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You know, I was thinking about starting a thread where I talked about some of the fun stuff that I've done while playing as a kender, and seen done by others, and inviting KenderKen and a few other to join it.
Were those shenanigans fun for everyone?
Or just fun for you? And the GM you colluded with?
Serious question, no trolling.
Fun is a very subjective term, especially when it relates to screwing over other PCs, and usually depends heavily on which side of the screwing you are on.
As can be seen from the 'What was your last straw?' thread, some people take great delight in hazing and griefing their fellow players. For every tale of woe in that thread, there's a group of sociopaths looking at a suddenly-empty chair, and drawling "What was her problem? Some people just can't take a joke.".
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Or just fun for you? And the GM you colluded with?
Everyone in the group enjoyed them. Then again, we were playing to have fun, not to WIN THE GAME!!! And yet we still managed to beat the bad guys in the end, while having loads of fun, and coming away with a humorous story. Actually, the guy who was the most hindered by one of the things I did was among those who laughed the hardest about it.
[Dwarves] find halflings, elves, and gnomes to be too frail, flighty, or “pretty” to be worthy of proper respect.It doesn't say that SOME dwarves do this, or dwarves GENERALLY do this, it says "DWARVES DO THIS"."Proper respect" does not mean "no respect", which is what you keep alluding to.
You've refused to address this before, you continually insinuate that it means "no respect".
Find another analogy, because this one has been shut down.
Actually, it hasn't, although his allusions don't exactly make him 100% right either. How would you play a stereotypical dwarf around a stereotypical elf in that the former refused to show proper respect to the latter?
What's the difference between not being treated with proper respect and being treated with no respect?[Dwarves] find halflings, elves, and gnomes to be too frail, flighty, or “pretty” to be worthy of proper respect.It doesn't say that SOME dwarves do this, or dwarves GENERALLY do this, it says "DWARVES DO THIS"."Proper respect" does not mean "no respect", which is what you keep alluding to.
You've refused to address this before, you continually insinuate that it means "no respect".
Find another analogy, because this one has been shut down.
Good question. But certainly, if Pathfinder's dwarves thought these other races were worthy of no respect, the rules would say that.
Alas, they don't, which shoots down the already weak analogy.
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In a world that follows the logic of G-rated children's musical theatre, they're fine
I have to ask, have you ever actually read any Dragonlance stuff? The default Lawful Good race are a bunch of arrogant racist pricks who continually teeter on the edge of declaring genocide on anything that isn't an elf (and usually against other breeds of elf as well).
One of the evil races was created by magically aborting the unborn children of the good dragons.
A man who redeemed himself at the last moment to prevent the world passing into oblivion (ok, mostly for selfish reasons) was rewarded by being slowly tortured to death over the course every day and resurrected in the morning to begin the process again. This happened for a couple of decades or so, but went on for centuries or so from the "in the Abyss" perspective.
I could go on and on, but your painting of Dragonlance as a Disney G-rated world is a bit off.
Actually, it hasn't, although his allusions don't exactly make him 100% right either. How would you play a stereotypical dwarf around a stereotypical elf in that the former refused to show proper respect to the latter?
I'd be his bestest friend, and act as if we've known each other our entire life. We'd brew beer together, laugh at each other's jokes, and cry about each other's sorrows.
Oh, wait. You're asking how *I* would play it, not how KenderKin, Kthulhu and the rest would play it.
I'm not going to ennumerate every possible situation, but:
Near term: I'd tolerate the elf, but not befriend it. I'd ignore the niceties when it did me favors, only begrudgingly thanking it in the most extreme of situations (such as saving my bacon during a battle). I'd grumble under my breath about it being around and taking a full share of the loot, but not actively do anything to stop it from doing so.
Long term: If the elf continually displayed characteristics that went against the expected norm (frail, flighty, "pretty"), a certain amount of respect may develop for it.
Further, we're not even really talking "allusions" from Kthulhu:
1. Dwarves have no respect for halflings, gnomes, or elves. If your PC dwarf treats these characters with anything resembling respect, then they are metagaming.
