Can a subject of the fly spell (or overland flight spell) hover in place?
Can a subject of the fly spell (or overland flight spell) hover in place?
RAW(From the PRD-fly spell):and its maneuverability is good.
You can hover if you have good or perfect maneuverability. There is a chart for it, but I can't seem to find it right now.
Can a subject of the fly spell (or overland flight spell) hover in place?If they make the DC 15 Fly Skill check, then yes.
There is a table in d20 SRD. I think it was changed in Pathfinder. For the worse, if I might add. The fly rules change along with the skill is one of the most absurd changes in Pathfinder.
From what I can find, there doesn't exist ANY creature that would automatically make a hover check.
Yar.
You will need to make a DC 15 fly skill check. If you do, then yes, you can hover. The fly skill has already been linked to above.
Maneuverability only gives you a bonus to the check. Auto hover from maneuverability is a 3x relic.
Also, there are MANY creatures that can auto hover due to their fly skill being higher than 14 (1 is NOT auto-fail, so you only need a +14 to auto succeed a DC 15 check). Will-o'-whisp has a +31, a Solar has a +32, Air Elementals have +17 and up, Faerie Dragons have a +23, many of the dragons also have fly skill mods higher than +14 - Adult Silver is +16 for example (I'm not going through everything tonight, so that's all you get). I'm sure there are more.
So yes. You'll need to make a DC 15 fly check. If you make it, you hover. If not, you must either move half your speed or start to fall.
~P
I agree that the fly rules/skill change is for the worse... just doesn't make a lot of sense to me that creatures with perfect flight can't automatically hover, or fly straight up. That a small air elemental has a 10% chance to fail moving straight up is silly, and that the chance grows as winds increase in strength is moreso imo... they are MADE OF WIND, they come from an entire plane of existance that is mostly just wind and them... that they are blown away by it.. ugh. Anyways, barring the rant, the 3.5 rules for flight and aerial movement are a bit more complex, but also a lot more complete.
All the creatures have maneuverability ratings just like in 3.5 so I know that is a factor in whether they need to make a fly check or not. I just can't find the new chart.
Hover
This creature can hover in place with ease and can kick up clouds of dust and debris.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: A creature with this feat can halt its movement while flying, allowing it to hover without needing to make a Fly skill check.
If a creature of size Large or larger with this feat hovers within 20 feet of the ground in an area with lots of loose debris, the draft from its wings creates a hemispherical cloud with a radius of 60 feet. The winds generated can snuff torches, small campfires, exposed lanterns, and other small, open flames of non-magical origin. Clear vision within the cloud is limited to 10 feet. Creatures have concealment at 15 to 20 feet (20% miss chance). At 25 feet or more, creatures have total concealment (50% miss chance, and opponents cannot use sight to locate the creature).
Normal: Without this feat, a creature must make a Fly skill check to hover and the creature does not create a cloud of debris while hovering.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterFeats.html
EDIT:
OK, but can you 5ft Step with a DC 10 Fly check?
Yar.
You will need to make a DC 15 fly skill check. If you do, then yes, you can hover. The fly skill has already been linked to above.
Maneuverability only gives you a bonus to the check. Auto hover from maneuverability is a 3x relic.
Also, there are MANY creatures that can auto hover due to their fly skill being higher than 14 (1 is NOT auto-fail, so you only need a +14 to auto succeed a DC 15 check). Will-o'-whisp has a +31, a Solar has a +32, Air Elementals have +17 and up, Faerie Dragons have a +23, many of the dragons also have fly skill mods higher than +14 - Adult Silver is +16 for example (I'm not going through everything tonight, so that's all you get). I'm sure there are more.
So yes. You'll need to make a DC 15 fly check. If you make it, you hover. If not, you must either move half your speed or start to fall.
~P
Will-o-Wisp has a +31 due to a high dex and 9 hit die. Otherwise it would have a +10 Fly. Not good enough to hover. Solars are epic level so I'm not even going to look at that. Etc.
In 3.5, ANYTHING with good maneuverability and better can hover. Ie, you get magic flight and you can hover. The whole Fly thing in Pathfinder is patently absurd and I don't even remotely understand why they spent their time changing the whole system like that.
