+1
I don't need women with their lady parts hanging out, but I do like to see attractive women in my fantasy. That's why it's, say it with me, FANTASY... not historical-simulation gaming.
I've never argued against including art that depicts attractive female characters. I've simply stated that I would like to see more variety and a bit more 'grit.' Some people seem to be fixated on the idea that you must have all one thing or all the other. I'm not sure why. I guess it's just easier for some guys to argue against a strawman position than it is to thoughtfully consider my stated opinions.
I have brought it up and even offered to buy the speedo's for the boys, but they seem to not be to keen on the idea.
Heh, I knew I liked you for a reason.
:)
Well yes I have been asking for one for years. I think everyone would buy a copy of that, then it could be a yearly event.
You want the limited deluxe edition signed copy, too?
I'm ambivalent about the 3E NPC classes. I'm not quite sure why they should gain attacks, increased hit points, better saves, etc as they grow more experienced/better at their jobs. If they aren't adventurers, why are gaining skills and gaining combat bonuses tied together for them?
Well, the simple answer would be, because the rules work that way. It is not realistic, but then, a wizard could arguably gain 20 levels without doing a single attack with a weapon, yet still his attacks are getting better. It is unrealistic, but it is the way the rules work. If you want to separate this, I would recommend the "buy the numbers" idea, which essentially lets you improve the various aspects of your character separately - skills, attacks, spells, saves, hit points etc.
Stefan
Huh? Care to elaborate the latter point?
I make fun of America treating its citizens like little kids when it comes to sex almost as much as I rant about Germany treating its citizens like little kids when it comes to violence.They're wasting untold sums of money to have their own system of age/maturity ratings for films and games instead of using PEGI and are generally being overly harsh with video games. Then there's the whole BPJM crap, wasting more money and censoring stuff no other European country has a problem with.
More money is wasted because a lot of companies are scared of this whole crap and thus make baby versions of games to sell in this country. Movies are about half as long when they're broadcasted in TV because anything that is anywhere near graphical violence is cut.
They should just shut down the BPJM, send USK to hell, use PEGI, and frikkin grow up already.
That's the short version.
I hadn´t even heard about pegi before, but then, I´m not into video games much. Yes, the BPJM/USK are committees of cranky old men bent on ruining everyones fun and making disputable decisions, like allowing sleepy hollow in the cinema version to be viewed by 12-year-olds (I seem to recall that you could see heads rolling very clearly in the cinema version, but there is a FSK 16 version as well). I thought at that time that this rating was strangely mild for that movie, even if it was a cut version. But then, there were no naked boobs to see...
PEGI sounds like a good idea - within Europe, different standards for each country do not make any sense anymore nowadays.Stefan
I'm ambivalent about the 3E NPC classes. I'm not quite sure why they should gain attacks, increased hit points, better saves, etc as they grow more experienced/better at their jobs. If they aren't adventurers, why are gaining skills and gaining combat bonuses tied together for them?Well, the simple answer would be, because the rules work that way. It is not realistic, but then, a wizard could arguably gain 20 levels without doing a single attack with a weapon, yet still his attacks are getting better. It is unrealistic, but it is the way the rules work. If you want to separate this, I would recommend the "buy the numbers" idea, which essentially lets you improve the various aspects of your character separately - skills, attacks, spells, saves, hit points etc.
Stefan
In a number of other editions of the game non-adventuring NPCs are simply given whatever skills and talents the DM feels that they need. They are normally 1 HD characters, but the DM can alter that as he seees fit. That's a lot simpler.
When running D20, I've sometimes used full statblocks with levels and classes for non-adventurer types, but I really don't feel that it's necessary for most NPCs. A simple line like 'human , male, profession: cook at journeyman lvl, LN, 3 hit points (+ a short description of looks , personality, maybe a note about his history)' is usually good enough for my purposes.
