God help me. i have 3 paladins in the group I am currently running. The setting is custom and we have just moved to Pathfinder from 3.5 and using only the Core book. We are trying to stick to the rules as written to get a solid feel for the game before we implement many of our old House rules and such. Only exception os the monster the party faces. I tend to create many of my own.
So, let the Paladin questions begin....
Would a devil get their SR vs. a Paladin's Holy Smite ability?
Second question, I have never been really clear on the types of actions either from 3.5 and then carrying into Pathfinder. It is more confusing to me now with the Paladin's "super natural abilities".
Could a Paladin take a 5' step, Smite (super nautural action) and take a full round attack? How about 5' step, Lay on hands/Self and a full round attack? How is this effected by moving more than 5'?
Quick Ranger "Favored Enemy" question. If a Ranger does not have a Wisdom bonus would they sill be able to 'share' their favored enemy bonus in the specified radius for 1 round? Not real clear on that.
Thanks for the quick responses. It really helps to clarify the action situation.
Any suggestion on how to pose a threat to a party with 3 paladins =)
It's pretty scary for the GM. Pile a priest on top of that and they are hard to really damage if they pay attention. However, they do not have a Wizard so I still have a chance.
It does not help that the current iteration of the "world" they are in is heavy on Undead and Demons/Devils. Talk about a Paladin's sweet spot.
Such a group will heavily demolish any encounter consisting of evil outsiders, undead and evil dragons.
If you plan to use these, simply up the CR by one or two.
While this group is tough, it is not very flexible. Elusive foes (able to fly, being invisible, seeing in the dark...) can pose a severe threat as can swarm like creatures or oozes.
Also non evil creatures (human revolutionaries, tribal warriors, animals) will take a good chunk out of this group.
Finally all encounters that sport strong support BBEG that hide behind a mass of minions are gonna give this group hell.
Additionally, a goblin hunting party with bows from the trees. I assume your party paladins probably went melee so this could prove fun to see them try to scramble up a tree or cut it down.
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Second question, I have never been really clear on the types of actions either from 3.5 and then carrying into Pathfinder. It is more confusing to me now with the Paladin's "super natural abilities".
A supernatural ability requires a standard action unless the ability itself says otherwise. The action type for both lay-on-hands and smite are described in the text of the ability. Smite is a swift action. Lay-on-hands is a swift ability if used on self, but a standard action to use on another
Could a Paladin take a 5' step, Smite (super nautural action) and take a full round attack? How about 5' step, Lay on hands/Self and a full round attack? How is this effected by moving more than 5'?
If taking only a 5' step, he can do either of these as described. If moving more than 5', he has used a move aciton to move and cannot also take a full round action. He would be limited to attacking with a standard action (1 attack) instead of a full round attack. The swift action smithe or lay-on-hands/self are unaffected and are good to go.
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I'm getting the sense from your questions that you aren't solid on what actions can be taken in what combinations in a round. I strongly suggest you review the rules section, work up a diagram of your own for understanding, and imagine some typical combinations that might come up.
Good Gaming!
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Thanks for the quick responses. It really helps to clarify the action situation.
Any suggestion on how to pose a threat to a party with 3 paladins =)
It's pretty scary for the GM. Pile a priest on top of that and they are hard to really damage if they pay attention. However, they do not have a Wizard so I still have a chance.
It does not help that the current iteration of the "world" they are in is heavy on Undead and Demons/Devils. Talk about a Paladin's sweet spot.
Note that the latest Paizo errata has altered Smite Evil to be less 'OMG it's a fiend let's... jeezus it's dead already'.
Page 60—In the Smite Evil paladin class feature, change the fourth sentence of the first paragraph to read as follows:
If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses.
So they can no longer two-hand power-attack full-attack with a +40-something to damage every strike against a fiend/undead/etc.
Thanks for the quick responses. It really helps to clarify the action situation.
Any suggestion on how to pose a threat to a party with 3 paladins =)
It's pretty scary for the GM. Pile a priest on top of that and they are hard to really damage if they pay attention. However, they do not have a Wizard so I still have a chance.
