Setting:
Gods controlled the flow of magic in the world until they died. After a few centuries, magic reappeared in the world.
Question:
How do Clerics, Paladins, and Inquisitors get their spells without Gods granting them?
Note:
It's easy to explain the other classes. Wizards and Magi study the mechanics, Sorcerors and Oracles are born into it, Druids and Rangers get it from Nature, and Alchemists use their own magical aura.
I'm not looking for a new game mechanic, just an explanation that works.
Thanks in advance.
You could say they just have the "divine spark" like an outsider with spell like abilities
Gods do not grant Divine magic.... they feed on Divine magic.
Cleric, Paladin, etc have natural (or Psionic) energy. They would have developed these power on there own, if left alone. The gods have been tricking them into link with them for years, and siphoning off some of that energy for them selfs.
Gods do not grant Divine energy to there followers, the gods use there magic to BLOCK magic energy, from followers that refused to worship a god.
... ok run with that idea ...
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The gods never existed, the Psionic Priest have been spouting the names of made up gods or using the name of Otherworldly being for centerers.
After all, when things go right, the Psionic Healers get offering and tribute to there gods, which they then use for themself to build church (bases), Missions (homes), etc. When things go bad, well it was not their fault, but the will of god, that the person did not get well. ((Scape Goat)).
Works for Fantasy Setting.
Moder or Future setting.....Sorry but that is Government Psi Core business, please stand back for your own safety, or you will be arrested.
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Magic, is how you explained the Unknown.
Divine, is how you explaned the Unknown.
Psionic, is how you explaned the Unknown.
What is in a name, but a name.
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So "The Force" in Star Wars.... was it Magic... Was it Divine (religion).... was it Psionic powers... Was it all three or a mix, or was it based on your persection of how the world worked.
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Why in the world would you need "Deities" in the world to cast Divine magic?? Other than the fact that you have been Brained Washed Into believing that it is a requirement ?? The gods do not create Divine magic.... Divine magic and Belief Created the Gods!!!
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Clerics, Paladins, etc are not "granted" spells, so much as they have learned/gained a knack for siphoning off that ambient divine energy that is left over from when the deities were alive. Think of it as sort of a scavenger feeding off the remains of what used to be a god. That could leave some off them more hesitant to use their spells as who knows how long before they use up all that remained of the former powers.
Maybe they draw their power from shared belief in a god or idea, rather than any specific being, and their spells are the result of the will of tens of thousands of mortals who believe in the same thing. Or maybe they have discovered a way to power their spells through their own life energy or souls, using their own existence and internal power to produce the external effects. You could even add in consequences for someone who draws too hard on that power or who uses the power for the wrong reasons. Or maybe they've discovered a way to use divine magic using the same principles that arcane magic is based on, tapping into the natural magical order of the multiverse through a divine formula or song.
Take a look at DarkSun Clerics worshiped the elements/dragons inorder to receive their spells since God's are just not there.
Can you provide a link for DarkSun?
Athas.org Check here for darksuns info for 3e.
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The actual baseline in D&D and Pathfinder is that Divine Magic comes from faith and one's sense of belief, wisdom, and self-knowledge. The Core books allow for Clerics, Druids, Rangers, Oracles, and arguably Paladins to get divine spells without a deity. Arcanists "know", but Divine practitioners "believe" and "understand".
In both Forgotten Realms, and limitedly DragonLance, Deities are required, but it is because in those two settings there is a thematic reason for it.
Have Divine Magic spring from the individual. Not like Sorcery which is an aspect of heretage, but rather a mystical understanding of yourself and spiritualality.
It is not like psionics, (should such a thing exist) which is more about unlocking untapped mental and sometimes physical potential already present, or like Wizardly magic, that depends on scientific understanding of principles and manipulation of energies around you, but rather about channelling things through yourself, and expressing your hopes in a miraculous way.
Arcane magic is an "art", Psionic magic is a "psuedo-science", but Divine magic is a "gift".
Why some DM's require a patron deity, I will never understand. All that does istake out a huge chunck of the players creativity, though I can nonally understand for PFS and te like.
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In 2E AD&D, a book introduced Forces and Philosophies as "patrons" for divine spellcasters. For example, you could worship the Force of nature instead of a nature deity, or the Philosophy of Good rather than a Good-aligned god. The power behind Forces is fairly obvious, but for Philosophies it's less so.
I describe it as magic being attracted to concepts (or, at least, the people who believe in those concepts), and the more popular a concept, the more magic it can attract. An organized faith built around one of those concepts can develop a "focus" for this magic, and learn to channel it into spellcasting.