In a number of other editions of the game non-adventuring NPCs are simply given whatever skills and talents the DM feels that they need. They are normally 1 HD characters, but the DM can alter that as he seees fit. That's a lot simpler.When running D20, I've sometimes used full statblocks with levels and classes for non-adventurer types, but I really don't feel that it's necessary for most NPCs. A simple line like 'human , male, profession: cook at journeyman lvl, LN, 3 hit points (+ a short description of looks , personality, maybe a note about his history)' is usually good enough for my purposes.
I concur. Normally, I don´t need any stats for non-combat NPCs, the exception being spellcasters - it can be important what spells the village cleric can cast. I could live very well with 0-level NPCs, which would currently be represented by a 1st level commoner adequately, and build any other characters from that basis.
I remember building a town under 3.x rules years back according to the rules in the DMG, and ended up with a commoner of level 6 or so. This felt odd somehow, so I decided to make him an expert. I do see a point in the NPC classes other than commoner, however. PC classes are high level professionals - a wizard is probably similar to somebody with an university degree in our world, whereas a ranger is a well-trained soldier, perhaps some kind of elite trooper. NPC classes represent folks who had their training on the job - competent to handle everyday situations, but with limits regarding extraordinary events. The PCs are the A-Team or the Ghostbusters, with a mayor being a noble and the policemen being warriors or experts. NPC classes are meant to highlight that the PCs are special.
Stefan
I think that most NPCs ought to be 0 lvl/NM/low level NPC classes. In some game supplements it seems as if every innkeeper is a retired fighter, and every village priest has spells. Ah, and every city has at least one high level wizard, if not several.
FR 2E is especially bad about that sort of thing.
Published Golarion seems to have generally avoided the problem of too many high powered NPCs.
EDIT- I wouldn't agree about 1st level PCs being the 'A Team', though. They are still relatively inexperienced, and while they have unusual skills, talents, and abilities, they are pretty frail in comparison to powerful monsters. They have the potential to become 'super-bad', but they aren't there yet. A commoner with a club can still brain your 1st level cleric with one lucky hit. That 1st level fighter can still get his butt kicked by ordinary town guards.
In a game I ran, with most PCs at 8th level, one guy played a crazy NE barbarian. Low level NPCs whupped his arse. First their leader pissed on the barbarian from atop a low bluff, just to get his attention and make him mad. Barbarian crawls up cliff. Near the top, while he's still climbing and so cannot dodge easily, militimen stand up with polearms and attack him. Ah, reach! Got a trip. AoOs. Arrow fire, Fall back. Attack with reach, more arrow fire. Roll barbarian off bluff for a little falling damage. He never even scratched the guys on top of the cliff. His only real accomplishment that whole fight was savagely beating a kid who fell off the cliff earlier in the battle when the party's sorceress tried to blind some of the guys up there with glitterdust.
Later, he murdered a city guardsman, got paralyzed by a bad save against a low level wizard, and was summarily decapitated.
Well yes I have been asking for one for years. I think everyone would buy a copy of that, then it could be a yearly event.
Uhm, I wouldn't buy a copy, sorry. Not the guys in speedos one. Sorry. Not that I'm against that project, but it's not for me.
I'd get the other one, though. That way, we are all happy.
I have brought it up and even offered to buy the speedo's for the boys, but they seem to not be to keen on the idea.
They're probably afraid you don't get their right colour scheme. Don't offer to buy the speedos, offer to pay for them and let them pick it out.
It's totally understandable. I wouldn't pose for pictures in speedos if they were the wrong colour.
Yes, the BPJM/USK are committees of cranky old men bent on ruining everyones fun and making disputable decisions, like allowing sleepy hollow in the cinema version to be viewed by 12-year-olds (I seem to recall that you could see heads rolling very clearly in the cinema version, but there is a FSK 16 version as well).
That doesn't really prove anything. One allegedly too lenient decision against a killion that were considerably harsher than anything else the big systems that are used in western civilisation decided.
