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The only fantasy art I have issues with is some of the older art, especially some of the older conan art. Where conan is standing up bloody sword, while the women are laying at his feat, or chained up etc and submissive. As long as Paizo stays away from that, then I will be happy with their art. I personally think they give a nice variety of cheesecake and practical art myself.
Then again, Paizo's definitely, intentionally, in the pulp tradition, and those kind of cheesecake covers are a staple trope of that tradition. Take a look at the Planet Stories line. Of course, if you object to Conan art, you'll really hate the stories.
I have to say I find the complaint pretty silly.
Paizo is in so many ways, the leader in gender and racial diversity in fantasy roleplaying games. They embody a range of genders and sexualities in their NPCs and take on a wide range of races as well. They even manage to keep the levels of orientalisation relatively low.
Only the best work that white wolf did in this area back in the day really outstriped the effort that paizo put into this.
And for what? A tendancy towards idealised forms in the artwork, and a that some of the female Iconics have a little more skin showing than would be practical in the real world?
Idealisation is a fact of life with the work of a great many artists. The female form is beautiful (as is the male, but a quick glance back seems to suggest that the OP is completely ignoring the male cheese cake on offer) and artists, being in the business of making asthetically pleasing imagery and loving said forms sometimes go for an unrealistic level of attractiveness. I know many gamers, especially females, who do exactly the same with their characters. (I am an oddity in that i often play against that norm with unusual or under represented body type or ethnicities when i play.)
And frankly, compared the real equality issues society faces, it is laughable to think that very niche art of fantasty characters is high on the list of things that need to change. Especially when there is wider variety of body types in said art, than there is on most fashion mags.
Armour: I'll try and come back to the armour more fully when i am not so tired but the armour issue is relatively equal opitunity with a few of the male characters having armour/outfits that is every bit as impractical as that worn by the females.
And even the 'worst' examples amongst the female character, are vast improvement on the vast majority of historic fantasy females, and even many contempery fantasy images and minitures.
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The only fantasy art I have issues with is some of the older art, especially some of the older conan art. Where conan is standing up bloody sword, while the women are laying at his feat, or chained up etc and submissive. As long as Paizo stays away from that, then I will be happy with their art. I personally think they give a nice variety of cheesecake and practical art myself.Then again, Paizo's definitely, intentionally, in the pulp tradition, and those kind of cheesecake covers are a staple trope of that tradition. Take a look at the Planet Stories line. Of course, if you object to Conan art, you'll really hate the stories.
I have read the stories. To be clear I don't object to the art if it fits and is not the majority or even common. Like if the art is showing a villain in his harem, yeah then the art fits and no problem. I just don't want to see a ton of that kind of art even when it fits and never when it doesn't fit.
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I don't know if it's 'cheesecake' but the interior art of the Inner Sea Primer is pretty uncomfortable viewing: both suggestive (just check the panting, wolf-whistling responses on the blog) and seriously jailbait.
I want verisimilitude in my art: Seoni's expanding, pneumatic breasts (check out the interior art of The Godsmouth Heresy) and uncomfortable trekking gear (level 1 character wearing that stuff to trek to Thistletop?) lacks verisimilitude.
I don't mind attractive, but I want verisimilitude and poses that are in-the-story and not on-display.
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I don't know if it's 'cheesecake' but the interior art of the Inner Sea Primer is pretty uncomfortable viewing: both suggestive (just check the panting, wolf-whistling responses on the blog) and seriously jailbait.
I looked once ... then twice ... then about twenty more ... sorry, still didn't see anything even remotely resembling what I'd consider jailbait.
Different art style, definitley; but I dunno. Guess that's the problem with this debate, the subjectivity is off the scales of any practical chart.
Yawn.This is a Very Serious Topic. It deserves nothing less than 10 pages of discussion.
Who wants to race to 10?
This is serious! Jack-Bauer-we-don't-have-time level serious.
If someone were to derail this entire thread with nonsense and fun, the Very Serious Topic would go unresolved and could kill us all!!!
Or is that rainbows I'm thinking of?
What do I say each time this thread reincarnates itsself?
Oh, yeah.......this thread again yaaaaaaaaaay.
Maybe we should have a vote on which of the Iconics we want to see illustrated as a pin-up for Valentine's Day.
Or maybe it could be a fan art contest to draw the iconics as Valentine's Day pin-ups.
Beefcake: Is that kinda like beef wellington? Because I can't picture pouring a liquid beef mixture into a pan and baking it . . . although now I have a great idea for the flavor text in Hook Mountain Massacre!
Cheesecake: Very good stuff. Use dental floss to cut it; much neater.
If anyone wants to be offended by anything, they'll find a way. Literature? HP Lovecraft was pretty bigoted, but I still enjoy his works. RE Howard displays some misogynistic tendencies, but Conan is still a great iconic warrior. Or shall we go over the battle about he/she when it comes to generic pronouns? Because that is always fun.
Why don't we see more mousy/overweight/ugly iconic characters in fantasy art? For the same reason we don't see a movie starring Rosie O'Donnell: Ugly doesn't sell. No one wants to see ugly. If you really do want to see ugly, go look outside at random people. Chances are you'll find one quickly.
Why are most politicians fairly attractive? Because ugly doesn't sell. Why are all the people on network news shows the externally beautiful people? Because no one wants to see Steve Buscemi tell them about the events of the day. Why does modern "art" gather so much attention from the intellectual crowd? Because modern art is ugly, and these people need to stroke their egos by saying ugly is really beautiful and all those foolish Renaissance Masters were just Old White Guys who probably beat their wives.
Note that the people who complain the loudest about this subject are people who don't actually DO anything about it. Otherwise, we'd see some example of "gomakemeasandwich"'s art. So much easier to complain about other people than to make productive use of one's time.
