WE MUST KUNG-FU FIGHT! *pose*
I haz mad NO-CAN-DO skillz!
Ahh...
Protective Aura (Su) Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures
So it only 'dead zones' evil creatures, good and neutrals aren't affected.
Meaning her own detect evil isn't effected Huzzah!
Torger
That's my current interpretation.
Personally I think you'de be cutting them way too much slack, they made a challenging choice of character, and this comes with ramifications.
Whilst some might agree or disagree with the challenges Paladins have, would you apply the same option to a Paladin trying to slip past the notice of a Devil?
The sense motive check isn't going to be too difficult for the Angel when forming a 'Hunch' about a player - a DC20 unopposed check off a base skill of 22. Needs to roll a 1 to fail.
I just can't see a way out for this Cleric unless you simply apply GM Fiat to let them off the hook.
First off the Paladin better have a damn good reason for not attacking the devil on sight.
Assuming that he does and assuming that he somehow has undetectable alignment cast on him and assuming that devils have the same abilities as angels only reversed (I'm feeling too lazy to look it up) yes I would.
'course since most Paladins I've seen have a bluff skill that's basicly a charisma check I wouldn't expect it to work too well.
Honestly though I want the cleric to get caught but I think it's only fair to give her any chance that she should reasonably have and as you say the angel has a pretty kickin sense motive so even if the cleric makes the roll to know about the globe of invunerability she's by no means out of the woods.
Torger
First off the Paladin better have a damn good reason for not attacking the devil on sight.
Like you know, attempted conversion. Never easy but always worthwhile. Also if it's against the law the paladin would have difficultly simply attacking (with devils there is a good chance of this, after all they are lawful evil and really know how to work the laws over). Finally if the devil isn't currently being actively evil the paladin isn't going to let it off the hook, but has little to go on other than "he's evil! I say so!" which many people have problems with.
Assuming that he does and assuming that he somehow has undetectable alignment cast on him and assuming that devils have the same abilities as angels only reversed (I'm feeling too lazy to look it up) yes I would.
Undetectable alignment is on the paladin's spell list and lasts 24 hours. I've known many paladin players to keep it up simply so things like anti-paladin's don't use his aura as an instant radar signal to know he's there or what he is.
Honestly though I want the cleric to get caught but I think it's only fair to give her any chance that she should reasonably have and as you say the angel has a pretty kickin sense motive so even if the cleric makes the roll to know about the globe of invunerability she's by no means out of the woods.Torger
While I agree with this I would point out that simply being evil... even cleric of bad deity evil, isn't grounds for an instant attack.
First off the Paladin better have a damn good reason for not attacking the devil on sight.
Like you know, attempted conversion. Never easy but always worthwhile. Also if it's against the law the paladin would have difficultly simply attacking (with devils there is a good chance of this, after all they are lawful evil and really know how to work the laws over). Finally if the devil isn't currently being actively evil the paladin isn't going to let it off the hook, but has little to go on other than "he's evil! I say so!" which many people have problems with.
Assuming that he does and assuming that he somehow has undetectable alignment cast on him and assuming that devils have the same abilities as angels only reversed (I'm feeling too lazy to look it up) yes I would.
Undetectable alignment is on the paladin's spell list and lasts 24 hours. I've known many paladin players to keep it up simply so things like anti-paladin's don't use his aura as an instant radar signal to know he's there or what he is.
While I agree with this I would point out that simply being evil... even cleric of bad deity evil, isn't grounds for an instant attack.
Honestly though I want the cleric to get caught but I think it's only fair to give her any chance that she should reasonably have and as you say the angel has a pretty kickin sense motive so even if the cleric makes the roll to know about the globe of invunerability she's by no means out of the woods.Torger
I agree. Being a paladin does not give you a license to kill.
What it comes down to for me though is that while I find a flat out, "you don't detect as evil" to be just fine when dealing with other mere mortals I expect a little bit more out of beings of cosmic goodness.