PEGI sounds like a good idea - within Europe, different standards for each country do not make any sense anymore nowadays.
Exactly. It's ridiculous that games are censored when 15-year-olds not 10km from where I'm sitting right now can easily buy them in any store.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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That's cause most guys that do that are creepy stalker types. :)
You can take my medusa and marilith breasts when you pull them out of my cold, dead hands."I am Medusa! Look into my eyes and turn to stone!"
"SNAKE BOOBIES WOOHOOO!"
"I said, look into my eyes."
"Hubba hubba hubba!"
"MEN!..." *Walks off*Ok, this made me laugh. A lot.
Off topic: I've unnerved women because I maintain eye contact. They're too used to roving eyes I guess.
Weird, since the reason I do it is to avoid beign the annoy guy who stares at breasts. *shrug* can't win.
That doesn't really prove anything. One allegedly too lenient decision against a killion that were considerably harsher than anything else the big systems that are used in western civilisation decided.
Yes, the BPJM/USK are committees of cranky old men bent on ruining everyones fun and making disputable decisions, like allowing sleepy hollow in the cinema version to be viewed by 12-year-olds (I seem to recall that you could see heads rolling very clearly in the cinema version, but there is a FSK 16 version as well).
Yes, I only wanted to illustrate the point that they are not even consistent with their own standards at times. The whole organization is ridiculous. (as is the fact that a lot of youtube videos are not available in Germany due to some royalities issues claimed by another organization, who represents all artists and music companies, if they want to or not... the biggest joke was that some sony commercial was not available because it contained copyrighted content - by sony, no less.)
Stefan
Ah, reading through the thread I see that there are several others who slide my way on this issue.
Wow I am truly surprised
Wow I am truly surprised
How did you get your screenname, exactly?
:)
So, that settles it then - we definitely need to include more cheesecake art in RPG products.
Wow I am truly surprised
We need a bit more.
So, that settles it then - we definitely need to include more cheesecake art in RPG products.
Have you heard of F.A.T.A.L.?
It's got more sex than you can shake a stick at.
I'm not a fan.
Cheesecake art and sex in a RPG are not the same thing.So, that settles it then - we definitely need to include more cheesecake art in RPG products.Have you heard of F.A.T.A.L.?
It's got more sex than you can shake a stick at.
I'm not a fan.
If only it were so wholesome as all that.
Trust me, if you know not the unspeakable evil of 'that game', it is better that you remain ignorant.
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Cheesecake art and sex in a RPG are not the same thing.So, that settles it then - we definitely need to include more cheesecake art in RPG products.Have you heard of F.A.T.A.L.?
It's got more sex than you can shake a stick at.
I'm not a fan.
If only it were so wholesome as all that.
Trust me, if you know not the unspeakable evil of 'that game', it is better that you remain ignorant.
I've heard of it. I was merely saying sex in RPG has nothing to do with cheesecake art is all. So wasn't sure why you brought it up is all.
So, that settles it then - we definitely need to include more cheesecake art in RPG products.Have you heard of F.A.T.A.L.?
It's got more sex than you can shake a stick at.
I'm not a fan.
How can you possibly, and with a straight face, compare the most asinine, homophobic, & misogynistic game that has ever or will ever be created to cheesecake art. Srsly. You are comparing apples and oranges. And do NOT tell me that one leads to the other, because that is an incredibly ludicrous assumption.
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I actually rather like "Eyepatch Lady" in the Dragon Warrior art.
But then I like Cultists of Kalavei too.
It'd be nice to have both without one or the other constantly being knocked.
So, that settles it then - we definitely need to include more cheesecake art in RPG products.Have you heard of F.A.T.A.L.?
It's got more sex than you can shake a stick at.
I'm not a fan.
I don't think anyone is, but I don't really see what that's got to do with cheesecake art.