It does not help that the current iteration of the "world" they are in is heavy on Undead and Demons/Devils. Talk about a Paladin's sweet spot.
Don't fight them head on. Use terrain to slow them down. Use a lot of enemies. They don't have enough smites to smite everything. Don't ever let there be a direct unobstructed path from the paladin to the boss guy. Make them work to get there. If none of them have ranged weapon, which is silly but I see it too often, take advantage of that. Use neutral enemies. Sometimes use good enemies. Make it so that the paladins and the other good guys have an opposing mission or viewpoints on how to get a problem solved. Swords can't solve all problems(Use social challenges).
Devils are normally smart enough to not be in the forefront of their schemes. They normally manipulate things through some mortal. Normally you don't even they are involved until it is too late. The intelligent undead can be great manipulators also. The other ones are just labor/troops.
Things like tripping, disarming, and grappling are also valid tactics.
When you run a session or two come back and let us know what happened. It will be easier after that to help you out. Have fun.
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First suggestion from my experience doing the same thing: Read up on Detect Evil - there were subtle changes from 3.5 which are important (especially at low levels). Read and re-read those abilities. You need to know them forwards and backwards, because the differences are very small but have large ramifications.
If the area is heavy Undead and Demons/Devils, that would mean to be that there is a concentration of powerful members of those three types of creatures. All of those should be VERY interested in a group with *one* paladin, let alone *three* godly champions. I would be putting down layer over layer of influences and big-league-players trying to either trip them up, set them up to loose their paladin-hood, or kill them outright.
My favorite way to do this is based on a term in chess called a Fork. Basically you provide situations where hard decisions are to be made. Skeletons are easy prey... but skeletons with children trapped in their rib cages? Batter the morals of those characters and let them prove they deserve the title of Paladin. Also be willing to strip those powers if appropriate! It has to have teeth if it's going to mean anything. I don't mean "you jay-walked! Your powers are gone!" of course, but it's a very strict code of Lawfulness and Good that need to be obeyed to have their powers.
I can't imagine any major Demon or Devil on the material plane wouldn't see a band of three paladins as a direct threat to them at any given time. These creatures, specifically Devils, play the ultra-long game and winning the soul of a Paladin is one of the highest prizes in their wicked game.
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Thanks for the quick responses. It really helps to clarify the action situation.
Any suggestion on how to pose a threat to a party with 3 paladins =)
It's pretty scary for the GM. Pile a priest on top of that and they are hard to really damage if they pay attention. However, they do not have a Wizard so I still have a chance.
It does not help that the current iteration of the "world" they are in is heavy on Undead and Demons/Devils. Talk about a Paladin's sweet spot.
Note that the latest Paizo errata has altered Smite Evil to be less 'OMG it's a fiend let's... jeezus it's dead already'.
So they can no longer two-hand power-attack full-attack with a +40-something to damage every strike against a fiend/undead/etc.Page 60—In the Smite Evil paladin class feature, change the fourth sentence of the first paragraph to read as follows:
If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses.
Still good to go with the paladin + 10 ranged followers + AoJ. But that does help with the single smite.
First suggestion from my experience doing the same thing: Read up on Detect Evil - there were subtle changes from 3.5 which are important (especially at low levels). Read and re-read those abilities. You need to know them forwards and backwards, because the differences are very small but have large ramifications.
If the area is heavy Undead and Demons/Devils, that would mean to be that there is a concentration of powerful members of those three types of creatures. All of those should be VERY interested in a group with *one* paladin, let alone *three* godly champions. I would be putting down layer over layer of influences and big-league-players trying to either trip them up, set them up to loose their paladin-hood, or kill them outright.
My favorite way to do this is based on a term in chess called a Fork. Basically you provide situations where hard decisions are to be made. Skeletons are easy prey... but skeletons with children trapped in their rib cages? Batter the morals of those characters and let them prove they deserve the title of Paladin. Also be willing to strip those powers if appropriate! It has to have teeth if it's going to mean anything. I don't mean "you jay-walked! Your powers are gone!" of course, but it's a very strict code of Lawfulness and Good that need to be obeyed to have their powers.
