Can a 6th level character craft a bane weapon (CL 8) by increasing the Spellcraft DC by 5 (since he doesn't meet that particular prereq)?
From what I understand, the CL listed by the weapon (or any magic item) is not a requirement in crafting the item. Therefore, you don’t need to apply the +5 DC modifier if you are not at the same CL.
Now, I know with at least weapons and armor, your CL has to be 3 times the enhancement bonus of the item. So for example, if you wanted to craft a +2 enhancement bonus weapon, you would need to be at least a sixth level caster.
But I don’t believe pluses associated to abilities fall under that rule. So if Bane is a certain plus ability, I don't think that would apply.
Yes.
The only requirements for magical weapon crafting is for the crafter to have the feat and for enhancements to have a caster level equal or greater to 3 times the enhancement bonus.
The danger is for the caster to create a cursed weapon.
Ref Doc:
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
I think that the CL for things like Bane is as much a requirement as the "level = 3x bonus" is. I just can't figure out if they are absolute requirements, or if both can be circumvented by raising the Spellcraft DC.
I'm pretty sure that if the requirements list something like "creator must be X level," then you can't, in fact, avoid that prereq.
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I'm pretty sure that if the requirements list something like "creator must be X level," then you can't, in fact, avoid that prereq.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Only, in my understanding of the word, means that needing the feat is the one thing that cannot be bypassed and that everything else can be bypassed by adding a +5. If you know of a location of a Dev countering that or a different definition of "only" please let me know.
Not trying to be picky or anything. But I keep reading people saying that, but never been pointed to where it states that it cannot be bypassed.
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To my understanding there are two scenarios for CL.
In the first the CL is not explicitly listed as a requirement. In this case the CL is just a difficulty setter and not meeting the CL will not increase the DC further (i.e., no +5).
In the second the CL is explicitly listed (such as for weapons and armor). In this case the explicit CL is a requirement which requires the +5 DC mod when not met, but the other CL is just a difficulty setter (and if not specified, is assumed identical to the explicitly required CL).
In the OP's case, Bane is a +1 equivalent meaning that it has an explicit requirement of a CL of 3, and a difficulty-setting CL of 8. If you're CL is at least 3 then you set the DC based on the 8. If it's lower than 3 you set it based on the 8 and add an extra 5 for not meeting the explicit CL requirement. Since they are of CL6 they need only meet the DC, with no extra DC increase due to caster level.
</might-not-be-100%>
FWIW I know I've read an official statement somewhere that CL was (normally) just a difficulty setter rather than a requirement.
This is the very issue my group and I are wrestling with at the moment.
I have a level 7 fighter with Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms/Armour (ie for creating magic weapons he is treated as a level 7 caster).
From the PRD: Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities. (my bold)
Creating "plain" magic weapons is straightforward.
He can create a +2 weapon (2 x 3 = Level 6)
He can't create a +3 weapon (3 x 3 = Level 9). No option to increase the DC by 5 to overcome being a lower level.
But what about creating a +1 bane weapon (equiv to +2 weapon)?
As Bane is CL8 I don't meet the level requirement. But as it a +2 Weapon equivalent, can I add 5 to the DC and create it? ie I meet the caster level requirement (+2 x 3 = level 6) for its level equivalent.
A Flaming Burst (CL12) weapon would be +3 equivalent, so even if I were able to take the DC penalty, the weapon is +3 equivalent and therfore I would need to be level 9.
The bolded text above suggests that the Bane example would be beyond my reach until I hit level 8. But it does open up what could be seen as inconsistencies....
Axiomatic (CL7 and +2 equiv) - to create a +1 Axiomatic weapon (+3 equiv) do you need to be level 9? In which case the CL7 is unusual - or do you only factor in the value of the Axiomatic property (+2 = level 6). That is, you should only need to be level 6 to add Axiomatic to a weapon, but as it is CL7 you actually need to be level 7? Or is that the bit you can overcome by adding 5 to the DC?
Frost versus Flaming - CL10 v CL8 - but both are +1 equivalent?
I've read through a mountain of posts on this issue, but it is clear there is still uncertainty about aspects of the rules pertaining to crafting magic weapons and armour.
Sean K Reynolds - Developer
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/magicItemCreationAndCasterLevel&page=1&source=sea rch#3
CL is not a requirement that must be met and therefore does not incur the +5 check penalty. Otherwise, your 6th level caster would incur the penalty on making a Pearl of Power, 1st level (CL17). For a 1,000g item.
Sean says the CL becomes a prerequisite only if it is listed in the item creation requirements...and then...it is still only a prequisite. As noted in Happler's previous post, it can be overcome by adding 5 to the DC.
So the 6th level character can create the Sword of Bane incurring no penalties (as long as he can cast SumMonI).