The rules DO. NOT. SAY. "[dwarves] find halflings, elves, and gnomes to be too frail, flighty, or “pretty” to be worthy of respect."
They say "[dwarves] find halflings, elves, and gnomes to be too frail, flighty, or “pretty” to be worthy of proper respect.
Is "proper respect" defined? No, it doesn't appear to be, but even undefined, it's far different than the absolute of "no respect" that Kthulhu keeps lying about.
As such, his entire argument of "if a dwarf shows any respect, it's metagaming" is, in fact, shut down, because he's arguing a point that is not backed up by any rules. His analogy is inapplicable.
I could go on and on, but your painting of Dragonlance as a Disney G-rated world is a bit off.
So, basically, you're saying all of Dragonlance is crap, and kender just happen to be the floaters?
Makes more sense now.
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Now lets say you have some human librarian maintaining a magic library at the edge of the world with no other companion except her pet dog. Suddenly she has foundlings for all the above races dumped on her doorstep and she decides to raise them. What happens?
...the gnome would grow up with some passion, likely for cataloging and the Dewey Decimal System. The kender? He's continually taking books, misplacing them, and then lying about it. And he's continually caught in these lies because his brothers and sisters have learned to keep an eye on him and have occasionally made their Stealth checks.
The gnome would probably go into apoplexy over this, because mis-shelving the books is the most unforgivable sin to his personal obsession, but everyone else would just conclude that the kender who they grew up with is sadly not right in the head, fundamentally broken in some awful way.
TOUCH ME BOOKS AN I'LL CUT YE! I DON' CARE IF YOU'RE MENTAL!
You can get away with an amazing amount of death and mayhem with a G-rating so long as you don't cross the line of assorted taboos.
I really don't see Dragonlance crossing that line.
I certainly don't see the Kender portions crossing that line. Yes, a dragon burned down Kendermore. So what? Smaug did the same thing with another town in The Hobbit, and the Rankin-Bass animated version of that from my childhood also had a very firm G-rating.
Eh... I had a player whose every character engaged in theft from, or harassment toward, every other party member, and always found an excuse for it, whether it be alignment, class, low Wisdom or Charisma scores, or his own interpretation of how the race behaved. He never played a kender, to my knowledge. He probably didn't even know what one was.
That said, I never saw a reason for a badly-thought-out, shod duplicate of something already done impossibly well by a much better-educated English Professor far more qualified in the act of creation, whose Product Identity I never really felt comfortable inserting into my D&D games, anyway.
The only "kender" I ever cared about was the Lodoss War version: that "grass runner," Maar. At least he's enjoyable when listening to him recite poetry in Japanese.
You can get away with an amazing amount of death and mayhem with a G-rating so long as you don't cross the line of assorted taboos.
I really don't see Dragonlance crossing that line.
I certainly don't see the Kender portions crossing that line. Yes, a dragon burned down Kendermore. So what? Smaug did the same thing with another town in The Hobbit, and the Rankin-Bass animated version of that from my childhood also had a very firm G-rating.
Have to agree here. Dragonlance setting + first 6 novel, had a G rating. Most 2nd Ed D&D was ratting control for content at that time, for mass market appeal.
Removed some posts. Please be civil to each other.
Here is my take on Kender ;)
KENDER
Kender are somewhat of an enigma. They came after the other races and are neither Dwarf nor Gnome. They seem to be a combination of teenager and 6 year old, and they always have a heart of gold. While they are frustrating its hard to stay mad at the little people because they are always happy and always trying their best to be helpful. They always have a story about their adventures or about their ``Great Uncle Trapspinger`` who seems to be a mythical figure that everyone is related to.
Kender tend to be Neutral with Good and Chaotic tendencies but can be any Neutral or Good alignments. If they become evil for any reason such as a helm of opposition alignment they immediately become catatonic until the situation is remedied as with a remove curse.