I can't imagine any major Demon or Devil on the material plane wouldn't see a band of three paladins as a direct threat to them at any given time. These creatures, specifically Devils, play the ultra-long game and winning the soul of a Paladin is one of the highest prizes in their wicked game.
Phylactery of FaithfulnessAura faint divination; CL 1st
Slot headband; Price 1,000 gp; Weight —
Description
This item is a tiny box containing religious scripture. The box is affixed to a leather cord and tied around the forehead, worn so that the box sits upon the wearer's brow. There is no mundane way to determine what function this religious item performs until it is worn. The wearer of a phylactery of faithfulness is aware of any action or item that could adversely affect his alignment and his standing with his deity, including magical effects. He acquires this information prior to performing such an action or becoming associated with such an item if he takes a moment to contemplate the act.
This item is something all paladins should have. Making players guess at what the DM thinks is right is not fun though. Putting a player in a situation where he has to do evil is fun though. The cleric will just take care of it with an atonement spell so it might not even be an issue for this party, especially if they bring the girls back to life or pay for the raise dead out of their own pockets.
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...Making players guess at what the DM thinks is right is not fun though...
I would agree with this sentiment. It has to be an open conversation with the players in question prior to the game and in-between games. Trust between them is essential - the players have to trust the GM to not screw them over on things for no good reason, and the GM has to trust them to play the challenges fairly.
Unless the act is cataclysmic-ally evil / unaligned, then there definitely should be warning. It's not an on/off switch so much as a dimmer in my opinion; my point is that it shouldn't be an always on switch, either. If the possibility of loosing those powers for good isn't real, then you're not risking anything in doing questionable things.
The description of Paladin has "In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline." Not "mostly keep with their laws", not "when it's convenient, except on Tuesdays". We're talking absolutes.
As the GM, you should always be fair in all things. In the end, however, the GM is the representative of those deities and the final say on what they think of what the character is doing. If the player isn't interested in playing by the rules of the GM at the table, then my suggestion is that there are over a dozen other classes that are awesome as well or find a new GM to play your Paladin under that sees eye-to-eye with you.
Thanks for all the responses.
I am not really struggling as much as it may sound with the group. It was as much a retorical question as anything. If I struggle with anything it is a bit with the rules from time to time. I just believe that everything since 2nd edition leads to more complexity in areas it was not needed. Color me old fashioned I guess.
I've been running games in my world for going on 20 years now. My group had played a prior campaign in my "world" and although the world is a living, changing place they had a decent idea of some of the challenges they would be facing. It's a bad place. Once upon a time ago a VERY powerful person had something terrible happen and his god refused to help him. It just happens this god was also a party member of this wizard before being forced to ascend. When his god refused to help him the wizard "wished" his god mortal so he could kill him. (actual events from a campaign)
This resulted in "The cracking of the World" also known as the "Oops" by those players involved. Death, destruction and meyham have followed every since.
That's part of the reason we have three paladins in the group. My players thought playing paladins would be "stright forward" but are finding that is very much not the case. There are just so many shades of grey in the world that they are often a bit unsure of themselves and their direction.
"It's evil... KILL IT" can work in alot of situations but it can be pretty short sighted, especially when they group often will struggle trying to decide exactly what "evil" means =)
They are starting to get to a level where they are really "missing" that Wizard/Sorc. Lots of "We sure could use haste" whining not to mention lack of AE damage. Music to my ears.
I keep a message board with each character keeping their own journal. You could read it here if you are interested: http://scrogz.proboards.com/index.cgi
Everyone gets a HUGE kick out of reading character's perception of what is happening. These entries are always written from the character perspective.
Thanks for all the responses.
I am not really struggling as much as it may sound with the group. It was as much a retorical question as anything. If I struggle with anything it is a bit with the rules from time to time. I just believe that everything since 2nd edition leads to more complexity in areas it was not needed. Color me old fashioned I guess.