From what I understand, the CL listed by the weapon (or any magic item) is not a requirement in crafting the item. Therefore, you don’t need to apply the +5 DC modifier if you are not at the same CL.
+1
The Cl listed for pre-made items has no relevance on PC's making those items its a Base Cl for the DM to use in NPC created item if any spells target these items.
So for Example you dont need to be level 17 to make a pearl of power.
the book says to make a magic weapon you need to be level 3 x the + of the item
+1 weapon? level 3
bane is a +1 enchantment
Ergo level 6 to make a bane weapon.
When you are higher level you can make your weapons at a higher CL to prevent effects from affecting them as easy. (though in most cases this probly isnt nececary)
So could a level 7 create a Flaming Burst weapon? Or because it is a +3 item would I have to be level 9? Or do you only factor in the +2 for the flaming burst? Or is that avoidable with a +5 to the DC or is it irrelevant?
So a weapon special ability that is, say, CL10, just mean that is used as the base DC for successful crafting of the magic item?
On a semantic issue, I find the use of prerequisite in these descriptions is probably not the most appropriate noun. Additionally the use of "must" adds confusion. Or at least do a bit of rewriting for clarity...
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite - a creator's caster level of at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements is used. If the caster level requirement is not met then add 5 to the DC for creating the weapon.
(suggested changes in bold)
AFAIK, the CL for Bane and other special abilities is not linked to the ability's cost in plusses.
The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon.If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
This means that to craft a Bane (CL8) Flaming (CL10) +3 (CL9) sword, I "only" need to be CL10 (although the monetary cost is still that of a +5 sword).
Otherwise, no +7 or higher weapon could be crafted in regular play.
We simply houserule that the "theoretical" bonus counts for the required level.
So:
+1 weapon = req. lvl 3
+1 flaming burst weapon = "+3" weapon = req. lvl 9
same for armor.
As we never had a "craft woundr. item" user, we don't had point out the issue there, but I would stick to
Caster level is only a prerequisite for creating the item IF the caster level is LISTED in the Requirements section of the item (for an example, see amulet of mighty fists).
here.
A +1 flaming burst weapon is NOT a +3 weapon, the +3 is only used to compute its price (for instance, it doesn't count towards bypassing material-related DR).
It has an enhancement bonus of +1 which requires a CL of 3
It has a special ability (flaming burst) which requires a CL of 12
From "Flaming Burst": CL 12th
From "Creating Magic Weapons": Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
AFAIK, the rules for creating magic weapons are more specific and thus override the general rules for creating magic items. The specific rules don't say that one can waive the "special prerequisites" listed, although I could see raising the DC by +5 for each missed CL prerequisite.
Actually most of you are wrong but a couple came close.
Bane-
Moderate conjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, summon monster I; Price +1 bonus.
CL 8th; REQUIREMENTS ARE HERE FOR MAGIC PROPERTIES! ; Price +1 bonus.
you need Craft Magic Arms and Armor, summon monster I. thats all you need. NO CL. as stated earlier the CL is only for default base caster level for GM use such as for dispel magic and overcoming other magic.
The price is a +1 bonus to cost not for creating.
also lets take the flaming burst weapon as an example again.
Flaming Burst-
Strong evocation; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Price +2 bonus.
; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; =thats the requirements that must be met. you MUST have Craft Magic Arms and Armor no way around that. IF you dont have ANY of the 3 spells listed you have to take a +5 to the DC for not meeting a requirement. You do not need a CL of 12 for Flaming burst, CL 12 again is for GM use.
to reinforce this fact take a look at this-
Flame Tongue (specific weapon)
Aura strong evocation; CL 12th
Slot none; Price 20,715 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This is a +1 flaming burst longsword. Once per day, the sword can blast forth a fiery ray at any target within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The ray deals 4d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit.
Construction
Requirements: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, scorching ray and fireball, flame blade, or flame strike; Cost 10,515 gp
notice how a flame tongue is is a flaming burst sword, and stronger at that, and in construction there is no CL requirement?
as stated in another section though
"The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon.
If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met."
since a flame tongue is a +1 weapon, at default, you need to be CL 3. but with this weapon you need the spells scorching ray AND fireball, flame blade, or flame strike. so you need 2 spells and only one is a 1st level spell.
an interesting thing i've noticed looking at the flame tongue is taking a flaming weapon to flame burst is a +1 price cost. meaning it appears you can take a flaming to flame burst for a total cost of +2 seems the flameburst overrides the flaming, it's not a +3 cost for instance...
hope this has been clear enough and helpfull!
Perhaps I'm wrong in my understanding. How do you (all) understand the following sentence?
If [a magic weapon] has both an enhancement bonus [like +1] and a special ability [like Flaming], the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Or is this a leftover from previous D&D versions and should be ignored completely?
