick and even went ITWF, but one thing that helped immensely was taking the old 3.5 feat Oversized TWF (I tend to allow 3.5 stuff on a case by case basis). OTWF meat he was dual-wielding two longswords, which combined with Double Slice, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Weapon Specialization meant his damage output was pretty good. He also ended up taking Dual Strike (also a 3.5 feat, allows you to attack with both weapons as a standard action) which overall more than increased his damage enough to make up for the TWF accuracy loss.
So while admittedly it involved allowing some 3.5 feats, Valeros can be built into an effective fighter without completely changing his stats (although the Will save was still an issue and the PC admitted he would have taken Iron Will had he known the system better).
I agree that his higher level writeups as written are terrible.
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Where can I find the stats on the iconic characters?
I was wondering, instead of looking at how the iconics would do in our campaigns, why not look to see how well they do in the adventures they are supposed to be in? It's one thing to say that all fighters need Iron Will (I don't agree, but it certainly a great choice that they should consider for the high majority of campaigns) but what if the adventures just don't have that many things that require Will saves?
Paizo has been putting pregen iconics in the back of the Pathfinder Adventure Path books since they started. So this thread HAS been comparing them to the APs they show up in, hence 'enjoy those Will save DCs Valeros!'
Paizo has been putting pregen iconics in the back of the Pathfinder Adventure Path books since they started. So this thread HAS been comparing them to the APs they show up in, hence 'enjoy those Will save DCs Valeros!'Where can I find the stats on the iconic characters?
I was wondering, instead of looking at how the iconics would do in our campaigns, why not look to see how well they do in the adventures they are supposed to be in? It's one thing to say that all fighters need Iron Will (I don't agree, but it certainly a great choice that they should consider for the high majority of campaigns) but what if the adventures just don't have that many things that require Will saves?
That's reasonable then. Since I don't have any of the Pathfinder Adventure Paths, is there any other way I can get the stats for the iconics? I don't want to buy a bunch of adventures that I'm probably not going to use just to get some stat blocks.
I hadn't though about his gear keeping with character, that makes sense. as I said in my other post I don't think he's bad. I've played with people with characters like him.
The real question is: who cares ? They're going away in Carrion Crown, anyway.
Also - Paizo's stance was that they don't optimize the iconics, because the game is not about optimization (at this point TOZ and houstonderek begin to chew the carpet).
There is a fine and easily identifiable line between "not optimized" and "wtf is this crap?"
That's reasonable then. Since I don't have any of the Pathfinder Adventure Paths, is there any other way I can get the stats for the iconics? I don't want to buy a bunch of adventures that I'm probably not going to use just to get some stat blocks.Paizo has been putting pregen iconics in the back of the Pathfinder Adventure Path books since they started. So this thread HAS been comparing them to the APs they show up in, hence 'enjoy those Will save DCs Valeros!'Where can I find the stats on the iconic characters?
I was wondering, instead of looking at how the iconics would do in our campaigns, why not look to see how well they do in the adventures they are supposed to be in? It's one thing to say that all fighters need Iron Will (I don't agree, but it certainly a great choice that they should consider for the high majority of campaigns) but what if the adventures just don't have that many things that require Will saves?
There's a download for the iconics as pathfinder society pregens, apparently:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/pregeneratedCharacters
The writeups their are apparently somewhat different from the ones the OP is describing though, as this version of Valeros has Double Slice and better saves at level 7 than the OP describes in the level 10 version of Valeros included in the Serpent Skull adventure that the OP describes.
Some of them are just WRONG though. The dwarf ranger write-up in kingmaker stacks bracers of armor and actual armor.
And Valeron would fail sooo hard in Serpent Skull, aka "Difficult Terrain" aka "Check out THESE will-save DCs!"
Spoiler tags exist for a reason. I don't want to know what kind of challenges I may face in Serpents Skull.
Please amend.
I haven't told you anything the Player's Guide won't tell you before you make a character. If anything, I am confirming what is said in there.
In which 'Negative Will Save' = 'wtf is this crap?'
Your ability to divine some non-mentioned, specific gripe of mine is impressive.
And I can't say any further because I don't have Serpent's Skull and I'm not going to buy it just to see a level 10 version of this character.
There's a download for the iconics as pathfinder society pregens, apparently:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/pregeneratedCharacters
The writeups their are apparently somewhat different from the ones the OP is describing though, as this version of Valeros has Double Slice and better saves at level 7 than the OP describes in the level 10 version of Valeros included in the Serpent Skull adventure that the OP describes.
