So in The Twice-damned Prince it states that the General Vourne has taken the Imperial Navy and headed down the Adivian River from Egorian to put an end to the chaos and unrest in Westcrown.
Well since the destruction of the Third Stavian Arche, large sea going vessels can't go up the river to Egorian. So does that mean the navy has no large sea going vessels? And what possible reason would Cheliax have for keeping it's imperial navy so far from the Inner Sea? Also I thought that Ostenso was the city in Cheliax where the Imperial Navy called home.
Also, How big is the Navy? Ships, crews? For that matter how many hellknights are there, or how big is the Cheliax army? When trying to liberate a city the size of Westcrown these can be important numbers.
Honestly, it's up to you to extrapolate the approximate size of the military force sent to investigate/quell the problems in Westcrown, let alone the entire military of Cheliax. What is it that you are doing that you need to know specific numbers? Cheliax is a big country with plenty of muscle to flex. Unless your PCs plan on starting a full on war against the infernal state then the answer should simply be: they have enough dudes.
If they -are- trying to wage a full on war or even fight the forces sent to Westcrown then that goes well beyond the scope of this AP. Be sure to let them know that this would probably be unwise.
As for ship and crew size you can assume stats for various warships from the corebook page 163 under transportation. Vourne's personal ship (I beleive it is called the Asmodeanaut) might be a bit bigger.
I also noticed the continuity problem with big ships coming down the Adivian. In my campaign they will be coming from Ostenso, the more logical choice to house the bulk of the navy. Of course, why a general is leading the navy around in the first place and not an admiral... I will never know.
It's not that I need exact numbers. But there are NO numbers. I haven't even started the AP yet but I can see players wanting to truly liberate the city (since that's the first big speech they get). And Since it is a walled city with a huge population it could withstand a pretty big siege for a long time if they managed to incite true rebellion amongst the dissatisfied populace.
So a number like 'hundreds of ships, with tens of thousands of marines' would be helpful. It's like how many hellkinghts are there in the order of the Rack? What about if the players get ambitious and try and take them down. With the help of a couple local powerful NPC's it seems like it might be possible. A party of level 12+ players can do some damage even to big armies or navys.
I'm a little dismayed at the lack of information given on Westcrown, and on any of the countries. I mean the whole AP takes place in one city, you would think they could add some people and places for the players to feel like they 'live' in the city. Sure I can figure stuff out on my own, but what happens when the next supplement arrives and I have to backtrack. Some real info might be nice even if it doesn't specifically pertain to a set encounter, you know what I mean. I seem to remember Cauldron having a lot more 'flavor'.
But that might just be me ... I think I'll send the navy from Ostenso too. Thanks for the info.
Zooman, I noticed the same thing, and it made no sense to me. The only thing I could think is that the fleet is somewhere in the Inner Sea and has been ordered to Westcrown. Vourne could be coming separately from Egorian if he'd been meeting with the Queen, if you wanted a separate timer pop for Vourne. Not sure how much good that would do, but it's possible.
I'm also interested in the numbers you mention in case my players want to make Westcrown an independent city-state. Haven't started that work yet because it's too far in the future for me, but I was thinking about using Red Hand of Doom as a model for a city siege/attack and the forces needed.
|
Something like this seems to be needed only for after the adventure path ends. A small band of Hellknights can take over them easy if they cause to much trouble.
The point isn't to liberate Westcrown. It is to make the lives of the Wiscrani better.
Any public talk of rebellion will get you some time and torture in Citadel Rivad.
If your players are really going to be chomping at the bit to start a riot, keep them busy and don't give them any down time.
In Westcrown at least, the head of the hellknights (And I would assume their most powerful member)is Paralictor Gonville Chard. He's level 9 and the average hellknight is stated as CR5 and level 6. Do you mean to imply that a group of 5 level 11 Characters are going to be taken into custody if they try to start something? When they are beloved by the citizens. Those Hellknights are as good as dead if they even try to make threatening gestures,even Lictor Richemar Almansor is only level 14, and he should be the most powerful member of the order.
And ya liberating the city COULD start with holding off a naval attack. Since they are coming to 'restore order' in some unspecified manner. Just showing up with lots of boats and marines isn't going to magically quell a rebelling populace. Unless of course they use magic.