And with that said, I'm off to think about cheesecake recipes. I did make a pot-roast in a glass baking pan tonight. So, that is kinda like a beefcake . . . . With sorghum-and-beef broth gravy. Yum!
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Check out Anna Krieder's blog:
I wonder if you idealise your own characters? Are they good looking? Are they attractive to members of their preferred gender? Do your characters fit the cheesy/beefyness that you have a problem with in the art?Most of my characters are dwarves so they look like me. Although the current character I am playing is a good looking 35 year-old woman with a daughter.
I suggest that you look at the art around iconics a lot of the NPCs are ugly, ungainly, short, tall, gay, black, Asian, male and female.
Why yes dear sir, as a female player I have played a wide variety of body typed females and different races as well. I have played short and fat, tall and skinny with small breasts and hardly no backside, I have played pregnant characters even! I have even played a big muscular woman who was half orc and class barbarian from the cold north wearing full cold winter gear, CHA total dump stat for that character and honestly half-orcs and orcs just aren't pretty. On the flip side I also played a small very demure character from a culture based heavily on middle eastern culture, hence we was fully covered face veil and all (sorceress). While I understand the point of fantasy games is to play someone else, why does that someone else have to be some glorified bimbo? I want characters with personality substance not just play a character with big boobs and tiny waist to make myself feel better because in real life I am insecure with my body that I am constantly told is ugly by societal standards. Now in my fantasy world all I have to look at is the same image pressures I receive in real life? Heck no! Now also have I played a character similar to a cheesecake, well sort of. She was was blonde blue, eyed, and if on a scale of 1-10 for aesthetics she would have been a 7. However she did not wear skimpy clothing, she was a cleric and wore full clerical robes of her Goddess. I also made her appearance seem buffy the vampire air-head like but for a reason, to contrast her personality. She was a LN cleric of Weejas/wizard with the true necromancer added on. She was a cold, calculating, very scientific thinking woman who had no time for the emotional nonsense of love. So while she appeared attractive her personality was totally cold and prickly, she was more interested in requisitioning your dead remains for research rather than jumping your bones in a sexual sense. ::shrug:: on the other hand I have a female friend who totally always makes cheesecakes that are very sexually aggressive lol and we laugh about it all the time (I blame her condition on anime).Now with that said. I love the art in the the PFCRB. I appreciate the strides that Paizo has made towards a more balanced depiction of its character archetypes. I was totally blown away with the paladin and the cleric! The sorcerer? eh, typical. Remember the sorcerer in 3.5 D&D Hennet? He was a male and was depicted just as bad! I just assumed that all sorcerers were a bit crazy and thus dressed like freaks. Also I do appreciate art as a whole and I do appreciate the aesthetics of the female body. I guess the point is its the inequality of depictions and the assumption that a female character must look like cheesecakes. Thus being a female player who will obviously bring a female character to the table, I have had to endure the endless bikini mail jokes(which does get old after the first couple) or other players underestimating my character or gaming skills because well, I am a girl. Consider The Gamers 2: Dorkness Rising, a satirical comedy, yes, but with very valid points in regards to female gamers. Ok I'm done burning your eyes out.
Here are some women who were actual adventurers, soldiers, spies, etc(one was, in fact, a 'barbarian princesss'):
http://aarontallent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Amelia_Earhart.jpg
http://exiledonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Harriet-Tubman.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/pocahontas_origina l.jpg/462px-pocahontas_original.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36919288@N08/3885892707/
http://hilobrow.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/calimityjane1895-2-500.jpg
None of them look like ninja strippers to me.
Heroines don't need to be sexpots.
Audrey Hepburn
was a total bad ass Dutch resistance ballerina fighter.
She was a virtual ninja.
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Dude, I'd call a few of those cheesecake, or borderline cases.I sorta added in with my own comments to that blog- just to another, much earlier blog instead of the linked one which Mr. Mona answered to, btw.
Long story short, if Paizo was all about da cheezcake, what about stuff like these:
Guess I did get 3 out of 14 on the blog; How about these new ones then?
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1114-EvilSeelah.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1114-Archer.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/SecondDarkness/PZO9015-DrowCleric.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/CouncilOfThieves/PZO9031-Wife.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/CrimsonThrone/PZO9008-DanceOfTheDead.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderChronicles/PZO9211-Temple.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderChronicles/PZO1108-Chapter2.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1115-BattleHerald.jpg
The above one... kind of hard to tell the gender; leaning towards female, I think.
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1115-MasterSpy.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderTales/Certainty-Wizard.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderModules/PZO9525-WindowTentacle.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/Blog/gobberCrys11_500.jpeg
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderPlayerCompanion/PZO9415-Baby.jpg
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1116-PreviewMonster17.jpg
The above one does have Cheesecake, but it seems much more funny to me than sexy
P.S. And apologies to Paizo while I'm at it for that "worse" thing. ;)
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I would like to see more variety with the looks of women in Golarion. Give us some gals who look plain, scarred, ugly, plump,frumpy, mousy, etc. I'm not saying that all the female characters have been 'too pretty', or that I object to the occasional odalisque, but dialing down the fanservice would certainly please me. Give us more hard-bitten adventuresses who look the part, and not like swimsuit or lingerie models.
There's these:
I would like to see more variety with the looks of women in Golarion. Give us some gals who look plain, scarred, ugly, plump,frumpy, mousy, etc. I'm not saying that all the female characters have been 'too pretty', or that I object to the occasional odalisque, but dialing down the fanservice would certainly please me. Give us more hard-bitten adventuresses who look the part, and not like swimsuit or lingerie models.There's these:
Scars and pox marks- GOOD STUFF! That's more like it. As I had noted in my initial post, Paizo has definitely taken some in what I'd say is the right direction. They may be ahead of the curve for D&D and related games.