Or are you saying they're the same thing? Because that's really not a reasonable comparison. It's like if someone mentions something about a Mazda 6, and you respond with the TVR Typhon.
And yes, Note to artists: more side boob.
And yes, Note to artists: more side boob.
I can actually live without art depicting silicone "enhanced" females.
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And yes, Note to artists: more side boob.I can actually live without art depicting silicone "enhanced" females.
So I would not be the only guy who would like to see a re-imagining of Seoni then? Everything from her fake boobs to her cheesy red stripper outfit makes her an eyesore to me, I think she's just whorrible. ;)
How can you possibly, and with a straight face, compare the most asinine, homophobic, & misogynistic game that has ever or will ever be created to cheesecake art. Srsly. You are comparing apples and oranges. And do NOT tell me that one leads to the other, because that is an incredibly ludicrous assumption.So, that settles it then - we definitely need to include more cheesecake art in RPG products.Have you heard of F.A.T.A.L.?
It's got more sex than you can shake a stick at.
I'm not a fan.
Ohhh, are you back so soon? Thought you'd 'walked away' after making that speech. :)
How can you tell if I have a straight face? You can't see it. :)
I actually rather like "Eyepatch Lady" in the Dragon Warrior art.
But then I like Cultists of Kalavei too.
It'd be nice to have both without one or the other constantly being knocked.
If you read my initial post, you'll see that I don't object to the 'occasional odalisque.' It's just a question of how much, and when is it appropriate. Cheesecake armor all over the place is too goofy for my taste/ The cultist isn't armored, and seems to be casting a spell. The cultist is fine by me, but I'd like her balanced out by considerably more more 'eyepatch lady', battle herald, 'scars girl', 'pockmarked barmaid', etc.
And yes, Note to artists: more side boob.I can actually live without art depicting silicone "enhanced" females.
This might also reflect on what we find to be attractive in women, Stefan. I prefer a more 'natural' look.
I love how gamer geeks will, at almost any opportunity, so willingly turn on one another, like a pack of rabid dogs that are starving to death. Instead of finding joy in their shared hobby, they nitpick and backstab and assume things about one another's mental and psychological state over such silly things as a bit of skin. But then again, whether it's ultra-conservative Christians who blast you as sinful or ultra-liberals who blast you as misogynistic, people of all walks of life assume that if you do enjoy cheesecake art you must hate and mistreat women (and if you're a woman that enjoys it, you're obviously hopelessly repressed and forced to say you like it by the misogynistic men in your life...).
Oh, and just for the record, none of the art in Paizo's books actually fits the definition of "cheesecake" art. Look it up. Oh, wait, that's right. Actually having knowledge about something never stopped any self-righteous person from arguing passionately against it or referencing it or using it as a bad example.
Cheesecake art is artwork that specifically emulates the style of pin-up girl photography that was made popular during WWII. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin-up_girl
The art in Paizo's books that so many people hate would be more accurately termed either Good Girl Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_girl_art or Bad Girl Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_girl_art. Of course, even using the proper terminology for the art would not change the point of view that those that enjoy it and would like to see even as little as 1 piece of such art in any Paizo project are perverts and/or women-haters...
I just find the logic amusing.
After all, it's perfectly acceptable in game to summon demons, fist-fight werewolves, slay undead tyrants, and raid the lairs of dragons. But having a female character showing some skin while doing so is obviously unrealistic...
I love how gamer geeks will, at almost any opportunity, so willingly turn on one another, like a pack of rabid dogs that are starving to death. Instead of finding joy in their shared hobby, they nitpick and backstab and assume things about one another's mental and psychological state over such silly things as a bit of skin. But then again, whether it's ultra-conservative Christians who blast you as sinful or ultra-liberals who blast you as misogynistic, people of all walks of life assume that if you do enjoy cheesecake art you must hate and mistreat women (and if you're a woman that enjoys it, you're obviously hopelessly repressed and forced to say you like it by the misogynistic men in your life...).