All the creatures have maneuverability ratings just like in 3.5 so I know that is a factor in whether they need to make a fly check or not. I just can't find the new chart.Yes, all creatures have maneuverability ratings, but they don't do what you think they do anymore, it just gives a set + or - to the fly check based on that rating. Also, size gives + or - .
Could I get a link or page number. I am still using the 3.5 way of doing things, and if the new way is too silly I might keep using the 3.5 method.
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Well we've got a skill for climb, a skill for swimming so why not a skill for flying? Thank goodness for it too, after all the old 3rd edition D&D table pretty much gave every single creature who could fly a rather generic set of rules to fly by.
Now those with the other end of the spectrum can at least attempt to do some maneuvers if they get into trouble. It makes the monsters all the scarier when your not completely sure what they're capable of as a player.
Plus the Fly skill allows for easier resolution for the unusual events that crop up with flying. Taking damage, mid-air collisions and doing things in variable degrees of wind work very well from what we've been seeing actually playing the game.
If it's that big of a hassle to break your wizard combo always be flying thing, just design a spell that gives you a better flying maneuverability or put some ranks in the skill.
This is how I use it:
The Fly spell grants the ability to fly without wings, breaking any laws of constant movement required by gravity and air currents. As such, someone who is flying via the spell can move or stop in nearly any direction at will with movement rules akin to normal land movement. Movement while flying does not require Fly checks. Avoiding Fall Damage and High Wind Speed checks would still apply as well as complex maneuvers such as flying through falling debris.
If a spell gave the target wings which in turn allowed for flight then they would be subject to normal flight rules and all of the Fly checks.
The 3rd level Wizard Fly spell... give Good maneuverability and give a bonus to fly equal to 1/2 caster level.
So at 5th level that is: (+2 level) + (+4 Good) Maneuverablie = +6 bonuse
If the wizard has one rank in Fly 1 rank (+3 class skill) = +4
That would be +10 total at 5th level, or +11 at 6th level, with one rank in fly.
That is not that far off from the DC 15 skill need to hover.
...
This does encourage Druids mainly to speed one skill feature on learning to gain flying. Also, this means that creatures that speed ranks in flying will alway be better than some amateur wizard with a new spell, joy riding the skies with their new spells.
Could I get a link or page number. I am still using the 3.5 way of doing things, and if the new way is too silly I might keep using the 3.5 method.All the creatures have maneuverability ratings just like in 3.5 so I know that is a factor in whether they need to make a fly check or not. I just can't find the new chart.Yes, all creatures have maneuverability ratings, but they don't do what you think they do anymore, it just gives a set + or - to the fly check based on that rating. Also, size gives + or - .
I believe this is the only chart. It gives the DCs of various flight maneuvers and conditional modifiers. Maneuverability ratings now give a bonus or penalty to fly checks rather than limiting what maneuvers are available.
As per the above posts, +14 or more to the total fly skill modifier gets you auto hover... if you're a wizard that's too cheap to put ranks in fly, well, cast levitate + fly and stop whining! :)
Why the hell should a Wizard waste points in a skill that is ENTIRELY pointless for every single creature that flies via magic? Much less a skill that is completely useless for Humanoids. Fly should automatically allow you to do a number of things because it is magical flight. You aren't trying to flap your wings and stay in the air.
Well we've got a skill for climb, a skill for swimming so why not a skill for flying?
Indeed we do. And the moment you gain a climb or swim speed, those skills become more or less useless.
Take a hummingbird, there aren't any stats but we can assume they have 1 HD and are Fine size, I would say they have good maneuverability. Take their 1 skill point they possess and put it in Fly (what else are they going to take, Perform: Pleasant Thrumming?), and their skill is (1, +3 class skill, +4 maneuverability, +8 size) +16.
Hummngbirds are specifically examples of Perfect maneuverability. Or should be at any rate.
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As per the above posts, +14 or more to the total fly skill modifier gets you auto hover... if you're a wizard that's too cheap to put ranks in fly, well, cast levitate + fly and stop whining! :)Why the hell should a Wizard waste points in a skill that is ENTIRELY pointless for every single creature that flies via magic? Much less a skill that is completely useless for Humanoids. Fly should automatically allow you to do a number of things because it is magical flight. You aren't trying to flap your wings and stay in the air.