Kender are a race of childlike creatures that resemble wizened half elven children. Their hare ranges from Blond and Brown to black. Their eyes from blues and greens to browns. Their skins fair to tans.
Kender have high pitched voices that would make great quire voices, but otherwise can be grating when they ask to many questions. They would make excellent Bards with singing, dancing, instruments and oratory. Though almost any class they excel at. Some have been known to be Paladins or even Wizards, though its hard for them to be Wizards because of the concentration factor. And even their Paladins are kleptomaniacs.
Its just not their fault, they cant help it they don’t even know they are doing it.
Kender adventure because of a wanderlust that hits as soon as they are a teenager. They just have to see what’s over the hill or around the bend. And their intense curiosity wont let them be, they just have to see what’s in the box or behind the door or in someone pocket. They tend to ask lots of questions too as they want to know everything and tend to talk at the most inopportune moments. “I remember when we were trying to hide like this and someone kept talking and we couldn’t hide because he kept talking and…”
Kender have no sense of property, and in their communities everything belongs to the community. People wander into each others houses and borrow what they need. A pot hear, a rolling pin there. A bit of fishing line when someone wants to go fishing. If you had it and now you don’t, well that’s ok because your neighbour probably has it and you can just go and get it back.`
Kender are natural kleptomaniacs, which means that they take things without even knowing it. That means that they wont always grab the gold or jewels, they will take what ever is there. A book, a shiny rock, a feather, a paperclip. And they are like a raven or magpie, they get attracted to interesting things, a shinny rock is just as interesting as a shinny diamond. Or a pretty feather is just as wonderful as a colourful bead, or a sharp throwing knife. Now this does not mean they wont sneak in someplace and purposefully steal a priceless object, but they are just as likely to steal anything that fancies them on a day to day basis thinking they are just borrowing it. Or when they aren’t paying attention and their kleptomania is active take something unawares it could be anything, randomly. IE I am going to steal the evil Wizards magic item so he can`t use it agains my village. I am going to borrow the fighters boot to catch fish. Oh what`s this stuff in my pockets that he gives back to the Wizard that was the Wizards in the first place, that he didn`t know he even took.
Kender
-2 ST, +2 DX, -2 WIS, Base Speed 30,
Medium: Height 4 ft. Kender are medium and creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Stealthy: Kender receive a +4 racial bonus to Stealth checks.
Keen Senses: Kender receive a +2 bonus on Perception checks.
Sure Footed: Kender receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb checks.
Racial Skills: Picking Pockets, and Disable Device are always class skills.
Kender Luck: +1 Saving Throws,
Fearless: Immune to fear
They automatically get the bonus feats: Taunt, and Well-Prepared.
Weapon Familiarity: they are proficient in Hoopak (Staff Sling) and Chapak (Hand Axe, blowgun) and anything with the word Kender in it.
The Fighter wakes up and starts to put one his boots, and realizes there is only one. He turns and growls “Hey where is my boot?” The Kender cleaning fish for breakfast looks up and says in his high pitched voice. “Right hear, I was using it to catch fish.” “Catch Fish!” The fighter said flummoxed. “Yes, it was the biggest and darkest thing I could find.” “See how many I have caught.” He said with an innocent smile. The large man looked over, surprised to see so many fish at the little Kenders side. As the Kender was cleaning the Rogue walked past and grabbed the very sharp knife away from the Kender and without breaking stride said. “You get used to it.” The Fighter shaking his head quickly grabbed the wet boot and making sure the boot was empty and clean put it on.