Are there any female iconics, other than the Battle Herald whom I had previously noted as a good example, who are not large breasted, showing skin, etc? More like the scars girl you showed me, perhaps?
I would like to see more variety with the looks of women in Golarion. Give us some gals who look plain, scarred, ugly, plump,frumpy, mousy, etc. I'm not saying that all the female characters have been 'too pretty', or that I object to the occasional odalisque, but dialing down the fanservice would certainly please me. Give us more hard-bitten adventuresses who look the part, and not like swimsuit or lingerie models.There's these:
Scars and pox marks- GOOD STUFF! That's more like it. As I had noted in my initial post, Paizo has definitely taken some in what I'd say is the right direction. They may be ahead of the curve for D&D and related games.
Are there any female iconics, other than the Battle Herald whom I had previously noted as a good example, who are not large breasted, showing skin, etc? More like the scars girl you showed me, perhaps?
Neither Lini or Merisiel are paticularly large (though the clincher i think makes merisiel look a little larger.)
Amiri and Kyra are medium sizedish
Sioni, Alahazra and the witch are large.
While the inquisitor is truely buxom(you don't often seem a powerful built and buxom woman in fantasy art especially dresses as conservatively as she is dressed)
Neither Lini or Merisiel are paticularly large (though the clincher i think makes merisiel look a little larger.)Amiri and Kyra are medium sizedish
Sioni, Alahazra and the witch are large.
While the inquisitor is truely buxom(you don't often seem a powerful built and buxom woman in fantasy art especially dresses as conservatively as she is dressed)
The elf girl's armor looks designed to enchance and display her cleavage, yeah. That's actually the only complaint I have in regards to her. At least she's not in plate with a boob window/push up bra effect.
I'm not sure if I can properly communicate may incandescent hatred of the boob window in armor. It vexes me.
The gnome druid- yeah, she's different. I really like her. She's child sized with a proportionately huge head. Of course she's not sexy. Instead, she looks non-human, a bit mysterious, and very much like a druid. Great job, Paizo artists!
Cheesecake usually uses the man-sized races like humans, elves, and half elves. I haven't seen much gnome, halfling, or dwarf cheesecake out there. Yes, I'm sure that someone will find some. :0
The half-orc inquisitor has wretched upper body 'armor.' That's an example of what I'm on about. She's got huge boobs, and a metal push up bra instead of real armor. It's too bad, as the rest of the pic is good. The boob display armor totally ruins it for me, though.
The human barbarian girl looks too sexy and too punk rock for me. That said, she's a pulp fantasy barbarian girl,and by the standards of her type she's almost modestly dressed.
Regarding "scars girl", I'm not sure if you're familiar with why she has those scars or not. However, being as I'm somewhat familiar with the character, I'm really not eager to see more of that sort of thing. The reason behind it makes for a great villain to hate, but... well, let's just say I prefer artwork that strives for idealized beauty over beauty destroyed.
For me personally, the destruction of beauty because it is beautiful is something I find abhorrent. Since we've been discussing the iconic characters a lot here, I would be unfavorably inclined if such an iconic were introduced in the future. To me, it's a bit too close to the "rape as an empowerment story" trope.
Not sure if I can communicate my sentiments on the matter precisely at this hour, but if such artwork became the norm, it would not have a positive impact on my purchasing decisions — particularly for cover artwork. Being as this is a game of imagination that we play, I find beauty far more inspiring than plainness or ugliness.
Well, as a long time gamer I'm accustomed to the cheesecake and certainly find such pictures attractive if they are artful enough and eye rolling if they are lacking badly drawn or ace clearly done for no other reason than to show skin.
Its fantasy and fantasy includes sexuality to some extent. And since there are many men in the hobby it tends to be male sexuality, both in the drawings of men and women. Then again if you look at magazines aimed at women, the depictions of women are generally pretty sexy and provocative.
I also think as much as producers order sexy art, artists like to draw it. There is a beauty and emotional surge from creating something you find appealing and evocative.
When I was first asked to do art orders for the advance feats series I decided to specifically avoid cheesecake female characters. For the Witches Brew I asked for a male witch with understated sex appeal just to challenge the normal idea of the sexy witch or the old hag witch.
http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/OPD/OPDAFTWBE_500.jpeg
He's not especially sexy but neither is he ugly or they typical super stud.
For Cavalier I asked for a female subject but one that was specifically athletic and whose face was the primary female attribute. I asked for heavy armor and not to have her be too curvy.
http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/OPD/OPDAF4CCE_500.jpeg
Its a bit dark but if you zoom in you can see the details.
Neither is going to get that immediate "interest" you might get on a sexy babe shot, but I don't think the sorts of gamers that by 3PP crunch products buy them for the pin up girls and I wanted to give the products a more "serious" feel.
I looooove Paizo's artists, they really give the works great look and feel. I'm working on our Oracle book and the pathfinder oracle is pretty evocative but I still love the style and coolness of the costume even if from a practical standpoint it would be absurd to adventure in. She looks cool and there is more to the costume that just looking sexy.
I just have to try and be a bit different so I specifically avoided sexy babes for our covers.
The elf girl's armor looks designed to enchance and display her cleavage, yeah. That's actually the only complaint I have in regards to her.
Being as I actually make costumes, I'm really hard-pressed here to think of a single commission where one of my female customers hasn't wanted their garment to enhance or otherwise flatter their figure in some way. Hell, I've spent most of the day working on a new corset for my aforementioned artist friend.
Guess what a corset does for cleavage. ;)
If you are inclined to say, "Oh but that's a corset, it's not armor!" Then I'll kindly ask you to please read the post I made on page 1. So that you can understand where I'm coming from: if you extrapolate an entire person out of a character (i.e. more than just an autistic killing machine), then there are other considerations that would come into play in their lives.
