That was the closest corner of the `square` he specifically mentioned, and throwing it further would give him a longer scatter range if he missed, i.e. more risky... Lethe also wasn`t in that location when he thrown. I don`t know what else to say... Deiros didn`t object to that placement when he posted right after the intersection was clarified... nor has it been mentiond until now. I thought I was speeding up game-play (after I had explained how intersection targetting works 4 times previously, helping him strip an image or take the safest option per his choice) ... /shrug
...I wasn`t sure what the final ruling was for the Smoke Bomb...
I maybe I was confusing what we decided here with where I posted it for a Rules Question.
Anyways, Miss Chance was rolled either way, so the game isn`t slowed down.
That was the closest corner of the `square` he specifically mentioned, and throwing it further would give him a longer scatter range if he missed, i.e. more risky... Lethe also wasn`t in that location when he thrown. I don`t know what else to say... Deiros didn`t object to that placement when he posted right after the intersection was clarified... nor has it been mentiond until now. I thought I was speeding up game-play (after I had explained how intersection targetting works 4 times previously, helping him strip an image or take the safest option per his choice) ... /shrug
...I wasn`t sure what the final ruling was for the Smoke Bomb...
I maybe I was confusing what we decided here with where I posted it for a Rules Question.
Anyways, Miss Chance was rolled either way, so the game isn`t slowed down.
Instead of making a decision for him that hurts a member of his team, just ask him to specify an intersection.
I don't think we were really worried about the bomb placement. At this point I'm just worried that changing it might cause too much confusion but as I think it only really affects me, it should be fine (I'm really not going to complain...).
Quandary, the Fly spell specifically says that ascending costs double and descending only costs half. Lobo's movement is fine since he isn't relying on the fly spell but Garinol is and so his movement is more limited.
Rallick is correct about the fly spell. I did not know that myself. I guess that is my new learned rule for the week.
No that`s fine, I don`t know if you mentioned it before,
but this is a pretty good forum to draw out these wonky rules issues.Yes, I would probably apply Soft Cover if attacking the back square of a creature IF I wasn`t taller and so had unobstructed Line of Effect to their rear quarters. :-)
Re: moving half-speed when Flying upward, the relevant passage is:
¨(without making check, a flying creature) can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees¨
*I* took that to mean the 1/2 movement applies to 45* or higher... Since if you don`t read it that way then there is absolutely nothing suggest pure vertical flight takes a 1/2 speed penalty, which makes less sense than <45* flight NOT having a move-speed penalty, IMHO. Note that you technically COULD count any single-square diagonal movement as 45* movement, but I don`t think that is RAI, since that means basically ANY non-straight-line Flight counts as 45* turns (or worse) which is silly... Clearly there should be a provision for 0*-45* movement. Whichever way one thinks the RAI leans toward, it seems pretty clear the RAW is defective here... :-/Honestly, the reason I moved there in the first place was based on thinking the Collision Fly Check when using Natural Wings applied to ALL Flight including Magical (it doesn`t specify in the Italic sub-section title), which I realized isn`t valid so that didn`t happen... But if he can get there, I guess WHY NOT?, he`s not doing anything better... He has his weapon drawn for AoO purposes, although you can pretty cleary easily evade that - UNLESS... he has Disruptive and Step Up! Mua-ha-ha-ha... ;-)
If Wraith wants, feel free to move him back a few squares or something, I don`t think it matters one way or an other.
I'm fairly certain you aren't able to make AoO's while neaseated so I'm not too worried about Garinol's feat choices.
Also, I'm fairly certain large(long) creatures still take up a 10ft cube. I mean all the lion needs to do is rear up a bit and you lose clear line of effect to it's back half. Just my thoughts...
Wow, I was under the impression that Paizo was unifying their rules, Fly spell working just like the Skill with a bonus, etc, but then these differences crop up. I will add that to a couple of issues for Errata that I´ve noticed just from this game. Wierd how these Player vs. Player games can really un-cover those types of issues.
Garinol also wasn´t relying on Fly, rather his Bloodline Ability, but I don´t think at this point it matters much. Besides my misunderstanding about what he could do (why I originally flew there), I also thought he could take AoOs while Nauseated, but checking the wording I see he can´t...