After breakfast the Kender started to wander about camp. He spied the Wizard reading his spellbook and thought that looked interesting. As he came up to the Wizard he asked. “What are you doing?” Now the Wizard had long since given up saying things like words, and other things to try and get the Kender to go away, and he knew what Kender were like. “Say, can I ask you something?” He said. “Um, sure, what?” The inquisitive Kender replied. “I was wondering what you had in your pockets?” “Really!” Said the excited little fellow. “Why yes, its been bugging me all morning trying to guess.” “Ooh, I’ll show you.” He started to pull out all sorts of things from bits of string and feathers, to shiny rocks, some copper and silver pieces, a shiny gem, a slingshot. Then the Wizard saw something that looked familiar. “What’s that?” He said. “I am not sure, I find all sorts of stuff.” “Hmm, can I have a look?” “Sure.” He looked at some powdered diamond, some henbane, and various other spell components he had just yesterday. “Can I have this?” “Sure, I don’t need it.” Replied the little fellow. He pocketed his things and pulled out a shiny marble. “Here, take this, I don’t need it.” “Wow, this is wonderful.” The Kender jumped up and wandered off with the new treasure completely enthralled. The Wizard smiled having a pocket full of such things.
The Ranger was sharpening arrowheads when he spied the Kender wandering his way. He palmed most of the sharp heads but one, and most of the dull heads and placed them under his legs. He left a few dull and some beyond repair on a rock beside him and continued to sharpen as the Kender strolled up. “Oh hi, I can sharpen some for you.” And with that he took out his stone and began to sharpen on of the arrow heads that looked beyond repair. The Ranger was always amazed at how the little Kender could sharpen things, he could do an amazing business as a sharpener if he could keep from being distracted. “Say, when are we leaving?” “Soon.” The Ranger replied. The Kender started to ask all sorts of questions in his hi pitched voice, about how the birds sang, and if they would see wolves, and if the Ranger had a wife at home and, and. The Ranger tried to reply but the next question came faster than he could answer the last. Soon the Kender got interested in something else and left, leaving an amazingly sharp arrowhead on the log. The Ranger noticed that a few other heads were missing. When he brought out the other arrowheads from under his legs he noticed a few of them were gone too. He smiled, oh well, he thought, they will turn up.
You realize the people in the above scene had to have been drinking valerian root tea, if not smoking poppy gum, right?
I don't dislike the Kender as a race.
Some of my best friends are Kender.
All kidding aside, most of Dragonlance seems childish and different just to be different for different's sake, regardless of the feedback loops of stupid that occurr, and the have the Kender as a built in plot device so to speak to undo the stupid. I do not like Hickman nor Weiss' writing style and did not enjoy the couple books I read at all.
They made no sense, and didn't even feel like DnD. Especially the relationship between Caramon and Raistlin. After 1 year as adults, with normal people, that whole "he ain't evil I lubs my brudder" crap would have ended, unless Caramon was autistic.
That having been said, Lord Soth was a really neat character.
But, even a broken clock is correct twice a day.
Kenders in other RPGs tend to be an RP excuse to play an annoying twit rogue. Case in point, in games where Kender are not a viable player option or they just don't exist, annoying twit players will still play a halfling or gnome as an annoying twit rogue. They will often cite Kender as their inspiration, hoping to borrow some of the annoying twit justification for their own annoying twit-ness. Unfortunately, it almost always ends in dead annoying twit rogues, shifts in alignments and alot of facepalming.
/end rant.
My view on Kender and stealing
Kender live in a society where there is no belief of property. No one owns anything in per-say that the hammer that is in my hand belongs to every one and anyone at any time can come and take said hammer when and if they need it. I know that said hammer may be taken buy others as well and when I need it again, I will simply take it or another hammer from elsewhere because I have a need for it. Now if said hammer ends up in my pocket and I happen to forget it is there and I discover it at a later date and someone says they need their (our) hammer then I will relinquish said hammer as it is a community tool.
Now Kender out side of Kendermore bring their belief that all items belong to the community (party)and if you have something that interests me then it is ok for me to take said item. I may forget to put it back into your possession and if you happen to say, that is mine "I want It" (those are the key words) back, then I will gladly give it to you. Now I may have forgotten how I obtained said Item so I will just say I found it and I truly believe that as I do not remember how the item ended up in my hands in the first place.