I had found those but I was hoping to find the level 10 versions. I also found a level 14 version of Valeros. I think it would be great if Paizo (or someone else with the information) put together the iconics at each level of play. One 21 page document for each character. Page 1 would be the character write up and then one page for each level. Maybe add an additional page to explain why certain choices were made over others (for example, why Valeros never boosted his Will saves).
If the iconics were optimised then the message to players would be: you need to learn to optimise to play this game.
Paizo have avoided that message, probably because it's not true.
Valeros doesn't need to be optimal, he needs to be cool. And he is.
This is really the heart of it.
Valeros could be built better. But iconics aren't meant to be super builds. They're meant to
a) be an example of how someone might play the game - and thus send a message based on their build about how optimizey the game is
b) be used as NPCs, in which case if they are all uber it annoys your players
c) be used as PCs almost never, only by like one shot con games or by people with a severe dearth of imagination.
Given those three purposes of an iconic, Valeros works fine. There is no "show off how uber you can make a character" purpose an iconic serves.
Serpent Skull is good fun so far. Some points had me go "Wat?" but all in all it is a different and interesting experience.
But if you are in the game to "win" it is going to be easy. We are not optimized at all (me playing a Paladin/Monk should speak volumes) and we mostly do well.
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Valeros works fine as he is. He is playable enough. But I will agree on a few points:
- Not having Full Plate seems like a mistake. He's an ICONIC FIGHTER. What do fighters do? They wear lots of armor, they get cool weapons, and they kill things. Breastplate armor is lots of armor at level 1-2. Not at level 5+.
- Having Combat Expertise... bwah? Why does Valeros have Combat Expertise? He's brash, overconfident, and super aggressive. He doesn't need Combat Expertise.
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I actually like the Iconics not built to the best possible builds but built in themes that would be likely fun to play. That is a big reason I wanted the iconics to stay in the AP's to show people you don't need to optimized characters but build them with a concept in mind. Just my opinion of course.
I actually like the Iconics not built to the best possible builds but built in themes that would be likely fun to play. That is a big reason I wanted the iconics to stay in the AP's to show people you don't need to optimized characters but build them with a concept in mind. Just my opinion of course.
I agree with the winged lass in the red dress.
I am always a form over function character designer. Even, when I try not to be.
Greg
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Valeros works fine as he is. He is playable enough. But I will agree on a few points:
- Not having Full Plate seems like a mistake. He's an ICONIC FIGHTER. What do fighters do? They wear lots of armor, they get cool weapons, and they kill things. Breastplate armor is lots of armor at level 1-2. Not at level 5+.
- Having Combat Expertise... bwah? Why does Valeros have Combat Expertise? He's brash, overconfident, and super aggressive. He doesn't need Combat Expertise.
I think you're copnfusing 'iconic' with 'stereotypical'.
The iconics are perfectly up to Paizo's Adventure Path standards. If your camaign requires hyper-optimization just to be average, that speaks about your style of DMing.
Hyper-optimized, or shall we say min-maxed characters themselves tend to be glass canons, terribly vulnerable at their weak spots.
I have only ran Kingmaker, but those iconics would not have made it. I will eventually purchase the Serpent's Skull, but I have heard it is hard enough so that unless you tone it down a player at least needs a reasonable character. Right now the iconics are somewhere on the borderline between 1 and 2.
For a reference I have 3 levels of character creation:
1. Don't use this one
2. Midline(Optimization is sacrificed for fluff, but the character is still playable
3. Optimized(great build), but not annoying to most DM's
4. The DM better bring his A game. (Normally only possible with 3.5 splat)
The iconics are perfectly up to Paizo's Adventure Path standards. If your camaign requires hyper-optimization just to be average, that speaks about your style of DMing.
Hyper-optimized, or shall we say min-maxed characters themselves tend to be glass canons, terribly vulnerable at their weak spots.
I have only ran Kingmaker, but those iconics would not have made it. I will eventually purchase the Serpent's Skull, but I have heard it is hard enough so that unless you tone it down a player at least needs a reasonable character. Right now the iconics are somewhere on the borderline between 1 and 2.