I've been running games in my world for going on 20 years now. My group had played a prior campaign in my "world" and although the world is a living, changing place they had a decent idea of some of the challenges they would be facing. It's a bad place. Once upon a time ago a VERY powerful person had something terrible happen and his god refused to help him. It just happens this god was also a party member of this wizard before being forced to ascend. When his god refused to help him the wizard "wished" his god mortal so he could kill him. (actual events from a campaign)
This resulted in "The cracking of the World" also known as the "Oops" by those players involved. Death, destruction and meyham have followed every since.
That's part of the reason we have three paladins in the group. My players thought playing paladins would be "stright forward" but are finding that is very much not the case. There are just so many shades of grey in the world that they are often a bit unsure of themselves and their direction.
"It's evil... KILL IT" can work in alot of situations but it can be pretty short sighted, especially when they group often will struggle trying to decide exactly what "evil" means =)
They are starting to get to a level where they are really "missing" that Wizard/Sorc. Lots of "We sure could use haste" whining not to mention lack of AE damage. Music to my ears.
I keep a message board with each character keeping their own journal. You could read it here if you are interested: http://scrogz.proboards.com/index.cgi
Everyone gets a HUGE kick out of reading character's perception of what is happening. These entries are...
I think that sometimes being a paladin means having to commit the lesser of two evils, and though you will still be punished, as long as you atone your deity should not hold it against you. That does not mean a player should pick the easiest path. It just means he should be prepared to make the hard decision.
As a DM I would try to not make a paladin lose his powers for too long, which varies by group of course.|
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Still good to go with the paladin + 10 ranged followers + AoJ. But that does help with the single smite.
Note that the latest Paizo errata has altered Smite Evil to be less 'OMG it's a fiend let's... jeezus it's dead already'.
So they can no longer two-hand power-attack full-attack with a +40-something to damage every strike against a fiend/undead/etc.Page 60—In the Smite Evil paladin class feature, change the fourth sentence of the first paragraph to read as follows:
If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses.
True, but it's slightly better than the celestial wood chipper that Smite Evil used to be. When your minimum damage is like 50-60/hit on every swing of a full attack DR 10 or even DR 15 gets rapidly overwhelmed (not that it makes much difference anyway, since most of the foes pally's get double damage on are DR X/Good).
Edit - Oh yeah, and "Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess" anyway. Herp derp on me.
Not really. I have been working, off and on, at putting together a Web Page but I simply have too much stuff to get it all up there. Really, I just don't have the time as much as anything.
I wish I still had the forums for my last game, which was a Hackmaster game. The journals in that game were laugh out loud funny.
Is there anything you wanted to know in particular? Like most gamers I like to talk about things I have help create =)
It's a bit of a unique setting in that most everything that has and is happening was brought about by players. I started running games in this world back in 1987 (yeah I am old) in college and there have been about 11 or so campaigns that have taken place, each one affecting the world to some extent, since I started running. The world has survived through 1st edition, 2nd edition, 3.0, Hackmaster, 3.5 and now Pathfinder.
Things of note:
There is currently only one "good" gawd and one "evil" gawd. In the last campaign the players discovered the evil gawd had actually removed the "good" gawd and taken his place so, in effect, everyone was worshipping him. That campaign focused around bringing the good gawd back. When they finally did "free" the good gawd it caused all kinds of interesting things. Things like a Paladin Lay on Hands was no longer just a damage ability but could also heal (evil gawd never figured out to how to let that ability heal) and clerics could not default to healing spells (had to memorize them when getting power from the evil "gawd".
In my current campaign the players has pretty diverse goals, just as I like it. They are generally headed in the right direction. I ama firm believer in giving the players a number of choices and letting them drive the game. It's the best GM advice I have ever received, thank you Ed Greenwood.
I should also say that if you wanted other specifics and did not want to post you can always e-mail me a bitter.skip@gmail.com
Happy to discuss gaming.