(This was reason one for the Minotaur character, To keep other party members from killing the Kender)
My view on the Curiosity
I really want to know why some one place a sign on a door that says do not open, why, doors are made to be opened. Is it nailed shut, is there something I may want, is there a possible new friend behind the door or a new thing that I would find really interesting. I need to know, so why not open the door. I dont have that irrational feeling humans have that stops them from stepping in water to bath or why some cry when stuck in the dark, they make no sense to me, so why not open the door. Now I really need to know why not to open the door and to see what is making the humans not want to open the door. Their irrational emotion really makes no sense now, so Ill open the door and show them they're being silly.
The Kenders curiosity is something that is in everyone but the fear of the unknown is what stops other races not open the door. Its the Kenders lack of fear that makes their curiosity that much more of an over whelming urge.
(This is the second reason I played the Minotaur, to keep an eye on the Kender and stop him from opening the door before the thief checked for traps)
My thoughts on the fearlessness of Kender
In real life there is a disease that actually affects people by inhibiting the fear response. It is proven that those that suffer from said disease tend to take risks that those that do not suffer from it would. It is a specific psychological impairment, the result of a very rare genetic disease that damaged a brain structure called the amygdala (uh-MIG'-duh-luh). read this for a better understanding.....
http://www.app.com/article/20101216/NEWS04/101216061/Woman-with-brain-abnor mality-loses-the-ability-to-feel-fear-
The way I see it is the Kender race as a whole, mentally, suffer from the lack of any sort of developed amygdala.
And for those that dont want to read the article in its entirety, its about a woman who suffers from a complete lack of fear and the risks she had taken because she didnt have the fear response that would make a normal person not do them.
(The third reason for the Minotaur was to keep the Kender from walking up to a sleeping dragon and kicking it in the nose and getting the party killed....lol)
It's obvious a lot (most [all]) of the people on the forums hate them. But what the heck are they?
The reason our group never played Dragonlance. Well, them and the Tinker Gnomes along with their Hamstersaurous Rex...
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+1 the orginal write up is very misleading and filled with contradictions.....
No it was not. It may not match what you think a kender is but it does not contradict itself or mislead. It states plainly and clearly what a kender is. You kept saying it was different then the 2e/3e write up, saying they added things. So I posted the whole of the 1e write up, which was almost word for word the 2e/3e write up. They added nothing. It does not contradict itself, it shows that the kender are well insane. It tells you in great detail how they must be played. It tells you how they act and why they act that way. You do not have the option of not acting that way and play a kender.
The claw hammer thing you kept calling hyperbole, yet the rest of the write up back that up. It was not a random statement at all. The kender are thieves and can be nothing else. It is in their very souls, the stealing, the lies, the believing the lies they tell. It is what makes them kender.
I did not disagree with any of those points, stealing, lying and not knowing it......
can you tell me how both of these things are possible?
Example
1st edition wrote:
"Kendermore is only a short distance away from the remains of an old human city-state called the Ruins by the kender who explore it in droves. It is said that finding artifacts in the ruins is easy"1st edition wrote
kender philosophy
Four things make a kender's personality drastically different from that of a typical human. Kender are utterly fearless, insatiably
curious, unstoppably mobile and independent, and will pick up anything that is not nailed down (though kender with claw ham- mers will get those things as well).So how is it possible there is anything remaining in the ruins?
Given
1. It is nearby
2. The kender go there in droves
3. all kender remove everything not nailed down
4. kender with hammers get those things
5. It still has stuff to be removedAlso I said there...
Easy,
1: Kender enters ther ruins with some tools (for prying things lose or to use as levers to lift big chunks of stone to look under)2: Kender finds something interesting, puts it into bag, continues searching
3: Kender uses one of his tools, finds something interesting, puts it in bag continues searching, yet leaves tool behind
4: Kender finds some cool new tool which is good, since he doesn't need to remember where he left his.
5: Kender finds so many cool things, he can't just fit them all in his bag, so he leaves a small stasht of items to retrieve later
6: repeat until Kender is tired and returns home with so many cool things in his bag he just forgets about the stashes he left.