As a partial aside, you (the OP) should probably figure out WHAT or WHO the Clerics, Paladins and Inquisitors revere/follow/worship before (or at least as well as) how they get their spells. Those two frequently go hand-in-hand.
Well, Arazyr, I had this idea for the Clerics that was based on alignments. It involves an Excel spreadsheet I created which had the various domains broken down by alignment, though not all were associated with one. Example domains like Magic and all of the Elemental domains were Universal, while obvious ones like Law went under the Law section, Healing under Good, etc. But I still ran into problems on how to explain it.
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Well, if Divine magic is from personal understanding and faith, then Domains bsed on Alignment would fit pretty well. Clerics that are good aligned would tend to gravitate towards healing, protection, holy, repose, sun, community, etc. . .
While the evil ones might be more inclined towards, death, distruction, evil, darkness, trickery, etc. . .
Things like animal, plant, fire, water, knowledge, travel, war, etc. . . might either be oen to any, or only allowed to very focused Clerics (Inquisitors or whatever).
As a last ditched effort to preserve some of their divinity, they instilled a small spark of it in each of their followers, whose decendants are now capable of divine magics without requiring a patron deity.
As a last ditched effort to preserve some of their divinity, they instilled a small spark of it in each of their followers, whose decendants are now capable of divine magics without requiring a patron deity.
There's an angle I didn't think of, and it makes sense given the few hundred years that pass before magic can be used again.
+1 on that idea.
As a last ditched effort to preserve some of their divinity, they instilled a small spark of it in each of their followers, whose decendants are now capable of divine magics without requiring a patron deity.There's an angle I didn't think of, and it makes sense given the few hundred years that pass before magic can be used again.
+1 on that idea.
As an added behind the scenes goodie:
Perhaps those original individuals are still around, having changed their identities over the centuries, moving about, acting as behind the scene shepherds of what is now their flock...This way, when you do need NPCs or beings to fill a god-like role, bam.
Unfortunately that won't work, the Gods themselves died out and didn't have enough power to make those individuals ageless. This may or may not have to do with the fact that the Gods started as mortals in the time before history.
Unfortunately that won't work, the Gods themselves died out and didn't have enough power to make those individuals ageless. This may or may not have to do with the fact that the Gods started as mortals in the time before history.
So are dragons and powerful outsiders the upper tier then?
So are dragons and powerful outsiders the upper tier then?
Except for Silver and White, dragons are a little different on this world. Don't want to go into details because it's off topic, sorry. As far as outsiders are concerned, I don't really like them to be the source of magic.
Except for Silver and White, dragons are a little different on this world. Don't want to go into details because it's off topic, sorry. As far as outsiders are concerned, I don't really like them to be the source of magic.
So are dragons and powerful outsiders the upper tier then?
Oh I didn't think they should be sources of magic, just was curious about who was filling the "head honchos" role if there are no gods.
The wonderful thing about organized religion is that it doesn't require proof of a deity, only the belief in one. Facts have never stopped religious belief.
The gods may be completely gone, but I would have to believe that their faiths remained (at least the more popular). The activities of most deities are mysterious to mortals at best, so the clergy likely still held faith in whatever those gods held sway over (justice, tyranny, luck, life, death, etc). They "remained calm and carried on" as it were, dealing with crises of faith as they occurred.
Perhaps even some of the more devout of the faith accomplished heroic or miraculous things, then being deified or sainted upon their passing.
So modern faithful worship the ideals of the departed gods, perhaps even forgetting what god in time, as the ideals and dogma defined the faith. They could revere and hold sacred exemplary and departed members of their faith.
And through their faith and prayers to their ideals, their magic comes forth; Faith Made Manifest.
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I wish they would remove the material component from Divine spells, and just require all to use a Divine Focus (grants Eschew Materials).
I also wish that there where a bigger divide between Arcane and Divine (since 3E came out), such as more creatures only having S.R. towards one type or things like that. Maybe individual spells have additional affects that only divine users or only arcane users can use.
They don't know.
Such classes still pray to their deities and despite never getting specifically answered anymore.. they still find their spells rewarded each day- and taken away if they stray too far from "the path".
It is the greatest of mysteries and the greatest of quests amongst the mid-high level Divine classes to discover just who or what is actually granting their spells.