I disagree. Someone who puts practice into things should be better at it than someone who doesn't. Note that you don't need to make Fly checks for normal movement. It's only when you try to do something fancy, or under adverse conditions, that you need them.
Well we've got a skill for climb, a skill for swimming so why not a skill for flying?Indeed we do. And the moment you gain a climb or swim speed, those skills become more or less useless.
Take a hummingbird, there aren't any stats but we can assume they have 1 HD and are Fine size, I would say they have good maneuverability. Take their 1 skill point they possess and put it in Fly (what else are they going to take, Perform: Pleasant Thrumming?), and their skill is (1, +3 class skill, +4 maneuverability, +8 size) +16.Hummngbirds are specifically examples of Perfect maneuverability. Or should be at any rate.
Which would give them at least a +20 then. Also note that Sageasa hasn't included a Dex modifier. I don't think they'll have a problem hovering. Personally I'd put them at Diminutive size instead of Fine though.
So at 5th level that is: (+2 level) + (+4 Good) Maneuverablie = +6 bonuse
If the wizard has one rank in Fly 1 rank (+3 class skill) = +4That would be +10 total at 5th level, or +11 at 6th level, with one rank in fly.
Not quite, unfortunately. Note the text in the Fly skill about manuverability ratings. You only get the bonus if you have a natural Fly skill. I think the reference to good manuverability in the Fly spell is a holdover from 3.5, and the caster level bonus is meant to compensate for it.
The fly spell does not say that you do not need to make Fly skill checks. It makes those checks easy though, as you get a +4 bonus from the good maneuverability granted by the spell, and an additional bonus of half the caster level of the spell.
So, as an example, say we have a fighter (let's assume Dexterity 10) with a normal Fly skill value of +0. The party's 10th level Wizards casts fly on him, and he's up to +9 now, which lets him hover easily with take 10 (provided he's allowed to take it). However, if he's wearing armor, that might make maneuvering more difficult again...
By the way, having a climb or swim speed does not make the Climb or Swim skill irrelevant. You will still have to make these checks, but you get a +8 bonus and can take 10 even if distracted, so most of the time you will make the checks automatically, but having a Climb speed still does not allow you to automatically "walk up" a sheer wall or traverse a ceiling.
The Fly skill however differs from those, as you don't have to make checks at all just to fly, but only "when you are attempting a complex maneuver." That is why there's also no need for a Walk skill. You would not need to make a check unless you wanted to "attempt a complex maneuver" - and we already have Acrobatics for that.
I disagree. Someone who puts practice into things should be better at it than someone who doesn't. Note that you don't need to make Fly checks for normal movement. It's only when you try to do something fancy, or under adverse conditions, that you need them.
For a Wizard under the effects of a Fly spell to hover - ie, stay at the same height, in the same 5' square from round to round - he must take an actual, manual action via use of the Fly skill to do so. Please describe to me how.
Which would give them at least a +20 then. Also note that Sageasa hasn't included a Dex modifier. I don't think they'll have a problem hovering.
No, a Fine creature with Perfect maneuverability only get a +16 to Fly checks. It is the only creature that can always make a Fly check with a 10 Dexterity.
I think the reference to good manuverability in the Fly spell is a holdover from 3.5, and the caster level bonus is meant to compensate for it.
That's ridiculous. Maneuverability describes the ease of your physical ability to Fly in X manner, whether in 3.5 or Pathfinder.
I don't see how it would only give a bonus to those with a natural fly speed. Don't have my book here, but the PFSRD says:
"Special (Maneuverability)
Creatures with a fly speed receive this skill for free as a class skill. They also receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:"
Nothing about natural.
The Fly skill however differs from those, as you don't have to make checks at all just to fly, but only "when you are attempting a complex maneuver." That is why there's also no need for a Walk skill. You would not need to make a check unless you wanted to "attempt a complex maneuver" - and we already have Acrobatics for that.
The Fly skill replaces a perfectly sensible table and differs notably from other "natural movement" methods. I presume that's what they were originally trying to do - make a natural Fly speed more like a natural Swim or Climb speed - but I guess half-way through that Fly isn't that simple and messed up the whole thing.