Oh, and just for the record, none of the art in Paizo's books actually fits the definition of "cheesecake" art. Look it up. Oh, wait, that's right. Actually having knowledge about something never stopped any self-righteous person from arguing passionately against it or referencing it or using it as a bad example.
Cheesecake art is artwork that specifically emulates the style of pin-up girl photography that was made popular during WWII. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin-up_girl
The art in Paizo's books that so many people hate would be more accurately termed either Good Girl Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_girl_art or Bad Girl Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_girl_art. Of course, even using the proper terminology for the art would not change the point of view that those that enjoy it and would like to see even as little as 1 piece of such art in any Paizo project are perverts and/or women-haters...
QFT!
A little less self-righteousness would make topics like this meaningless. Is seeing Seoni flashing a bit of leg really that distressing, especially in the context of a fantasy game? Would you have similar exceptions to a muscled, shirtless male barbarian? Who do the censorship crusaders think they are protecting?
I love how gamer geeks will, at almost any opportunity, so willingly turn on one another, like a pack of rabid dogs that are starving to death. Instead of finding joy in their shared hobby, they nitpick and backstab and assume things about one another's mental and psychological state over such silly things as a bit of skin. But then again, whether it's ultra-conservative Christians who blast you as sinful or ultra-liberals who blast you as misogynistic, people of all walks of life assume that if you do enjoy cheesecake art you must hate and mistreat women (and if you're a woman that enjoys it, you're obviously hopelessly repressed and forced to say you like it by the misogynistic men in your life...).
I don't know where all that came from, but please read this:
It's strange, but you seem to be arguing with someone who's not actually posting here. I don't think that you are a bad person, a misogynist, or whatever. We like different art styles, that's all. Not sure why this is such a personal issue for you, but I thought I'd remind you that I don't think ill of you for not sharing my tastes. You seem to enjoy seeing a good amount of pin up girl art in RPGs, while I'd rather see less of it. Does that anger you for some reason? Why? I'm really perplexed by your posts.
-Ewan
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A little less self-righteousness would make topics like this meaningless.
What's more interesting to me is that self-righteousness is often socially specific.
I have a close colleague whom I could basically have the same debate with here in regards to women in art and media, and yet, he's willing to hit the peeler joints with a stag because it's a social expectation to participate.
I've met very, very few of the self-righteous who don't have at least one sin :)
PS. I don't mean to imply that this thread is full of 'crusade for righteousnous', frankly so far it seems to live right in the middle ground of colorful debate.
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I love how gamer geeks will, at almost any opportunity, so willingly turn on one another, like a pack of rabid dogs that are starving to death. Instead of finding joy in their shared hobby, they nitpick and backstab and assume things about one another's mental and psychological state over such silly things as a bit of skin. But then again, whether it's ultra-conservative Christians who blast you as sinful or ultra-liberals who blast you as misogynistic, people of all walks of life assume that if you do enjoy cheesecake art you must hate and mistreat women (and if you're a woman that enjoys it, you're obviously hopelessly repressed and forced to say you like it by the misogynistic men in your life...).
Oh, and just for the record, none of the art in Paizo's books actually fits the definition of "cheesecake" art. Look it up. Oh, wait, that's right. Actually having knowledge about something never stopped any self-righteous person from arguing passionately against it or referencing it or using it as a bad example.
Cheesecake art is artwork that specifically emulates the style of pin-up girl photography that was made popular during WWII. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin-up_girl
The art in Paizo's books that so many people hate would be more accurately termed either Good Girl Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_girl_art or Bad Girl Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_girl_art. Of course, even using the proper terminology for the art would not change the point of view that those that enjoy it and would like to see even as little as 1 piece of such art in any Paizo project are perverts and/or women-haters...
Not to derail things, but Bettie Page was one of my idol's/Role Models growing up. She had a bit of a refame in the 80's and 90's where I lived.