Victoria's "Secret" is that the 'perfection' you see is actually created by garments making the most of what the wearer has. They create something magical from what is more likely than not not quite as stunning as the woman buying it would like. It just seems a bit absurd to me to hold a fantasy character to standards that don't fit even many real life women. If women in 21st century Earth wear wonder bras, why would fantasy women not do the equivalent? Bodices and corsets are period-correct clothing for the same basic timeframe on which games like D&D and Pathfinder are based (i.e. Renaissance + magic).
At this point I can't recall if it was in this thread or in that blog post, but do you recall someone mentioning a cosmetics company tried using "normal" models once and how it very nearly ruined them? Most of the population are already normal. They don't need a product to help them look normal. However, they might be inclined to spend money on something than can help them look remarkable.
Now you can apply your own value judgement to that if you like, but I see little productivity in turning a blind eye to basic human nature and our competitive tendencies. And yes, trying to look better than others around you is a type of competitiveness.
The elf girl's armor looks designed to enchance and display her cleavage, yeah. That's actually the only complaint I have in regards to her.Being as I actually make costumes, I'm really hard-pressed here to think of a single commission where one of my female customers hasn't wanted their garment to enhance or otherwise flatter their figure in some way. Hell, I've spent most of the day working on a new corset for my aforementioned artist friend.
...
Now you can apply your own value judgement to that if you like, but I see little...
Right, but you make COSTUMES, not ARMOR or PRACTICAL CLOTHING FOR SPELUNKING AND TOMB ROBBING. There's an important difference there.
I served two years Iraq in a medical company that was never less than 50% female in composition. Despite what what you have said, none of these women dressed like strippers. In fact, I'm insulted that anyone would suggest that my friends would have trucked around Iraq in linegerie and corsets if only regulations had allowed. These women weren't having fun with cosplay, they were placing their lives at risk to help and protect others.
Go look at female soldiers, bush pilots, EMTs,firemen, merchant sailors, coal miners, speleologists, hunters, snipers, sewer workers, etc. You won't find too many at work in 'sexy' outfits. Dangerous and dirty jobs call for more practical gear.Many such jobs call for protective gear.
Now look up Mathilda of Canossa. She was a total badass, and is one of my heroines. Oddly enough, the chroniclers must have forgotten to mention her 'chainmail bikini.' :)
It's hard for me to suspend disbelief and accept that so many female adventures lack even basic common sense, and care more about looking sexy in the dungeon or wilderness than they do about survival or practical matters. Some might wear corsets in battle, sure, but we see way to much of this for it to be written off as a quirk. If the art were focused on 'dancing at the saloon/attending the ball' scenes, that would be one thing. Fighting, hard travelling, etc in some of these outfits? No, I'm not really buying it, guys.
YMMV, as always.
Nice costume work, BTW. I checked out the links on you page.
Regarding "scars girl", I'm not sure if you're familiar with why she has those scars or not. However, being as I'm somewhat familiar with the character, I'm really not eager to see more of that sort of thing. The reason behind it makes for a great villain to hate, but... well, let's just say I prefer artwork that strives for idealized beauty over beauty destroyed.
Hmmm, my reaction is the opposite. I think that's a pretty good backstory.
Some thing a little flamey, which makes me think that she didnt read my whole post on context and appropriateness of dress.
In response
My questions were for the Original Poster. He has avoided answering them, I would like to know if he ever has.....
I was not having a go at female gamers and I was not suggesting that everybody wants to play a glorified bimbo - Role-playing is about fantasy and escape and a lot of people want to be Wolverine and others want to be Storm, to put people down for that is elitist and smacks of a paternal/maternalistic I know better then you attitude.
The point I was trying to get across about the Iconics is that they are Paizo's movie stars. They are the Brad Pits, Haley Berries, Hugh Jackmans, and in Harsks case Brian Blesseds of Paizo. Its what brings people to the box office.
Then I asked the original poster to look at the NPCs and the other art work as they are far more realistic in their portrayal of people as Cyrus shown in his posts.
Finally - my post was about context (please re-read it) - and appropriate dress, I said that Seoni's was the least appropriate for adventuring but Seoni would probably look good in a trash bag. As she is the Star of the movie (The big budget block buster) the audience expects the female lead to be attractive. But as in any movie its the other actors that are far more interesting.....
Like I said I mainly play dwarves who are short, fat, hairy, solemn prone to melancholy and thwaking people with the biggest axe they can find.
I am currently playing a female human who is an exiled noble woman, who's husband and 2 of her 3 children were killed infront of her. She is a fading beauty with no money and her goals are to gain power and position in Korvosa. (Big change from the dwarf thing but I am having fun).
Some thing a little flamey, which makes me think that she didnt read my whole post on context and appropriateness of dress.In response
My questions were for the Original Poster. He has avoided answering them, I would like to know if he ever has.....
I did answer your questions. I think that you owe me an apology.
That was his point...
I wonder if you idealise your own characters?
Are they good looking?
Are they attractive to members of their preferred gender?
Does your internal image of your characters fit the cheesy/beefyness that you have a problem with in the art?Various PCs of mine have been described as plain-looking, average joe, scarred, pockmarked, homely, weaselish, etc. A few have been described as basically good looking, but none have been described as romance novel cover art.
Who looks sexy wading through sewers while hunting wererats, or burning green slime off a buddy's legs? Who looks sexy in the middle of a bloody fight with orcs?
I'm now playing a female PC in an online game who looks like Ginnie Weasly from Harry Potter flicks, although dressed in different garb. Good looking? Sure, she's got a pleasant face. She's also a teenage girl and not what I, a grown man, find 'sexy.' I just thought that the image fit my concept since my PC is a young female wizard. Dalorna Fenswick is a lawful good necromancer with undead veg minions, as it happens. :) She looks like what she is, practical and sensible: no makeup, no piercings, no fancy jewelry, no revealing outfits.