No, a Fine creature with Perfect maneuverability only get a +16 to Fly checks. It is the only creature that can always make a Fly check with a 10 Dexterity.
Yes, it's the only creature that can always make a fly check when being slightly more clumsy than the average human. How many flying animals in our world are more clumsy than the average human? There's probably a few, I don't know how many of those can hover though.
Note that most flying animals have a size of fine to tiny, which means they should as a standard have a dex of between 18 and 14.
Level one creature that is small with good maneuverability and 1 rank in fly (as a class skill) will have what -- +12 on their fly check before Dex and that's probably going to add 2 at least meaning a +14. So that's done then moving on.
Now I do see some problems with the fact that fly, swim, and burrow all have different rules -- two of the three have skill checks and all four have different rules for doing much the same thing: Moving through a different medium (swim in water, fly in air, burrow in ground -- all are doing the same thing).
However I do like the fact that there is now a skill that will allow someone to hover with poor, average, or clumsy maneuverability without having to spend a feat doing so. For the fliers with less than good maneuverability the fly skill is actually an improvement -- and if you really want to hover without a skill check you can still take the feat.
The Fly skill replaces a perfectly sensible table and differs notably from other "natural movement" methods. I presume that's what they were originally trying to do - make a natural Fly speed more like a natural Swim or Climb speed - but I guess half-way through that Fly isn't that simple and messed up the whole thing.
The Fly skill however differs from those, as you don't have to make checks at all just to fly, but only "when you are attempting a complex maneuver." That is why there's also no need for a Walk skill. You would not need to make a check unless you wanted to "attempt a complex maneuver" - and we already have Acrobatics for that.
It's far more similar to swim now than it was before. Climb is kind of the odd child here, as swim, burrow and fly all are truly three-dimensional movements while climb is more of a two-dimensional movement in a sense.
And the swim speed isn't invalidated by a swim speed. Swim speed only allows you to skip really easy swim checks, and give you a bonus. Which is kind of the same as a perfect maneuverability fly speed does (as the bonus makes some checks trivial or completely unneeded).
As far as I am concerned, Fly should have been part of the Acrobatics skill and used to augment the 3.5 maneuverability-capability table.
As far as I am concerned, Fly should have been part of the Acrobatics skill and used to augment the 3.5 maneuverability-capability table.
I'm glad they dropped the 3.5 way, but I agree that fly could have been incorporated into acrobatics. On the other hand, so could swim...
Or they could have made an "athletics" skill, incorporating swim, fly and climb into one and having the same rules for swimming, flying and burrowing (which would also go under athletics).
Though I could see "hovering" with the burrow skill should be quite easy, heh... XD
As far as I am concerned, Fly should have been part of the Acrobatics skill and used to augment the 3.5 maneuverability-capability table.I'm glad they dropped the 3.5 way, but I agree that fly could have been incorporated into acrobatics. On the other hand, so could swim...
Not really. Swim and Climb and Jump would be Athletics, like in 4e.
Or they could have made an "athletics" skill, incorporating swim, fly and climb into one and having the same rules for swimming, flying and burrowing (which would also go under athletics).
The "special maneuvers" of fly aren't really Strength based (well most aren't) so they wouldn't be in Athletics.
Which is kind of the same as a perfect maneuverability fly speed does (as the bonus makes some checks trivial or completely unneeded).
Only if you are Small or smaller.
For a Wizard under the effects of a Fly spell to hover - ie, stay at the same height, in the same 5' square from round to round - he must take an actual, manual action via use of the Fly skill to do so. Please describe to me how.
Making a Fly skill check takes no action. However, if the Wizard is not skilled enough, he needs to keep moving. Really though, it's trivial to get a good check. There's nothing stopping a Wizard from dumping all (or nearly all) of his skill points in Fly at 5th level. Or having his almost-certain Headband of Intellect grant max ranks in Fly.
No, a Fine creature with Perfect maneuverability only get a +16 to Fly checks. It is the only creature that can always make a Fly check with a 10 Dexterity.
I was looking at the whole picture. Dexterity, skill ranks, class skill, maneuverability rating, size bonus, and possibly a Skill Focus feat. Again, trivial to get a high Fly skill for those who really should have it.