*shrug*
And while I agree that simply DM fiat nerfing it would be cheap i think that if Angels don't have a way around this then it's just as silly as nerfing it would be cheap.
Torger
Keep in mind that part of the "problem" here is your house rule allowing the Cleric to hide the deity worshipped. By RAW, this particular disguise would not last more than a few encounters.. traveling and living with the party would risk the Cleric being "outed" over and over.. and eventually, it would be revealed. That she has not had to channel yet helps with that, of course.
However, since the angel lives in a game reality in which Clerics are allowed to mask their allegiance, it is not unreasonable for the angel to take steps around that.. such as asking directly that she show her holy symbol and declare her allegiance, or channel positive energy once to demonstrate that allegiance.
In other words, the angel should react appropriately to its intelligence regarding the rules you have changed.
First off the Paladin better have a damn good reason for not attacking the devil on sight.
Like you know, attempted conversion. Never easy but always worthwhile. Also if it's against the law the paladin would have difficultly simply attacking (with devils there is a good chance of this, after all they are lawful evil and really know how to work the laws over). Finally if the devil isn't currently being actively evil the paladin isn't going to let it off the hook, but has little to go on other than "he's evil! I say so!" which many people have problems with.
While I realise this is an often debated subject it is my opinion that Demons, Devil and Daemons are created of pure evil and are incapable of being anything else ie unredeemable. Thus they're on my incredibly short list of things that a Paladin is allowed to attack on sight. I don't know if that's RAW in the pathfinder setting or not but it is in my game world.
For anything else I agree that a Paladin should be resorting to violence only as a very last resort.
Torger
Keep in mind that part of the "problem" here is your house rule allowing the Cleric to hide the deity worshipped. By RAW, this particular disguise would not last more than a few encounters.. traveling and living with the party would risk the Cleric being "outed" over and over.. and eventually, it would be revealed. That she has not had to channel yet helps with that, of course.
However, since the angel lives in a game reality in which Clerics are allowed to mask their allegiance, it is not unreasonable for the angel to take steps around that.. such as asking directly that she show her holy symbol and declare her allegiance, or channel positive energy once to demonstrate that allegiance.
In other words, the angel should react appropriately to its intelligence regarding the rules you have changed.
Actually considering the number of clerics working in areas they aren't supposed to be in (as in: You worship who? Oh yeah sorry that's lethal here, so guess you got to die now) many clerics do hide who they worship on a regular basis -- consider cases such as the cleric of Norgorber in damn near anywhere, or a cleric of Desna in Chelaxia -- both of whom are likely to hide their worship (though probably not deny it if directly asked).
The deities in Galorian at least are not so rigid as to not understand that sometimes the light under cover is better than the light extinguished, and in the cases of evil gods could purposefully be hiding their alignment to better corrupt the unsuspecting.
good stuff...
Torger
My understanding is currently the redemption of an evil outsider is extremely difficult and arduous taking a very long time and is nigh impossible... but isn't completely impossible. Personally I got a beef against anyone that will tell me that angels can fall but devils can rise (not that you are saying such, but the Galorian setting does have fallen angels and therefore should have redeemed devils and the like too).
Keep in mind that part of the "problem" here is your house rule allowing the Cleric to hide the deity worshipped. By RAW, this particular disguise would not last more than a few encounters.. traveling and living with the party would risk the Cleric being "outed" over and over.. and eventually, it would be revealed. That she has not had to channel yet helps with that, of course.
However, since the angel lives in a game reality in which Clerics are allowed to mask their allegiance, it is not unreasonable for the angel to take steps around that.. such as asking directly that she show her holy symbol and declare her allegiance, or channel positive energy once to demonstrate that allegiance.
In other words, the angel should react appropriately to its intelligence regarding the rules you have changed.
True, I've just never liked that clerics of clever, tricky, evil gods have to visualy display an obvious symbol of their diety in order use most of their abilities. Seems lacking in subltey and if I have to work other things around that house rule then I'm comfortable with that.