Did you miss this, 8th Dwarf? Or did you just not like the answers I gave? Are you referring to some other questions?
Did you miss this, 8th Dwarf? Or did you just not like the answers I gave? Are you referring to some other questions?That was his point...
I wonder if you idealise your own characters?
Are they good looking?
Are they attractive to members of their preferred gender?
Does your internal image of your characters fit the cheesy/beefyness that you have a problem with in the art?Various PCs of mine have been described as plain-looking, average joe, scarred, pockmarked, homely, weaselish, etc. A few have been described as basically good looking, but none have been described as romance novel cover art.
Who looks sexy wading through sewers while hunting wererats, or burning green slime off a buddy's legs? Who looks sexy in the middle of a boody fight with orcs?
I'm now playing a female PC in an online game who looks like Ginnie Weasly from Harry Potter flicks, althopugh dressed in different garb. Good looking? Sure, she's got a pleasant face. She's also a teenage girl and not what I, a grown man, find 'sexy.' I just thought that the image fit my concept since my PC is a young female wizard. Dalorna Fenswick is a lawful good necromancer with undead veg minions, as it happens. :) She loosk like what she is, practical and sensible: no makeup, no piercings, no fancy jewelry, no revealing outfits.
I did indeed miss your post and I regret that I did not see it before I replied to Vixengamer.
... cool so you play some "good-looking guys" on occasion.
But you like to play "average Joe mostly" I get that and I understand that you prefer that you see that reflected in your world view and experience...
For me the game is not about the art, and the experience is what you make in your imagination not from the front cover.
The Art is the packaging - a movie poster, its something for people to look at and say cool... Some people it works for, and some it puts off...
Its about risk and profit, you may not buy because you are put off by the art... My wife will buy she likes the art, I buy not because of the art I like the mechanics, the stories, the adventure, and that James Jacobs and Erik Mona reply to posts and I feel that I am included in the creation of some thing truly cool --- art is about number 10 on my list.
So Paizo has to weigh up the risk - will the art put off more than it brings in.... judging by the sales and success I would say they have a fair balance.
I did indeed miss your post and I regret that I did not see it before I replied to Vixengamer.... cool so you play some "good-looking guys" on occasion.
But you like to play "average Joe mostly" I get that and I understand that you prefer that you see that reflected in your world view and experience...
For me the game is not about the art, and the experience is what you make in your imagination not from the front cover.
The Art is the packaging - a movie poster, its something for people to look at and say cool... Some people it works for, and some it puts off...
Its about risk and...
I tend to assume average or plain looks, unless I have an interesting flaw or oddity in mind. I've played a number of homely or disfigured PCs, as noted. If I happen to roll a high CHA, I may consider whether 'basic good looks' would make sense. I don't necessarily go for it, though, as CHA is mostly personality.
I don't ever play 'pretty boys' or 'movie stars.' That's just not my fantasy.Like you, I'm a dwarf fan. I also like haflings and gnomes, though I've yet to play a gnome. Most of my D&D PCs have been human males.
I'm not boycotting Paizo. The cheescake in some of the PF stuff isn't enough to overcome my respect for the company's excellent game design,cool settings, great book line up for Planet Stories, etc, etc.
It's just an irritation.
Art does impact my gaming purchases. It's not as important as a good setting, mechanics that work well, etc- but it does matter to me.
EDIT- Did I mention that I really like the decision to give back to halflings their big, furry topped feet? HOBBIT POWER! Now we need some dwarf ladies with facial hair and gnomes with big honking schnozzes.
Hell yeah.
Right, but you make COSTUMES, not ARMOR or PRACTICAL CLOTHING FOR SPELUNKING AND TOMB ROBBING. There's an important difference there.
Maybe it's just because I play so many games that are in an urban environment... maybe it's because some of my favorite characters don't rely upon their martial capabilities to get by... However, I feel like we are talking past one another.
Like I was trying to convey on pg 1, those are instances in which someone is expecting trouble. Just going about one's daily life in a city or countryside where you aren't necessarily expecting trouble, it's far more believable to let your hair down. Also, if you are on a diplomatic mission or trying to get information out of someone, showing up clad in lots of armor might just telegraph your intentions.
I served two years Iraq in a medical company that was never less than 50% female in composition. Despite what what you have said, none of these women dressed like strippers. In fact, I'm insulted that anyone would suggest that my friends would have trucked around Iraq in linegerie and corsets if only regulations had allowed. These women weren't having fun with cosplay, they were placing their lives at risk to help and protect others.
Go look at female soldiers, bush pilots, EMTs,firemen, merchant sailors, coal miners, speleologists, hunters, snipers, sewer workers, etc. You won't find too many at work in 'sexy' outfits. Dangerous and dirty jobs call for more practical gear.Many such jobs call for protective gear.
If you are insulted because you misunderstood what I said, then I'm not sure there's much I can do about that. I typically go over my posts about 5× before I'm finished, so I'm usually pretty thorough. Once again, those are people who are not only expecting trouble but required to wear a uniform. They are also members of larger organizations with government scrutinized protocols.
While I've seen plenty of player characters that are members of a religious or military organization, I'd say there's a much higher percentage who are vagabonds. Regardless, if regulations permitted... I suspect most people would weigh the risk of their surroundings against what they find comfortable and suiting their sense of style.