I try not to underestimate the ambition of my players. Once their characters start getting levels under them they are as likely to put an arrow into Admiral Vourne and fire every ship docked in port as listen to him order them to attend a meeting on his ship. (Ya I know there would be consequences to that action, they would probably count on that.)
But I think I'm going off on tangents. I was just asking for some rough estimates in case the players get ideas. (They always seem to get ideas). I can pretty much be assured they aren't going to the hellknights for help unless they need armor and weapons to distribute. Maybe I'll switch it up for Dottari. But I expect that they are gonna clean out Citadel Rivad if they save the city and are level 12 with nothing else to do.
Zooman, it seems as though you're trying to run Council of Thieves in a capacity it was not meant for. CoT never intended such large scale fights. As Deidre said the AP is not about rebellion, it is about turning the city around and reviving it. I know that Janiven's initial speech is misleading but Arael's plan was to rescue the city's 'soul' rather than start a bloody rebellion that he knows will most likely end badly.
To me it sounds like your game will soon be finished and your players will be wanting to do more stuff after the AP as written has ended. That's fine if they want to do that. However, unless an official answer comes down from Paizo you're essentially asking fellow players what they -think- the size and strength of the military is. Your answer is simple: such a thing is not covered in the AP because the AP is not meant to cover this.
However, we do have a few things to go on if things go that way. We know that Thrune trafficks in devil binding and would use all of their resources to stop an honest-to-god rebellion. Thrune won't just sit around and let the PCs 'clean out' citadel Rivad or anything. You'll have a hard time challenging a high level party with vanilla troops. Turn to the backs of the CoT modules for the devils there and the ones in the bestiaries. Plenty of various devils with their chains held by hellknight signifiers would be a much better match than hordes of nameless and faceless soldiers. Rank and file troops should play a less important role so the numbers becomes less important. As for -rough- numbers, you seem to have answered your own question: hundreds of ships with tens of thousands of marines is more than you should need, really. A rebellion isn't about fighting an army because an army is filled with the same people you're trying to turn against the government. Your 'beloved' heroes would become much less so when they start killing what are still sons and husbands and fathers. Honestly, I'd just keep them in the background as that would be a nightmare of a battle to run anyway.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with sending at least one small horde of nameless and faceless soldiers to give them a different sort of fight. The majority should still be devils and things of similar power, they were what won Thrune the civil war in the first place. You can even invent a few high level hellknights if need be: a few now powerful ones who returned from crusade to the Worldwound when they heard the homeland was threatened. You don't need to limit yourself precisely to canon, especially if you're taking the game beyond the AP as written. It's your own game now and you might as well take liberties.
I didn't mean for this to be so long but I hope it helps.
Edit: you say they are as likely to kill Vourne and suffer through a seige of martial law. Are they sure they can really anticipate everything? Are they certain they can protect everyone? It would be a bloody, bloody outcome even for their level of power and the people would know this. Are the PCs really loved enough to get the city to rebel with them or would it just be them when it comes down to it? These are things to consider and things to remind them of. If they go through with it all then take the kid gloves off because they essentially asked for it. Thrune is powerful and you should emphasize this. Let them have it for better or worse.
|
|
I was trying to say that what you are talking about is beyond the AP. The navy is readying to come down, and the Drovenges are trying to take over the city, then restore order before they even get to Westcrown.
I therefore assumed that you were saying your players would want to take on the entire government of Cheliax at low level.
Anything beyond the AP is up to the GM. There are a few paragraphs at the end of the last module that can help out.
As long as SOMEONE gets order before the Navy arrives, all is ok. The Navy of Cheliax, fully ready to tackle a large-scale rebellion should wipe the floor with a party of 13th level characters.
Going after Cheliax is an epic-level goal. They have Pit Fiends at their beck & call.
Zooman, it seems as though you're trying to run Council of Thieves in a capacity it was not meant for. CoT never intended such large scale fights. As Deidre said the AP is not about rebellion, it is about turning the city around and reviving it. I know that Janiven's initial speech is misleading but Arael's plan was to rescue the city's 'soul' rather than start a bloody rebellion that he knows will most likely end badly.
+1
The fleet isn't intended to be an opponent, it's a plot device.
But, if you or your PC's are determined to make some kind of fight out of it the answer to your question is, "however big it needs to be to challenge your players."