I think the reference to good manuverability in the Fly spell is a holdover from 3.5, and the caster level bonus is meant to compensate for it.That's ridiculous. Maneuverability describes the ease of your physical ability to Fly in X manner, whether in 3.5 or Pathfinder.
I'll quote the rules then:
Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.
I highly doubt anyone can argue that the Fly spell is a "natural" fly speed. So Wizards are out of luck on that bonus. Since manuverability ratings now only exist to apply that modifier, the Good rating in the Fly spell doesn't mean anything. Hence why I think it's a holdover from 3.5, and should have been removed.
Edit to add:
As far as I am concerned, Fly should have been part of the Acrobatics skill and used to augment the 3.5 maneuverability-capability table.
I think that skill does plenty already. Balance, Tumble and Jump. Why throw even more conditional modifiers at a skill full of them?
I highly doubt anyone can argue that the Fly spell is a "natural" fly speed. So Wizards are out of luck on that bonus. Since manuverability ratings now only exist to apply that modifier, the Good rating in the Fly spell doesn't mean anything. Hence why I think it's a holdover from 3.5, and...
There is a use for that "Good" maneuverability from the fly skill. Many of the largest dragons, some magical beasts, and probably a demon or devil fly with wings, but have bad maneuverability ratings. By casting a fly spell, they get a back-up in case of failed fly checks, getting paralyzed or stunned, or whatever.
More from fly skill:
"You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability)."
There is a use for that "Good" maneuverability from the fly skill. Many of the largest dragons, some magical beasts, and probably a demon or devil fly with wings, but have bad maneuverability ratings. By casting a fly spell, they get a back-up in case of failed fly checks, getting paralyzed or stunned, or whatever.
Interesting point, but I still don't think it works. Even though the dragon (or whatever) has wings, the fly speed granted by the spell still isn't natural, and thus the Good rating still doesn't apply. However they can stop flying using their wings and then their own, poor manuverability doesn't apply. They don't get the bonus from the Good, but they lose their inherant penalty. Their size penalty would still apply however.
Making a Fly skill check takes no action.
So how does he fail? He is magically floating in the air.
There's nothing stopping a Wizard from dumping all (or nearly all) of his skill points in Fly at 5th level.
Other than wanting to put them into USEFUL skills.
I highly doubt anyone can argue that the Fly spell is a "natural" fly speed.
Who cares? You are granted Good maneuverability.
If they DON'T get the bonus for it, that is just ANOTHER argument for the Pathfinder fly skill system being god awful.I think that skill does plenty already. Balance, Tumble and Jump. Why throw even more conditional modifiers at a skill full of them?
Are you HONESTLY complaining about a compound skill compounding skills?
Which is kind of the same as a perfect maneuverability fly speed does (as the bonus makes some checks trivial or completely unneeded).Only if you are Small or smaller.
Or having a dex bonus of +1. But yes, the circumstances are limited.
As far as I am concerned, Fly should have been part of the Acrobatics skill and used to augment the 3.5 maneuverability-capability table.I'm glad they dropped the 3.5 way, but I agree that fly could have been incorporated into acrobatics. On the other hand, so could swim...Not really. Swim and Climb and Jump would be Athletics, like in 4e.
Or they could have made an "athletics" skill, incorporating swim, fly and climb into one and having the same rules for swimming, flying and burrowing (which would also go under athletics).The "special maneuvers" of fly aren't really Strength based (well most aren't) so they wouldn't be in Athletics.
Hovering is probably more tireing than gliding/moving forwards, which could be represented by requireing strength rather than dex (yes, I know con is stamina but they often overlap). I can't fly, and I'm not that good with physics so I can't say for a definite, but I know that swimming for 30 minutes is less of a hastle to me than "walking in the water" (don't know what it's called in english, but the action where you kind of walk in the water to remain afloat). Of course floating in place is even easier but that's normally not an option for a flying creature.
Flying animals that hover a lot generally seem to be moving their muscles a lot more than those that have to move to remain airborne (unless they hover by gliding against the wind, which isn't really hovering but w/e). Thus, it seems hovering requires physical strength.