Flaming Burst-
Strong evocation; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Price +2 bonus.; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; =thats the requirements that must be met. you MUST have Craft Magic Arms and Armor no way around that. IF you dont have ANY of the 3 spells listed you have to take a +5 to the DC for not meeting a requirement. You do not need a CL of 12 for Flaming burst, CL 12 again is for GM use.
+1
Perhaps I'm wrong in my understanding. How do you (all) understand the following sentence?
If [a magic weapon] has both an enhancement bonus [like +1] and a special ability [like Flaming], the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Or is this a leftover from previous D&D versions and should be ignored completely?
"must be met" means during the skill check to create the item. The CL must be met during item creation.
For example, if you are crafting a +3 Holy Crossbow the CL would be 9 (3 x enhancement bonus(3) = 9 vs Holy ability = 7)
So for this, a 5rd Level Wizard can create a
+1 holy keen vorporal scimitar (if he had the money) right?
That's sounds a little bit strange, especially if you don't go so far but hold it simple:
A level 3 Cahracter should have ~ 3000 Gold.
So lets imagine a group of 3 charaters put theit money together and so the wizard can create a +1 holy weapon greatsword for their barbarian at level 3 - sorry thats a little bit OP or?
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So for this, a 5rd Level Wizard can create a
+1 holy keen vorporal scimitar (if he had the money) right?
That's sounds a little bit strange, especially if you don't go so far but hold it simple:
A level 3 Cahracter should have ~ 3000 Gold.
So lets imagine a group of 3 charaters put theit money together and so the wizard can create a +1 holy weapon greatsword for their barbarian at level 3 - sorry thats a little bit OP or?
That in itself can be an adventure. they are taking time out of adventuring and have a possibility of ending up with a cursed weapon for all their trouble. Plus, the rest of the party will be under treasured by the end of it and fairly easy targets. So, this is a wise decision how?
Perhaps I'm wrong in my understanding. How do you (all) understand the following sentence?
If [a magic weapon] has both an enhancement bonus [like +1] and a special ability [like Flaming], the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Or is this a leftover from previous D&D versions and should be ignored completely?
according to how james jaccobs described it i would say this is a remnant. unless there referring to the CL needed to cast the required spell of the property.
This is another reason i feel paizo needs to put more work into revising the the core books as a lot of rules are just to loopy or confusing.
Price should in most cases be the deciding factor in when to be able to craft magic items.
I guess it really depends on how the GM wants to handle crafting in his campaign, though this should be decided before a campaign starts.
If you want to use the listed CL for creating magic items it's up to you, though some things seem really wonky. like the pearl of power and flaming for instance. even flaming has 10th CL listed, which at that point the whole party could afford an arsenal of flaming weapons...
Since a lot of pathifinder rules are are so wonky and broken i use a lot of houserules.
her's the solution i use.
enhancement bonus x3 for caster level.
for weapon and armor properties i use price bonus x3 for caster level.
for weapons and armor with multiple weapon properties i use the TOTAL PRICE bonus of the item x 3.
example a +1 flaming burst weapon would have a CL of 6 since flaming burst has a price bonus of +2. +2 x 3= 6 > +1 enhancement x 3 = 1.
a +1 flaming burst weapon of bane would have a CL of 9.
+2 price bonus for flaming burst +1 for bane x 3= cl 9
I've found this formula works good in my campaign and seems right on the money in power level. It makes me wonder if this was even how the rule was suppose to be intended... 15th level for a + 5 special property seems just right to me.
Again usually cost is going to be the deciding factor though.
@Tryn
Happler made a very good point on that one ;) plus whats every stopping characters from pooling there cash and just buying the item outright? plus you do know that craft magical arms and armor needs a CL of 5 to even take? which makes me wonder about needing a caster level of 3 to make a +1 enhancement item in the 1st place... seems enhancement bonus X 3 +2 would make more sense no?
So for this, a 5rd Level Wizard can create a
+1 holy keen vorporal scimitar (if he had the money) right?
That's sounds a little bit strange, especially if you don't go so far but hold it simple:
A level 3 Cahracter should have ~ 3000 Gold.
So lets imagine a group of 3 charaters put theit money together and so the wizard can create a +1 holy weapon greatsword for their barbarian at level 3 - sorry thats a little bit OP or?
Remember Jurassic Park. Just because they could make dinosaurs doesn't mean they should re-introduce a long extinct line of Thunder Lizards into today's world.
Just because the party CAN create the item doesn't mean they will or should.
Assuming the crafter creates the item correctly and makes his crafting check, all of a sudden a rogue comes out of nowhere and steals it. They have to fight to get it back. Players putting all thier eggs in one basket deserve to get a shiner. The DM can regulate it easily.
RunebladeX your idea sounds very good, I think I will use it. :)