Not to derail things, but Bettie Page was one of my idol's/Role Models growing up. She had a bit of a refame in the 80's and 90's where I lived.
I love Bettie (partly because she's a fellow Tennessean, like myself :) ). Her fame still lives. In the past few years there have been a couple of bio-pics about her - my favorite was The Notorious Bettie Page. One of the prized pieces of mine and Connie's fantasy art collection is the huge limited edition lithograph Larry Elmore did a few years ago of Bettie in a fantasy setting.
LOVEEEEEEEEE Betty Page.
How can you possibly, and with a straight face, compare the most asinine, homophobic, & misogynistic game that has ever or will ever be created to cheesecake art. Srsly. You are comparing apples and oranges. And do NOT tell me that one leads to the other, because that is an incredibly ludicrous assumption.So, that settles it then - we definitely need to include more cheesecake art in RPG products.Have you heard of F.A.T.A.L.?
It's got more sex than you can shake a stick at.
I'm not a fan.
Agreed. It's like comparing apples to hand grenades when one brings F.A.T.A.L. into the mix. May as well Godwin the thread. :P
I just find the logic amusing.
After all, it's perfectly acceptable in game to summon demons, fist-fight werewolves, slay undead tyrants, and raid the lairs of dragons. But having a female character showing some skin while doing so is obviously unrealistic...
I love the irony of our country:
Janet Jackson nipple slip during Super Bowl Half Time: BAD!
Rape and murder being acted out on prime time network television followed by the display of said carnage on a typical crime drama procedural: GOOD!
We're long overdue for an enema. ;-)
I love how gamer geeks will, at almost any opportunity, so willingly turn on one another, like a pack of rabid dogs that are starving to death. Instead of finding joy in their shared hobby, they nitpick and backstab and assume things about one another's mental and psychological state over such silly things as a bit of skin. But then again, whether it's ultra-conservative Christians who blast you as sinful or ultra-liberals who blast you as misogynistic, people of all walks of life assume that if you do enjoy cheesecake art you must hate and mistreat women (and if you're a woman that enjoys it, you're obviously hopelessly repressed and forced to say you like it by the misogynistic men in your life...).
I don't know where all that came from, but please read this:
It's strange, but you seem to be arguing with someone who's not actually posting here. I don't think that you are a bad person, a misogynist, or whatever. We like different art styles, that's all. Not sure why this is such a personal issue for you, but I thought I'd remind you that I don't think ill of you for not sharing my tastes. You seem to enjoy seeing a good amount of pin up girl art in RPGs, while I'd rather see less of it. Does that anger you for some reason? Why? I'm really perplexed by your posts.
-Ewan
I'm not hunter1828 or lyingbastard, but even bothering to bring up F.A.T.A.L. in this conversation like a proverbial ace up the sleeve is tantamount to invoking Godwin's Law when you throw in Nazi analogies in another-wise civil conversation. It can no longer be taken seriously.
Like F.A.T.A.L. It's like the Marquis de Sade's 1000 Days of Sodom translated to RPG. It's so over-the-top absurd in the same context that hunter described F.A.T.A.L. that you can't help but roll your eyes at it.
He was upset long before I made a joking mention of 'that game.' I'm not sure why he's taking things so personally, but he seem to think that people think ill of him for liking 'pin up girls.' I don't think poorly of him at all- I just have different taste in art. It seems that this is somehow offensive to him. I'm not sure why or how.
He was upset long before I made a joking mention of 'that game.' I'm not sure why he's taking things so personally, but he seem to think that people think ill of him for liking 'pin up girls.' I don't think poorly of him at all- I just have different taste in art. It seems that this is somehow offensive to him. I'm not sure why or how. There may be some baggage here of which I'm not aware.
Your mention of F.A.T.A.L. was in no way joking, and that's a weak attempt to cover yourself after the fact.