At the same time, I can very well see the climb skill being dex-based.
But it's all abstractions and nothing weirder than people getting better sight when they're old (wis bonuses). I can take that small hit to realism for the sake of having more easily understandable rules.
So if I were to do it, I'd personally make it:
Acrobatics (dex) - Balance, tumble. Skill mainly used for making tricks while moving on land.
Athletics (str) - fly, swim, climb, jump, (burrow). Skill used for moving in odd ways and performing tricks that can't be (or don't need a check to be) performed on land.
with some trait or feat or w/e that lets you add dex to athletics, much like intimidating prowess.
So how does he fail? He is magically floating in the air.
Making a Fly skill check takes no action.
That's a house rule. The spell says nothing about magically floating in the air, it gives a fly speed, and the fact that he CAN fail checks is proof that it does require some skill.
There's nothing stopping a Wizard from dumping all (or nearly all) of his skill points in Fly at 5th level.
Other than wanting to put them into USEFUL skills.
But flying is useful. Or are you saying that the fly skill is useless and shouldn't be taken so it's sad that it's required to fly well? Thats seems self-contradictory to say the least.I agree with you on the spell granting good maneuverability though, especially since I can't even find his quote in the PRD but rather a line that talks about the bonus without mentioning anything on it having to be natural.
Hover is exactly one flying maneuver, the rest are basically different types of turns. And unless you are going to argue hummingbirds are the strongest birds ever,fly should not be strength based.
All this about any creature that should have a solid fly skill will have one is bunk, just look at the eagle in the bestiary. +8 overall.
And what is good about an ancient dragon with clumsy flight being able to turn on a dime? I think the flight rules for dragons were quite interesting, and their turning radius and such made sense. I also quite liked that you had to have good maneuverability to hover... was it perfect that way? no, but better than it is now.
Why should the eagle have a better fly speed than that? They can't hover, and they aren't more maneuverable than other birds. So why do they need more than a +8?
Why shouldn't a huge dragon be able to hover without a feat? Why shouldn't he be able to do VTOL maneuvers? More importantly who's going to tell a dragon he can't?
Hover is exactly one flying maneuver, the rest are basically different types of turns. And unless you are going to argue hummingbirds are the strongest birds ever,fly should not be strength based.
Well, that's why you should have size bonuses. As well as you should to climb and swim, as a small fish shouldn't be worse at swimming than a large one (except in strong currents/strong winds). All the more reason to tie these skills to each other.
And flying at half speed is basically half-hovering.Anyway, I'd probably make athletics strength-based, giving a size bonus equal to that of stealth, so the str 1 hummingbird will due to her race have -5 str, +16 size, +1 rank, +3 class for a total of +15. Oh, look, she can hover :)
So how does he fail? He is magically floating in the air.
Making a Fly skill check takes no action.
No, he's magically flying in the air. Which takes skill to do.
There's nothing stopping a Wizard from dumping all (or nearly all) of his skill points in Fly at 5th level.Other than wanting to put them into USEFUL skills.
My point being, like it or not, in Pathfinder Fly is a useful skill. Not all Wizards have to take the fly spell after all. Those that do are advised to, y'know, practice flying to get good at it.
I highly doubt anyone can argue that the Fly spell is a "natural" fly speed.Who cares? You are granted Good maneuverability.
If they DON'T get the bonus for it, that is just ANOTHER argument for the Pathfinder fly skill system being god awful.
No, it's an arguement for the Fly skill system making sense. At least to those of us that believe that magic isn't perfect anyway.
I think that skill does plenty already. Balance, Tumble and Jump. Why throw even more conditional modifiers at a skill full of them?Are you HONESTLY complaining about a compound skill compounding skills?
Yup. I think the Acrobatics skill does enough. I don't think that being good at Jumping necessarily means you should be good at Balancing, or vice versa. Being good at Tumbling means you're probably better at both of those (hey, synergy). However, the classes that have Acrobatics as a class skill usually want all these things. Skill focused classes like Bards, Monks and Rogues (not entirely sure why Barbarians get it, but hey) shouldn't be penalized for being skill focused. The fact that these skills were combined is a generally good thing, even though I don't like some of the implications.
