Arrow Eruption (clarification on killing arrow)

[reefwood]

Quote:

You create exact duplicates of the arrow or crossbow bolt you used to kill a creature in the previous round and launch one at enemy creatures within a 30-foot radius of the corpse. You can target one creature per caster level (maximum 15) within range of the burst and must make a single attack roll and apply it to each arrow. These duplicate arrows possess all the intrinsic magical properties of the arrow that killed the original creature as well as those passed on to it by your bow. They also enjoy the full benefit of any bonuses or modifiers you applied to the attack from other magical items, feats, and class or racial features. However, this spell cannot reproduce any spells or other limited-use magical effects that you used to enhance that particular attack. This includes such effects as the true strike spell, as well as any area spell you might have placed on the arrow by means of the arcane archer's imbue arrow class feature.

How does the archer/caster know when a creature is killed by its arrow? Making a Heal check would make sense, but there is no set DC for determining if a creature is alive with a Heal check, and Heal checks are usually standard action, so you can't attack or cast a spell in the same round.

Also, if you know a creature is dead after you hit it with multiple arrows, how do you know which arrow killed it?

And what if the arrow indirectly leads to death but didn't actually kill it?

Example #1) Arrows drops target to -5 hp, but it is still alive, so arrow eruption cannot be cast on that arrow. The target is now dying, and even if it fails to stabilize and dies as a result, the arrow did not kill it. Failing to stabilize is what killed the creature, right? Also, the spell can only be cast in the round after the arrow kills a creature, so death from failed stabilization could occur rounds later and that length of time would negate the spell too.

Example #2) Target is at 7 hp and has a Constitution of 10. The archer/caster can fire 3 arrows per round: arrow #1 does 10 pts of damage and drops it to dying, but the attack continue for good measure, so arrow #2 does 10 pts of damage and arrow #3 does 10 pts of damage. The target is dead, and arrow #2 killed the target, but how does the archer/caster know which arrow to cast arrow eruption on?

[0gre]

I think the intent here is for it to work when you drop a creature not when you kill them. As it's written you will only rarely be able to use the ability. Even with just dropping the creature I don't see this being used often.

For what it's worth I don't much care for this spell because it encourages meta-gaming.

[reefwood]

0gre wrote:

I think the intent here is for it to work when you drop a creature not when you kill them. As it's written you will only rarely be able to use the ability. Even with just dropping the creature I don't see this being used often.

For what it's worth I don't much care for this spell because it encourages meta-gaming.

It does seem like it would make more sense for the spell to work when you drop a creature below 0 hp. Especially since "kill" isn't as technical in this system as "dying" or "dead" or "destroyed" (undead).

Also, how does it encourage meta-gaming? Would that only be if it did require the arrow to kill a creature (as opposed to dropping it below 0 hp)?

I am thinking of giving this spell to a couple Ranger NPCs in the game I run, so that is why I am trying to figure out exactly how it works and how the Rangers will know when they can use it.

[0gre]

Well normally you kill an enemy as fast as possible. For an archer this generally means filling him with arrows.

The spell encourages you to time the enemies death and make a single massive killing blow so you can spread that over a bunch of targets. For example I'd be tempted to keep a few holy or bane arrows in the quiver and save them for kill shots. An ideal killing blow would be using a bane arrow with deadly aim and vital strike.

Overall I like the spell, it's nice flavor but the fact that it's effects vary based on what arrow you shot in the previous round and what feats you applied makes it weird to me.

[reefwood]

0gre wrote:

Well normally you kill an enemy as fast as possible. For an archer this generally means filling him with arrows.

The spell encourages you to time the enemies death and make a single massive killing blow so you can spread that over a bunch of targets. For example I'd be tempted to keep a few holy or bane arrows in the quiver and save them for kill shots. An ideal killing blow would be using a bane arrow with deadly aim and vital strike.

Overall I like the spell, it's nice flavor but the fact that it's effects vary based on what arrow you shot in the previous round and what feats you applied makes it weird to me.

I see what you're saying now. At least I think so. Though, it seems to make sense even in-character to be strategic about the killing blow. To take out someone in the center of the enemy group and to pack as much power into that killing blow as possible.

The problem I that I would now see with meta-gaming is the players trying to determine how many hit points the enemy has. Because you don't want to use the powerful arrow until it is almost down to 0 hp. But aside from maybe a spell or specific ability, I don't think there is an easy in-character way for a PC to determine the level, and therefore hit points, of an NPC.

But if a PC had a limited spell or ability that was eventually gained, using it for the occasional awesome killing shot would seem fair as long as this knowledge was earned by the character and not metagamed by the PC. But yeah, more often than not, it unfortunately probably gets used through metagaming.

[Elven_Blades]

For non-metagaming solution with a small degree of accuracy, this is the spell you want, death watch.

The spell is a bit fuzzy on it's definition of Fighting off death (4 or more hit points). As a dm asked to select a category by a player, i would suggest that fighting off death be in the range of 4-20 hit points, but maybe more or less depending on targets max Hp, class role (caster, front-line, etc), class level, etc. Best way i can see without your players saying, "how many hit points does the baddy have left?".

[freduncio]

Pathfinder OGC wrote:

These duplicate arrows possess all the intrinsic magical properties of the arrow that killed the original creature as well as those passed on to it by your bow. They also enjoy the full benefit of any bonuses or modifiers you applied to the attack from other magical items, feats, and class or racial features.

One friend of mine thinks that this clause grants the explosion's arrows Favored Enemies bonus on all arrows, if the killed creature had the subtype needed, even if the creatures afected had not.

Example: Ranger with Favored Enemy Undead +4. He are fighting, let's say, zombies and human necromant. Kills one zombie. Next round he uses Arrow Eruption, affecting 3 zombies and the necromant. The necromant also suffers the +4 damage from the favored enemy, as the arrow used to kill the zombie in first place had it.

As DM my take is a "Hell, no", but I want to hear some opinions about it.

[Dr z0b]

I'm wondering exactly how this spell works as well. I presumed it just meant less than 0HP, but my question is do all the arrows hit automatically, as there's no saving throw?

As for the favored enemy question, I would say hell no as well.

[Unseelie]

Sorry for the necro... our group just looked closely at this spell today.

1) My reading of the spell, and specifically the "any bonuses or modifiers you applied to the attack from other magical items, feats, and class or racial features" would be that the favored enemy bonus would be included... IF it applied. In your example, the favored enemy bonus is for undead. The Necromancer is NOT undead, so no favored enemy bonus.

I'd also rule that even if the Ranger also had a favored enemy bonus for humans, they wouldn't get it here because that bonus is not part of the attack that 'killed' the zombie.

Now, another angle on the not metagaming the spell... the Ranger in my game was just gifted with three (count them, three ah ah ah) greater arrows of Fire Outsider slaying.

Well, you can either conserve these arrows and only use them when it's just the right moment...

Or, you target the weak fire elemental that's part of a group under the assumption that the arrow will kill it dead. At which point you now have an arrow eruption of greater arrows of fire outsider slaying... which is quite disturbing and as far as I can see, both RAW and RAI.

[o0NAVI0o]

Imbue arrow lvl 2 arcane Archer class ability("At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place a spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting. The arrow must be fired during the round that the casting is completed or the spell is wasted. If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted.") could that by pass ("However, this spell cannot reproduce any spells or other limited-use magical effects that you used to enhance that particular attack.") So if I imbue my arrow with suffocation then use arrow eruption on the corps?