-S
If the source of arcane magic was disrupted for centuries, being unavailable for use regardless of a wizard's knowledge or training, then the basic theological explanation is that the gods created magic the same as they did everything, and when the magic went away when the god's died, that's like water going away when there's a drought. When it comes back, it still follows the same physics, and magic likewise follows the same metaphysics.
Wizards got it back first because they had the best understanding of how to grasp it, and oracles and sorcerers got it instinctively. Clerics, paladins, and inquisitors get it by means of their faith in philosophies and higher ideals, a method which always worked but was frowned upon by the clerics who worshipped specific gods.
To put it another way, all the gods of the sea might be dead, but the sea is still there, and the concept of the sea and water are still there, so if some cleric starts worshipping the sea? Their faith taps them into that, and if they personify that faith with a face or a name of a dead god, it can still work. Of course, this may lead them to believing that the gods are still alive, but in truth it's just that the memory of the gods still exists. However, if the memory serves the same purpose as the god, it works just fine.
If the source of arcane magic was disrupted for centuries, being unavailable for use regardless of a wizard's knowledge or training, then the basic theological explanation is that the gods created magic the same as they did everything, and when the magic went away when the god's died, that's like water going away when there's a drought. When it comes back, it still follows the same physics, and magic likewise follows the same metaphysics.
Wizards got it back first because they had the best understanding of how to grasp it, and oracles and sorcerers got it instinctively. Clerics, paladins, and inquisitors get it by means of their faith in philosophies and higher ideals, a method which always worked but was frowned upon by the clerics who worshipped specific gods.
To put it another way, all the gods of the sea might be dead, but the sea is still there, and the concept of the sea and water are still there, so if some cleric starts worshipping the sea? Their faith taps them into that, and if they personify that faith with a face or a name of a dead god, it can still work. Of course, this may lead them to believing that the gods are still alive, but in truth it's just that the memory of the gods still exists. However, if the memory serves the same purpose as the god, it works just fine.
Low and Behold, After a Thousand year of said belief, do Yee gods return apon the land, reborn onto yee throw faith and prayer.
The only question being, why did the sea god go from being Neutral Good in times of old, to Neutral Evil, in this day and age :)
Was the Faith and prayer corrupted that much over the thousand years.
Thanks for all of the responses, but I guess it's time to clarify what I probably should have put in the first place.
How the gods came about:
A group of 7 mortals consisting of 3 Neutrals, 1 LN, 1 NG, 1 CN, and 1 NE located a device called the God Forge. This device basically took all of the magical energy of the world and distributed it to them all, making them gods. While they all granted spells to their followers, the main conduit of magic was the Goddess of Magic (one of the Neutrals). Then when they died, the mystical energy of the world took time to reset and balance itself.
The potential of this scenario:
The PC discover the Forge themselves and become the new gods.
Question: Do mortals know that the gods are dead?
Question: Do mortals know that the gods are dead?
Yes
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Instead of gods, use concepts, such as Evil, Good, Law, Chaos, Neutrality, Undeath, Life, Light, Darkness, etc (pretty much any of the domains). Maybe these concepts are actually gods, but just so far removed from the mortal world that they have been forgetten as anything other than those elements which they have dominion over. Or maybe these concepts themselves are so powerful that they don't require gods to be the middle-man.
Question: Do mortals know that the gods are dead?Yes
How do they know? You'd think the average lay-worshiper wouldn't be affected by the gods' existence one way or another, especially if divine magic is back around. A hundred years shouldn't be enough time to completely demolish a religious institution even after losing it's concrete proof in the gods, especially among the long-lived non-human races.
I'd imagine that cults and religions based around the sudden loss of magic might pop up and people may think the gods abandoned them, but there would still be long-lived priests or those who hang onto their faith even without proof. Then, once the magic returns, wouldn't people assume the gods are responsible and start worshiping them again?
I would go with divine magic being a deep connection to the more significant parts of one's soul that are "in-touch" to various planes.
That's how it determines the Domains one can invoked.
Planes and Souls are major parts of Divine Magic.
I think you just answered the question you meant to ask us. The mystical energy of the world resets itself by granting magic to those who should wield it. The knowledge of wizards becomes truth once more, sorcerers are again whispered the arcane secrets of their ancestors, and the prayers of the of those who seek miracles receive miracles. The magic language rewards its scholars, the children of ancient magical users' blood awakens, and faith is rewarded. These appear to be the fundamentals of mystical energy.
Let me just say thanks to everyone who answered this post. And special thanks to Pobbes for pointing out what I obviously missed. Never realized that it could be that simple. Once again, thanks to everyone.
May the journey of your characters be long and prosperous