Now to turn your assertion around on you. Should I be insulted that someone would suggest that anyone who shops at VS is essentially a stripper who would go about their daily life dressed only in lingerie if they thought they could get away with it? As you can see by holding up a mirror so-to-speak, that's obviously not what I was suggesting. :)
Now look up Mathilda of Canossa. She was a total badass, and is one of my heroines. Oddly enough, the chroniclers must have forgotten to mention her 'chainmail bikini.' :)
OK, I think the biggest disconnect between our opposing viewpoints is one of expectations and and from where we take our gaming influences. From your posts and the imagery you have linked to, I'm gathering that you prefer a grittier, more historically-inspired game. The type of imagery I would associate with such a campaign would be markedly different from one that is largely inspired by comics, animé and action movies.
If someone is expecting Joan of Arc and they get Bleach, I'm pretty sure there's going to be some confusion going on. As 8th Dwarf points out, a character like Seoni is supposed to be the blonde bombshell movie star. While there might not be such an equivalent if you are expecting a gritty historical game, if you are expecting one based upon influences that are appealing to more and more of the younger games, then you might not blink twice.
When I see Seoni I think, "Well in a world full of magic where a spell is more effective than a goretex coat, and she can magic invisible armor into being, why would she wear a lot? Wouldn't heavy robes just get in the way of her somatic gestures? I bet those glyphs on her robe and body help to augment her power. Maybe that's why she doesn't need material components."
At any rate, I think that's all it boils down to really: influences and expectations. Golarion is certainly grittier and contains more adult themes that many of the preceding "D&D" settings. That said, in many ways I feel like the expectation has been set that the magical and fantastical are represented at a higher baseline where as the ceiling on how epic you can get has been toned down. That works for me. Viewed thru that lens and my own desire for a more cinematic game, the character artwork works for me.
Nice costume work, BTW. I checked out the links on you page.
Cool, thanks for saying so! That's one of the things I like about this place. People can disagree and still remain pleasant. :)
I would like to see more variety with the looks of women in Golarion. Give us some gals who look plain, scarred, ugly, plump,frumpy, mousy, etc. I'm not saying that all the female characters have been 'too pretty', or that I object to the occasional odalisque, but dialing down the fanservice would certainly please me. Give us more hard-bitten adventuresses who look the part, and not like swimsuit or lingerie models.There's these:
Scars and pox marks- GOOD STUFF! That's more like it. As I had noted in my initial post, Paizo has definitely taken some in what I'd say is the right direction. They may be ahead of the curve for D&D and related games.
Are there any female iconics, other than the Battle Herald whom I had previously noted as a good example, who are not large breasted, showing skin, etc? More like the scars girl you showed me, perhaps?
The pox marks and bad teeth are on Rhodel, the major supporting character in my webfiction "The Secret of the Rose and Glove."
I would also submit that Ralice from Ed Greenwood's new webfiction is plain and frumpy (if somewhat badass).
Also, Omaire from J.C. Hay's "Blood Crimes" is specifically described in the story as dressing in practical garb (even if the artist decided to draw her as Lara Croft anyway).
Neither Lini or Merisiel are paticularly large (though the clincher i think makes merisiel look a little larger.)Amiri and Kyra are medium sizedish
Sioni, Alahazra and the witch are large.
While the inquisitor is truely buxom(you don't often seem a powerful built and buxom woman in fantasy art especially dresses as conservatively as she is dressed)
The elf girl's armor looks designed to enchance and display her cleavage, yeah. That's actually the only complaint I have in regards to her. At least she's not in plate with a boob window/push up bra effect.
I'm not sure if I can properly communicate may incandescent hatred of the boob window in armor. It vexes me.
The gnome druid- yeah, she's different. I really like her. She's child sized with a proportionately huge head. Of course she's not sexy. Instead, she looks non-human, a bit mysterious, and very much like a druid. Great job, Paizo artists!
Cheesecake usually uses the man-sized races like humans, elves, and half elves. I haven't seen much gnome, halfling, or dwarf cheesecake out there. Yes, I'm sure that someone will find some. :0
The half-orc inquisitor has wretched upper body 'armor.' That's an example of what I'm on about. She's got huge boobs, and a metal push up bra instead of real armor. It's too bad, as the rest of the pic is good. The boob display armor totally ruins it for me, though.
The human barbarian girl looks too sexy and too punk rock for me. That said, she's a pulp fantasy barbarian girl,and by the standards of her type she's almost modestly dressed.
Merisiel: From the infomation we have on Merisiel, she is not someone who makes her living from stand up fight. She is a rogue, vagabond and footpad with a morality system that would be more at home in a sociopathic cat with ADHD that a professional soldier. As such basing your assumptions on what makes a practical outfit for her are perhapes off. It is entirely possible that in reality, what we see on Merisiel isn't an outfit designed to act as a defense, but rather a destraction and tool of manipulation. For almost two years, i was ruthlessly(within the bounds of friendship) manipulated with the power of clevage. I am normally relatively strong willed, but she was a very successful flirt and carefully close clothing, the entire purpose of which was to make the most of her talents and assets. And she was able to leave me so flustered, and making such a fool of my self that i would entirely loose my train of thought for five or so minute.
Lini(and other gnomes): While the definative lini art does not have the same sexualised traits as the other female Iconics, she is not without traits which can make her sexually attractive or even always without some of the traits common in the definative, and within wider pathfinder art, cheese cake does not entirely remain the province of the medium sized folks (see academy pigtail gnome). All of which leads me to believe that there is a degree of active choice about Lini's appearance.
Amiri: As you rightly point out, Amiri is pretty much the shining light of barbarian princess art.
The Half orc: Again, we simply do not know exactly what we are seeing in the image. maybe it is meant to be working armour, in which case artistic licence has been taken, or maybe we are eeing something else. Like blessed armour provided by a church worn out of a sense of duty, despite being in appropreate. Perhapes it was real armour, and was altered, but the smith didn't know what they are doing. Perhapes the exposes(and actually fairly small by breast windows standards) section is a sign of faith( "i don't need armour here because god x will protect me")
And all that is before we get into the fact that we are dealing not with the real world. Golarion magic armour has in at least one written example provided protection where no metal is present. As such it is entirely possible to take appearance as a major design concern in construction of custom armour.