I don't think ANY of the "subskills" of Acrobatics have anything to do with flying though. Nor do I picture Clerics, Sorcerers and Wizards being particularly adept at the uneven bars or pommel horse as a matter of course. Or Dragons for that matter. So I think the Fly skill is perfectly legitimate, and I think the Fly system works very well and exactly as intended.
I agree with you on the spell granting good maneuverability though, especially since I can't even find his quote in the PRD but rather a line that talks about the bonus without mentioning anything on it having to be natural.
The part about it being natural is right in the same sentence that lists the bonuses. Here, I'll quote the whole paragraph from the Special section at the end of the Fly skill description:
Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.
Bolding mine.
I agree with you on the spell granting good maneuverability though, especially since I can't even find his quote in the PRD but rather a line that talks about the bonus without mentioning anything on it having to be natural.The part about it being natural is right in the same sentence that lists the bonuses. Here, I'll quote the whole paragraph:
Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.Bolding mine.
And I can't see that part at all. This is what my screen says:
Special (Maneuverability)
Creatures with a fly speed receive this skill for free as a class skill. They also receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:
* Clumsy –8
* Poor –4
* Average +0
* Good +4
* Perfect +8Creatures without a maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability and take no penalty on Fly checks.
And I can't see that part at all. This is what my screen says:
<snip>
d20pfsrd.com is not official, it's fan made. Looks like they missed something. Here's the official Fly skill from the PRD.
And flying at half speed is basically half-hovering.
No. No it's not.
No, he's magically flying in the air. Which takes skill to do.
Ok, describe to me how.
My point being, like it or not, in Pathfinder Fly is a useful skill.
No, it's not. It's a poor and half-assed change to an abstract system that worked just fine previously.
d20pfsrd.com is not official, it's fan made. Looks like they missed something. Here's the official Fly skill from the PRD.And I can't see that part at all. This is what my screen says:
<snip>
Your link from the official site has this quote:
"Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability."Z it is easier to quote like you did before than send someone looking for a quote. Now all Mr.String has to do is copy from here, visit you link and use the find feature in his web browser.
PS:I did submit the error to PFSRD so hopefully it will be fixed soon.
Ok, describe to me how.
No, he's magically flying in the air. Which takes skill to do.
Uhm... it's magic? Seriously, what exactly are you expecting here? Anything I say isn't supported by the rules, because the rules just say that the Fly spell grants a (supernatural) Fly Speed of 60'. Done. The fluff is up to the individual players/DMs. And it requires skill to use, otherwise you run the risk of falling to the ground.
No, it's not. It's a poor and half-assed change to an abstract system that worked just fine previously.
My point being, like it or not, in Pathfinder Fly is a useful skill.
The skill is useful because that's how the system works. It requires the Fly skill if you want to be able to Fly well. Now, whether or not you like the system doesn't impact on how useful the skill is. If you're playing by RAW (and this is the Rules forum after all), the skill is very useful.
If you dislike the system enough that you'll just be using the 3.5 version, THEN the skill is useless. I would say in fact that it should be non-existant. That of course would be a house rule however, and not applicable to the Rules forum.
Edit: for tone.
Z it is easier to quote like you did before than send someone looking for a quote. Now all Mr.String has to do is copy from here, visit you link and use the find feature in his web browser.
PS:I did submit the error to PFSRD so hopefully it will be fixed soon.
That's generally what I do, but he was claiming the rule didn't say what I was quoting, so I sent him directly to the source. I would've submitted the errata report for PFSRD too, but apparently that link is blocked at my work.
Ok, describe to me how.
No, he's magically flying in the air. Which takes skill to do.
uuuummmm. Magically? Considering there is no such thing as magical flight, you can't really make assumptions about it beyond what is in the game. Considering it is a "SKILL", it is safe to assume it takes skill to do it.
If you read up on helicopter pilots, learning to hover in place is a fairly big deal during the training process, not something taken for granted. (Not saying that is very relevant to magical flight, but it is about the only real life equivalent for humans I can think of.)
My opinion is that flying used to be way too easy, especially for some bozo with a spell. Flight should be easy for humming birds and air elementals, normal for dragons and vultures, and difficult for chimeras and first-timers in plate mail.