I'm still not convinced it is a problem. It certainly isn't a problem for my style of play.
But balance wise, you can still opt to take a low-pre-req power like dodge when you are higher level and have other options. Dodge is still "worth a slot" as far as the game's design is concerned...
I can't really come up with an example of this kind of abuse. While it is possible to use swapped feats to get early access to a higher level feat chain, it is still sort of "experimental" in that if you want to do something else, you will lose those feats.
Upthread, we were listing the "advantages" vs. drawbacks of the feat, and this should definitely have been in there, even though it is pretty minor as things go.
If I could see even one example of abuse, it might tip the balance for me and I would want to then re-introduce a drawback to the feat... but it is still a close call.
What do you all think?
I'm not 100% convinced it will cause any significant problems myself, although as I said before, future-proofing would be a concern for me.
Whatever happens, I really hope you won't try and solve this by adding a drawback. I like the way there's no drawback and I really hate it when people balance the potential to abuse something with a universal extra flaw. That's not balance at all, it's untidy, unfair and makes the builds that would otherwise be too good almost compulsory.
The example is pretty simple and unimpressive. I'm a fighter. I hit 8th level and get Improved Battle Adaptation. Next morning, I practice using Greater Weapon Focus and from then on, I can use the feat. So far, so good. Then the trouble starts, because I also switch my original Battle Adaptation feat from Combat Reflexes to Greater Shield Focus. I now have one more feat requiring 8th level than it would otherwise be possible to have. Some high level feats are a lot better than those two, of course, but they're fairly typical, so they'll do for now.
The question is, is the ability to do that a bad thing? I can't answer that, but I can say that it looks like the ability to convert breadth of ability into hight of ability, which is a damn good trade, to say the least.
The example is pretty simple and unimpressive. I'm a fighter. I hit 8th level and get Improved Battle Adaptation. Next morning, I practice using Greater Weapon Focus and from then on, I can use the feat. So far, so good. Then the trouble starts, because I also switch my original Battle Adaptation feat from Combat Reflexes to Greater Shield Focus. I now have one more feat requiring 8th level than it would otherwise be possible to have. Some high level feats are a lot better than those two, of course, but they're fairly typical, so they'll do for now.
Thank you for the well-thought-out example.
I have to say, it is looking more like a feature than a bug to me, but I am a little biased. It feels almost like getting locked into the lower level feat is a problem and this fixes that problem, rather than being a problem itself.
Also, you have lost Combat Reflexes... something you might well end up kicking yourself for if the need for multiple AoOs should arise.
Nevertheless, it is an instance of a clear advantage to BA where before I thought it put you exactly on par with any other PC of your level for a given encounter...
You still need to focus on Combat feats in order to pull off this little trick though. So allowing the BA feats in your game amounts to allowing players who focus extensively on combat feats to get early admission into higher level feat chains.
Again, that doesn't sound too bad to me, but it needs to become a part of the accounting for GMs who want to adopt these feats.
Well done, Mort. Well done.
The example is pretty simple and unimpressive. I'm a fighter. I hit 8th level and get Improved Battle Adaptation. Next morning, I practice using Greater Weapon Focus and from then on, I can use the feat. So far, so good. Then the trouble starts, because I also switch my original Battle Adaptation feat from Combat Reflexes to Greater Shield Focus. I now have one more feat requiring 8th level than it would otherwise be possible to have. Some high level feats are a lot better than those two, of course, but they're fairly typical, so they'll do for now.
Well now I don't have to do all that work. I realize I was being a little offensive but I hadn't seen that possibility yet. Sorry. On that light the fighter could do some small shenanigans, but nothing too powerful.
Also could you guys give this a read? I posted some time ago, but it seems to have gone under the radar...
So Mort (or anyone) —
What would you do about the slight power boost?
Before, when I thought that BA characters were always equivalent to static builds, it made sense that the feat should have the low pre-reqs that I gave it.
Now that there is a slight mechanical advantage, there really is no reason to avoid BA if you have any combat feats at all.
Is there anything we can do to offset this advantage?
I'm open to any and all suggestions, but obviously I'd prefer to avoid some things myself. I'm very opinionated about feat pre-reqs and drawbacks.
This is what I would do.
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You excel at changing your tactics to suit upcoming situations. Each day you experiment with new techniques tailored to the expected enemy.
Prerequisite: Any two combat feats.
Benefit: After a full night's rest and one hour of rigorous practice, you may select any one combat feat which does not require a base attack bonus or fighter level higher than 7 for which you meet the prerequisites. You are treated as though you possess that feat until you practice another.
The feat effect granted by Battle Adaptation cannot be used as a prerequisite for any permanent effect such as a prestige class or feat. You cannot mimic the effects of Improved or Greater Battle Adaptation using this feat.