I can't really see the angel asking her to display her holy symbol since physicaly there's nothing to denotre that she's a cleric. By all phsyical apearances she just looks like a girl in armor with a weapon and shield.
Torger
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My understanding is currently the redemption of an evil outsider is extremely difficult and arduous taking a very long time and is nigh impossible... but isn't completely impossible. Personally I got a beef against anyone that will tell me that angels can fall but devils can rise (not that you are saying such, but the Galorian setting does have fallen angels and therefore should have redeemed devils and the like too).good stuff...
Torger
Take heart! Risen fiends exist in the Golarion-verse according to Classic Horrors Revisited.
Considering all the numerous ways souls can be unjustly taken by the lower planes and twisted into fiends(and the number of ways this can happen only grew with Bestiary 2), there's plenty of reason to at least try to redeem those precious few that can.
(personal bias: I'd say it's possible for rare demons and devils, but not for daemons as I was led to believe that there's no soul at all within them. Bestiary 2 kind of blurred that belief though with all that Petitioner stuff, but I'm not even sure I'm going to use those elements on account of it being kind of a bummer for certain alignments all over the place)
My understanding is currently the redemption of an evil outsider is extremely difficult and arduous taking a very long time and is nigh impossible... but isn't completely impossible. Personally I got a beef against anyone that will tell me that angels can fall but devils can rise (not that you are saying such, but the Galorian setting does have fallen angels and therefore should have redeemed devils and the like too).good stuff...
Torger
'fraid I am actualy. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that good can be corupted. That's kinda evil's whole job description. I can see how the dual standard might grate on some but that's just it too me good is held to a lofty standard that has to be maintained while evil is just out and out evil.
All that being said if someone were running a cosmology where beings of evil (demons devils and whatnot) were capable of redemption and I were playing a Paladin you bet your ass he'd treat them with the same compasion, mercy and dignity he'd treat all other sentient life.
Torger
Take heart! Risen fiends exist in the Golarion-verse according to Classic Horrors Revisited.
Well fair enough then and good to know. Not my taste and won't be in any games I run but to each their own.
As with all things RPG the best part is there's no one right answer.
Torger
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My understanding is currently the redemption of an evil outsider is extremely difficult and arduous taking a very long time and is nigh impossible... but isn't completely impossible. Personally I got a beef against anyone that will tell me that angels can fall but devils can rise (not that you are saying such, but the Galorian setting does have fallen angels and therefore should have redeemed devils and the like too).good stuff...
Torger
Forgot to mention: You may want to check out Kobold Quarterly #4 for the article on Adriel, Angel of Hope. She is right up your alley, complete with examples of fiendish convertees.
And you're running Shackled City? Poor Addy. :)
Forgot to mention: You may want to check out Kobold Quarterly #4 for the article on Adriel, Angel of Hope. She is right up your alley, complete with examples of fiendish convertees.
Awesome I'll have to do that at some time. I don't necessarily expect such things to be regular of course -- but sometimes I do get annoyed by how we seem to have so much fallen good (like in one of the recent AP's where something falls in just a few centuries or less at a mortal's hands of all things with a very simple and... in my opinion just stupid method) but never see much of the rise to nobility unless forced (and I do mean forced) by PCs. Not that I mind the PCs doing such work (especially if they are heroes) but occasionally it is nice to see some rays of hope without it being centered on the PCs completely. After all if the PC "heroes" are the "only hope" how in the heck did the world and "team good" manage to do anything worthwhile ever?
Take heart! Risen fiends exist in the Golarion-verse according to Classic Horrors Revisited.
Well fair enough then and good to know. Not my taste and won't be in any games I run but to each their own.
As with all things RPG the best part is there's no one right answer.