Zombieneighbors wrote:
OK, I think the biggest disconnect between our opposing viewpoints is one of expectations and and from where we take our gaming influences. From your posts and the imagery you have linked to, I'm gathering that you prefer a grittier, more historically-inspired game. The type of imagery I would associate with such a campaign would be markedly different from one that is largely inspired by comics, animé and action movies.
I think that must be part of it, yeah. I'm not much of a comic book fan. I thoroughly enjoyed the Sandman series, though. Most fantasy anime I've seen is too glam for my taste, or just too over the top. Princess Mononoke is a notable exception to that. I don't watch many action flicks, these days.
I'm a history major with a focus in Antebellum U.S. history. I'm also interested in other periods and places; Medieval Christendom, Early Modern Europe, the Ottoman Empire, the colonial period in Latin America and the Caribbean, etc, etc. I like my fantasy to draw upon history and to create its own history. That's one of the things I positively LOVE about Tolkien's works. Middle Earth is suffused with a sense of the past. I like to read and re-read the appendices in Return of the King. Towards the pulpy end of the house, I've always appreciated that REH used real cultures of the past as inspiration for the nations of the Hyborian Age. I fell in love with John Bellairs' Face in the Frost from the few first pages, which include a brief but compelling description of the history of the chaotic, fragmented South Kingdom.
You mention grittiness. Well, three of my favorite fantasy series of more recent decades are: Thieves World, the Black Company, and A Song of Ice and Fire. So, yeah, I like grit. :)
Zombieneighbors wrote:
OK, I think the biggest disconnect between our opposing viewpoints is one of expectations and and from where we take our gaming influences. From your posts and the imagery you have linked to, I'm gathering that you prefer a grittier, more historically-inspired game. The type of imagery I would associate with such a campaign would be markedly different from one that is largely inspired by comics, animé and action movies.I think that must be part of it, yeah. I'm not much of a comic book fan. I thoroughly enjoyed the Sandman series, though. Most fantasy anime I've seen is too glam for my taste, or just too over the top. Princess Mononoke is a notable exception to that. I don't watch many action flicks, these days.
I'm a history major with a focus in Antebellum U.S. history. I'm also interested in other periods and places; Medieval Christendom, Early Modern Europe, the Ottoman Empire, the colonial period in Latin America and the Caribbean, etc, etc. I like my fantasy to draw upon history and to create its own history. That's one of the things I positively LOVE about Tolkien's works. Middle Earth is suffused with a sense of the past. I like to read and re-read the appendices in Return of the King. Towards the pulpy end of the house, I've always appreciated that REH used real cultures of the past as inspiration for the nations of the Hyborian Age. I fell in love with John Bellairs' Face in the Frost from the few first pages, which include a brief but compelling description of the history of the chaotic, fragmented South Kingdom.
You mention grittiness. Well, three of my favorite fantasy series of more recent decades are: Thieves World, the Black Company, and A Song of Ice and Fire. So, yeah, I like grit. :)
You might consider checking our the Artesia comics. I think that you'd probably enjoy many elements of them, if you can get over the sex ;)
You might consider checking our the Artesia comics. I think that you'd probably enjoy many elements of them, if you can get over the sex ;)
Sex is fine in comics, novels ,movies, etc just so long as it fits the story and is not depicted in a graphic or prurient manner. IMO sex should normally be handled 'off screen.' Graphic sex scenes in books, comics, movies etc are usually done in very poor taste and aimed at the lowest common denominator. Hinting is often a lot more effective than showing.
Romance and sensuality, though, can be great story elements if handled properly. A lot of authors and artists suck at this, but the good ones make up for it.
I've heard good things about Artesia from others. Maybe I will check it out. The art looks good.
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I don't know if it's 'cheesecake' but the interior art of the Inner Sea Primer is pretty uncomfortable viewing: both suggestive (just check the panting, wolf-whistling responses on the blog) and seriously jailbait.
I looked once ... then twice ... then about twenty more ... sorry, still didn't see anything even remotely resembling what I'd consider jailbait.
Different art style, definitley; but I dunno. Guess that's the problem with this debate, the subjectivity is off the scales of any practical chart.
I'm glad it's not just me. The interior art is pretty much all pictures of flags...
Maybe he's referring to Iomedae? :)
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Maybe he's referring to Iomedae? :)
And Kyra, and the Chelaxian devil-binder. They've got the gangly limbs and unlined, slightly-flat faces of 14-16 year old girls.
@ ewan cummins
Probably the best sex-scene in cinema is in Don't Look Now. It reveals character and the way in which they are grieving and is essential to understanding the following scenes.
same reason the opposing turn Beefcake I suspect.
BTW PEOPLE I find the terms beefcake and cheesecake to be offensive.
they are both degrading and should be banned from Paiso's boards
that said, to get past the art, all one has to do is remember its fatasy AND the cultures on Golarion are NOT I repeat are NOT the cultures on earth.
ever hear the phrase when in Rome?
I would never use them to refer to a person: in photos or artwork I take it to imply the poses or clothing or lack thereof. I don't see that that demeans the model (only the artist, if you dislike it).
I was rather disappointed in that side of Paizo's artwork and I won't even start on my teenaged daughter's take on the sheer impracticality of some outfits.
Boobplate and Stripperific outfits are such a standard of female depictions in Fantasy Art that a product with no objectification of the female form would be unusual in the extreme.
The simple fact of the matter is that for the most part the gaming community wants heavily idealized individuals in their games, especially High Fantasy.