----
You have grown even more flexible with your battle tactics, and are able to rehearse even complex maneuvers on short notice.
Prerequisite: Battle Adaptation and any other four combat feats, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: As Battle Adaptation, except you may practice an additional feat during your one hour of practice, for a total of two feats. This second feat may require a base attack bonus or fighter level of up to 15.
Special: Feat effects granted by Battle Adaptation may satisfy prerequisites for the practiced feat.
----
You have mastered improvisation and may expertly practice a wide variety of techniques.
Prerequisite: Battle Adaptation, Improved Battle Adaptation and any other eight combat feats, base attack bonus +16.
Benefit: As Battle Adaptation, except you may adapt an additional feat during your one hour of practice for a total of three feats. This third feat may require any base attack bonus or fighter level.
Special: Feat effects granted by Battle Adaptation or Improved Battle Adaptation may satisfy prerequisites for the practiced feat.
----
I'm certain there's a much cleaner way of wording that, but it does the job. Yes, there are other kinds of prerequisite, but I don't see them being too big a problem. The main ones that scale with level are covered.
I would prefer that the prerequisites didn't increase. That will hurt some people before they can exploit the loophole, but leave everyone unrestricted once they can.
I still dislike the drawback idea. It would turn this into just another feat tree; an inferior version of what it imitates. If that happens, the exploit becomes the main reason to accept the drawback, so again we're punishing those who don't use it without significantly discouraging those who do.
The only inherent flaws in the feat tree we could highlight are that it doesn't let you qualify for anything outside of itself and that it takes time to change your temporary feats. I'm not seeing much potential for a fix there.
We could always say that you must practice every single day, rather than when you want to change your feat, but I don't see how that would address the problem and I don't like the party being useless without and hour's preparation each morning. I fully intend to house rule that out of the game for casters, so I'm not about to suggest giving it to the melee guys too.
None of these approaches will work and all will cause more problems, because none of them address the problem itself.
Rather than making the feat worse or harder to get, lets just stop it doing things it isn't supposed to do, or else declare the whole thing a non-problem and let some martial characters qualify for two slightly better feats by 16th level.
I approve of that solution. Nicely done!
Why thank you! *bow*
I approve of that solution. Nicely done!I have been too busy to get to a compute recently, but I see that Mort understood perfectly what I was trying to convey. I do think the rewrite is excellent, and thank you for listening to my input.
No prob, pobbes. Thank you for the input!
Yeah, I certainly hadn't noticed that before you mentioned it. Good catch.
I'm going to try these out in a short campaign I'm running. I'll see how they go!
I'm going to try these out in a short campaign I'm running. I'll see how they go!
Terrific! Do come back and tell us.
My own playtest has been... weird. We finished up that huge battle Sid describes upthread, but finals and social obligations have kept me from playing much at all. Soon, though.
Also, has everyone voted?
Bump! I just discovered a rather unfortunate loophole in that last version upthread.
"This second feat may require a base attack bonus or fighter level of up to 15."
Should read: "This second feat may not have an attack bonus pre-requisite greater than +15, or a fighter level pre-requisite greater than 15th."
Writing Game Rules is HARD. Don't ever forget it.
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You excel at changing your tactics to suit upcoming situations. Each day you experiment with new techniques tailored to the expected enemy.
Prerequisite: Any two combat feats.
Benefit: After a full night's rest and one hour of rigorous practice, you may select any one combat feat which does not require a base attack bonus or fighter level higher than 7 for which you meet the prerequisites. You are treated as though you possess that feat until you practice another.
The feat effect granted by Battle Adaptation cannot be used as a prerequisite for any permanent effect such as a prestige class or feat. You cannot mimic the effects of Improved or Greater Battle Adaptation using this feat.
You have grown even more flexible with your battle tactics, and are able to rehearse even complex maneuvers on short notice.
Prerequisite: Battle Adaptation and any other four combat feats, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: As Battle Adaptation, except you may practice an additional feat during your one hour of practice, for a total of two feats. This second feat may not have an attack bonus pre-requisite greater than +15, or a fighter level pre-requisite greater than 15th.
Special: Feat effects granted by Battle Adaptation may satisfy prerequisites for the practiced feat.
You have mastered improvisation and may expertly practice a wide variety of techniques.
Prerequisite: Battle Adaptation, Improved Battle Adaptation and any other eight combat feats, base attack bonus +16.
Benefit: As Battle Adaptation, except you may adapt an additional feat during your one hour of practice for a total of three feats. This third feat has no limitation on base attack bonus or fighter level pre-requisites, however you must still meet any pre-requisites to select the feat.
Special: Feat effects granted by Battle Adaptation or Improved Battle Adaptation may satisfy prerequisites for the practiced feat.