Torger
Agreement on this part of course. :D
Forgot to mention: You may want to check out Kobold Quarterly #4 for the article on Adriel, Angel of Hope. She is right up your alley, complete with examples of fiendish convertees.Awesome I'll have to do that at some time. I don't necessarily expect such things to be regular of course -- but sometimes I do get annoyed by how we seem to have so much fallen good (like in one of the recent AP's where something falls in just a few centuries or less at a mortal's hands of all things with a very simple and... in my opinion just stupid method) but never see much of the rise to nobility unless forced (and I do mean forced) by PCs. Not that I mind the PCs doing such work (especially if they are heroes) but occasionally it is nice to see some rays of hope without it being centered on the PCs completely. After all if the PC "heroes" are the "only hope" how in the heck did the world and "team good" manage to do anything worthwhile ever?
Maybe every NPC that did anything was really a PC. :)
Seriously:
Really I think it is because the game assumes certain things are handled by PC's so we the players have things to do. I am sure many of the spells were invented by PC's. We just don't have stories about it because it won't sell as well as anything that is not DM/PC related or can be in some way.
Example:I looked at Elminster's, and other powerful NPC stats in 3.5, but I never used the guy. There were areas(people/places/thing/etc) in Eberron that were left open to interpretation on purpose, and I have always tried to use one I had not used before
Example:I looked at Elminster's, and other powerful NPC stats in 3.5, but I never used the guy. There were areas(people/places/thing/etc) in Eberron that were left open to interpretation on purpose, and I have always tried to use one I had not used before
Well I'm not expecting a sudden rush of level 20's doing miracles all the time or anything -- but maybe a single imp alchemist that is redeemed in an AP that helps out the PC's would be nice.
Actually I could really see a lowly redeemed imp alchemist with the idea of "transmuting the base to the gold" approach going on. The idea of raising himself out of his "base form" of evil on his question for a "cosmic" philosopher's stone is rather appealing, would be an easy concept to get across in few words and be a great example of Paizo's ability to break the mold with their APs and offer simple but solid ideas that are easy to use by a GM.
I think it well reflects the notion that to do the right thing all the time is a struggle and often quite inconvenient, whereas its dead easy to be a complete douche.
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Reminded of one thing I wish I hadn't missed out on when a friend decided to run Kingmaker instead of Council of Thieves.
Council of Thieves SPOILER
The whole bit with the living Erinyes head just seemed like a hook for redemption-focused PCs. If I was a player in that AP I definitely know I'd have latched onto it. Kind of curious how many groups went that route.
Reminded of one thing I wish I hadn't missed out on when a friend decided to run Kingmaker instead of Council of Thieves.
Council of Thieves SPOILER
** spoiler omitted **
I was a teifling druid and my goal was to improve the general perception of teiflings. I tried to get a certain bad guy to change their outlook on life(in the middle of a fight), but to no avail.
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I was a teifling druid and my goal was to improve the general perception of teiflings. I tried to get a certain bad guy to change their outlook on life(in the middle of a fight), but to no avail.Reminded of one thing I wish I hadn't missed out on when a friend decided to run Kingmaker instead of Council of Thieves.
Council of Thieves SPOILER
** spoiler omitted **
Condolences. Here's hoping your GM let some of your attempts at such things succeed at least. :)
story hour
Morale of story: Good isn't the only redemption available.
That's magic. It's also very narrowly defined.
Remember, it does nothing against Sense Motive.
It also becomes suspended in an anti-magic field or dead magic zone.
If the angel is not summoned he or she can still use special abilities not spell like.Examines "Goth Guru" with a scanner of detect alignment...
humm, i detect no alignment. That strange, ... Ah he must have a Undetectable Alignment spell on.
...wonder what he is hiding :D
well fortunatly that is not how detect evil work, it "scanns" for evil only...and will only give a "readout" if there is evil to be detected... if you want the other effect you have to cast detect evil, good, chaos and law...and even then the subjekt could still be True neutral
This is the homebrew section, so you could convert over Detect Alignment(or Aura sight). It would probably be 3rd level and give the full alignment. If blocked, the spell will fail, then you should be suspicious. My aura would be a watery grey. Neutral, and suppressed by medication.