Yes torso windows and boobplate would actually be deadly but we're used to Conan wearing a loin cloth and slaughtering men by the dozens. The simple fact of the matter is that games like D&D present a objectified Hollywood view characters. Helmets are missing, armor is designed to heighten assets, weapons are oversized or the individuals carry a half dozen or more.
If you are wanting a more "realistic" game there are definitely games like that out there. WFRP 1e-2e are grim an gritty although still heavy on the fantasy, Harn is basical medieval europe with a tiny amount of fantasy mixed in, etc.
Characters like Seoni and the Bishi-boy Magus are undeniably objectified, others like Seelah and Harsk aren't really objectified (well Harsk might be objectified for a Dwarf Male - it's inconclusive). Most of the other character kinda hang out in the middle.
I think that's fairly appropriate and in keeping with the aesthetic tastes of the target audience which is probably male and somewhere between 18-30.
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Maybe he's referring to Iomedae? :)And Kyra, and the Chelaxian devil-binder. They've got the gangly limbs and unlined, slightly-flat faces of 14-16 year old girls.
Hmm, still don't see it — certainly nothing I'd call 'uncomfortable'.
For Iomedae, I just see odd makeup style.
Different perceptions of art I guess.
Boobplate and Stripperific outfits are such a standard of female depictions in Fantasy Art that a product with no objectification of the female form would be unusual in the extreme.
The simple fact of the matter is that for the most part the gaming community wants heavily idealized individuals in their games, especially High Fantasy.
Yup. For this reason I have a high tolerance for cheesecake in RPG product art. In fact I'm a lot more likely to look at a picture and think "that depiction isn't nearly attractive enough" rather than the other way around (prime example: Lucrecia in Hook Mountain Massacre is supposed to be CHA 23, but instead she looks like a middleaged Victoria spinster who just ate a bad lemon.)
My problem with a lot of the art is instead the anime style spiky hair and the donkey ears on elves. I've had to assure my players that on my "campaign copy" of Golarion elves, half-elves and gnomes don't really look like that, it's just one artist's impression of them, and no more accurate regarding humanoid form than Picasso or comic artist Jim Lee.
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Boobplate and Stripperific outfits are such a standard of female depictions in Fantasy Art that a product with no objectification of the female form would be unusual in the extreme.
You know, you actually have a point.
The culture of fantasy art, and I'm thinking back to the big name classics like Frank Frazetta, Boris Vallejo, Luis Royo, etc., up to some of the more popular moderns has always had a certain lack of clothing, compromising position kind of side to it.
I'm inclined to think that in that context alot of this is as much old habits are hard to break, as it is any actual intent to exploit certain genders or races.
Yes torso windows and boobplate would actually be deadly but we're used to Conan wearing a loin cloth and slaughtering men by the dozens.
Sure,except that Conan usually wears normal clothing like boots, breeches, a tunic, etc and he often wears armor. Anyone who has read the stories is well aware of this.
Yes torso windows and boobplate would actually be deadly but we're used to Conan wearing a loin cloth and slaughtering men by the dozens.
Sure,except that Conan usually wears normal clothing like boots, breeches, a tunic, etc and he often wears armor. Anyone who has read the stories is well aware of this.
I thought this was about the cheesecake images though, not written stuff, if you dismiss Conan's unrealistic art as being ok because he is written differently you have to dismiss female art unless the woman in question is never described in story as wearing armor or normal clothes(well, you don't have to, but it seems like you'd want to look at both sides the same way).
It's pretty much the exact point someone made earlier, the unrealistic art is the idealized, action movie poster of the characters in the book. The characters themselves wear appropriate clothing on a regular basis, not the costumes they are depicted in.
I thought this was about the cheesecake images though, not written stuff, if you dismiss Conan's unrealistic art as being ok because he is written differently you have to dismiss female art unless the woman in question is never described in story as wearing armor or normal clothes(well, you don't have to, but it seems like you'd want to look at both sides the same way).
It's pretty much the exact point someone made earlier, the unrealistic art is the idealized, action movie poster of the characters in the book. The characters themselves wear appropriate clothing on a regular basis, not the costumes they are depicted in.
Exactly the iconic pictures represent a heroic ideal of high fantasy beauty/handsomeness/dashing good looks, as such they are exactly like movie posters or magazine covers, etc.
You can even rationalize them further by indicating that for the most part it's the artist's rendering of a heroic character rather than an accurate portrayal. Characters are buffer, sleeker, more attractive than they would actually be if they were wandering a dusty catacomb or filthy sewer (both common adventuring locations).
For example Seoni represents a high fantasy ideal, that of the highly sexualized female sorceress, which is an extremely common trope in fantasy (although it tends to be a evil sorceress in practice). As such she's extremely attractive , charismatic (the rules require this), in charge of her sexuality, etc. She could be described as a bad cliche or you could use her highly idealized imagery and rescue it through characterization. Thus she could be highly sexual, and willing to use her looks to distract people, etc but she could be doing it in a sex positive manner and reclaim and modify negative stereotypes such as the slutty sorceress.
Also keep in mind that RPGs are basically pure escapism, while some people want to stay in hardcore simulation mode (see Harn) for the most part gamers want to escape from their dreary humdrum lives and play a character that is any combination of smarter, more attractive, stronger, more powerful, more charismatic, wiser, etc than they are. If idealized depictions help people escape from their lives for 2-3 hours a week then I'm okay with that even if the actual art might be more objectified than some people might like.
Besides Wayne Reynolds is a pretty brilliant artist and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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I prefer art that I don't need to 'rationalize', because it actually looks like the sort of stuff you'd expect from reading the book,playing the game, etc.
That said, no one's trying to take away your Seoni. ;)
I'm just suggesting that Paizo scale back the fanservice and give us a little more grit to match their fairly gritty house setting. The grit level is okay now, but could be improved.