For a reference I have 3 levels of character creation:
1. Don't use this one
2. Midline(Optimization is sacrificed for fluff, but the character is still playable
3. Optimized(great build), but not annoying to most DM's
4. The DM better bring his A game. (Normally only possible with 3.5 splat)
By this logic, I mostly make my characters around 2,4
My current character is a displaced samurai-type lord of Tian, built as follows:
- paladin(Warrior of Holy Light)X/monk(Zen Archer)1 for the fluff of a samurai following the spirit of Bushido, serving Irori, as that is the only Golarion god that is popular in his homeland. (lagging 1 level on BAB, paladin powers, smiting damage etc for archery, unarmed strike and skills that was character appropriate)
- wearing medium armor (-3 AC compared to plate)
- fighting with a longspear or katana in melee (-2 damage potential, more when using Vital Strike) longbow at range
- Feats: Power attack, Furious Focus, Quick Draw, Deadly Aim, Vital Strike, Dodge, Perfect Strike (Bow only)
- Stat Array at lv1: 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 16 with a 20 point buy.
Not overly specialized, even "unplayable" to some, but has made it well enough through parts 1 and 2 of Serpent Skull. Great fun to play.
Valeros works fine as he is. He is playable enough. But I will agree on a few points:
- Not having Full Plate seems like a mistake. He's an ICONIC FIGHTER. What do fighters do? They wear lots of armor, they get cool weapons, and they kill things. Breastplate armor is lots of armor at level 1-2. Not at level 5+.
- Having Combat Expertise... bwah? Why does Valeros have Combat Expertise? He's brash, overconfident, and super aggressive. He doesn't need Combat Expertise.
Moreover, why wield a Longsword and a Shortsword instead of two shortswords and benefit from your specializations in Shortsword?
The iconics are perfectly up to Paizo's Adventure Path standards. If your camaign requires hyper-optimization just to be average, that speaks about your style of DMing.
Hyper-optimized, or shall we say min-maxed characters themselves tend to be glass canons, terribly vulnerable at their weak spots.
I have only ran Kingmaker, but those iconics would not have made it. I will eventually purchase the Serpent's Skull, but I have heard it is hard enough so that unless you tone it down a player at least needs a reasonable character. Right now the iconics are somewhere on the borderline between 1 and 2.
For a reference I have 3 levels of character creation:
1. Don't use this one
2. Midline(Optimization is sacrificed for fluff, but the character is still playable
3. Optimized(great build), but not annoying to most DM's
4. The DM better bring his A game. (Normally only possible with 3.5 splat)By this logic, I mostly make my characters around 2,4
My current character is a displaced samurai-type lord of Tian, built as follows:
- paladin(Warrior of Holy Light)X/monk(Zen Archer)1 for the fluff of a samurai following the spirit of Bushido, serving Irori, as that is the only Golarion god that is popular in his homeland. (lagging 1 level on BAB, paladin powers, smiting damage etc for archery, unarmed strike and skills that was character appropriate)
- wearing medium armor (-3 AC compared to plate)
- fighting with a longspear or katana in melee (-2 damage potential, more when using Vital Strike) longbow at range
- Feats: Power attack, Furious Focus, Quick Draw, Deadly Aim, Vital Strike, Dodge, Perfect Strike (Bow only)
- Stat Array at lv1: 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 16 with a 20 point buy.Not overly specialized, even "unplayable" to some, but has made it well enough through parts 1 and 2 of Serpent Skull. Great fun to play.
Yes, a Paladin/Monk is a ridiculous character. "You know what I could use right now? A character that needs a high ability score in every stat but Int!"
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The iconics are perfectly up to Paizo's Adventure Path standards. If your camaign requires hyper-optimization just to be average, that speaks about your style of DMing.
Hyper-optimized, or shall we say min-maxed characters themselves tend to be glass canons, terribly vulnerable at their weak spots.
I have only ran Kingmaker, but those iconics would not have made it. I will eventually purchase the Serpent's Skull, but I have heard it is hard enough so that unless you tone it down a player at least needs a reasonable character. Right now the iconics are somewhere on the borderline between 1 and 2.
For a reference I have 3 levels of character creation:
1. Don't use this one
2. Midline(Optimization is sacrificed for fluff, but the character is still playable
3. Optimized(great build), but not annoying to most DM's
4. The DM better bring his A game. (Normally only possible with 3.5 splat)
If a GMs "A game" is based upon his ability to kill the PCs then I think our way of assessing good GMing is rather different.
In my, albeit personal and limited, experience a good adventure requires GM and players to be in agreement about the type of game they want to play, and the type of challenge they wish to face/provide.
In fact, we even seem to have different definitions of 'playable'.
Yes, a Paladin/Monk is a ridiculous character. "You know what I could use right now? A character that needs a high ability score in every stat but Int!"
Nah, getting by quite well without wis (8), and got all my saves up in double digits fast, which has proved quite useful in Serpent Skull.