------------------------------------------------------
About the Concealment within Fog thing, which apparently affects whether Hyundai can be targetted by Rallick´s spell, amongst other things:
Fog Cloud (which is the basis for this) says:
There isn´t any special case for edge squares vs. sources/targets outside the effect. So per my reading of RAW, there is Full Concealment between someobody in the cloud and anybody NOT adjacent, even if outside, edge squares or not. I¨m saying this completely understanding how one can imagine it working differently, but I don´t think it´s against imaginability to say the smoke (including edge squares) provides FulL Concealment unless you´re adjacent, it´s a slightly different imaginatino. I had described Hyundai´s Concealmeant/visibility to others outside the smoke like this (with Full Concealment) earlier in the game.
Anyhow, however Wraith wants to rule this is fine with me....
Note that if we were going with precedent that spells with radius only (or do not say Cylinder) are Spherical,
the upper part of Hyundai isn´t Concealed (at all) anyways (except to those also in the Cloud).
OK, I realized with the original bomb placement that nobody in the game had a problem with,
that Hyundai IS completely within the Fog Cloud, and is not in an edge square, so however we want to rule on edge-square concealment and AoE type, he has Full Concealment vs. Rallick... So Rallick probably will want to update his action to reflect that.
BTW, I thought I might as well mention, it was really irritating how Torinath just ´stepped back into the game´ to change the map for the smoke cloud, without even just mentioning it for discussion first... Of course, a whole round had gone by with people´s actions (including Hyundai´s movement, not to mention miss chance rolls) affected by the smoke placement. Curious how he didn´t suggest ´the optimal strategy´ with the whole pre-buff confusion, e.g. which spells would have been cast vs. which was planned for 1st round.
Yes I noticed the change in the cloud and I have updates my profile for the current expenditure of ki, poison charges and rounds left in my invisibility.
Awesome Deiros, that pissed me off that when I was forced to ´play´ Garinol and Lobo Gris, that neither had updated their character profiles at all, even with HP damage they had taken from the Tentacles.
Hmmm, ok well I am gonna wait for a little bit to update my actions. Give wraith time to weigh in on everything.
If we do go with the original placement of the smoke bomb, do I then use the saves I had rolled for the lion earlier? It will also mean that the lion would have had full concealment vs your attack IIRC.
On the main issue at hand, I don't agree with Torinath's choice to change the area without really consulting anyone first. At the same time I can see where he is coming from. By choosing a location for Deverau I think it's fairly easy to see how someone could view it as stepping on our team's toes. I totally sympathize with the desire to keep things moving but it would have probably been best to simply point out the lack of clarification and let someone on our team pick a specific intersection.
Personally, I would like to avoid getting bogged down with this and so I think we should just stick with things as they are now, I had already rolled the lion's saves and will change my personal actions as soon as we come to an official decision.
OK, I realized with the original bomb placement that nobody in the game had a problem with,
that Hyundai IS completely within the Fog Cloud, and is not in an edge square, so however we want to rule on edge-square concealment and AoE type, he has Full Concealment vs. Rallick... So Rallick probably will want to update his action to reflect that.BTW, I thought I might as well mention, it was really irritating how Torinath just ´stepped back into the game´ to change the map for the smoke cloud, without even just mentioning it for discussion first... Of course, a whole round had gone by with people´s actions (including Hyundai´s movement, not to mention miss chance rolls) affected by the smoke placement. Curious how he didn´t suggest ´the optimal strategy´ with the whole pre-buff confusion, e.g. which spells would have been cast vs. which was planned for 1st round.
I will apologize for butting in. But I was annoyed at your action as I veiwed it as unsportsmanlike and dishonest.
Regardless, I am sorry I interfered.
I know I did not specifically mention updating your profiles, but I did mention that if you were gone for an certain length of time that a team member could run your character. In order for that to happen we must keep your characters updated, and if I had seen the smoke moved after the fact I would have moved it back.
New Ruling 1: If an affect forces someone to roll it is pretty stuck there from that point on.
New Ruling 2: If you declare yourself out of the game then your team owns your characters. Once you declare yourself back into the game then you get to control the character's actions after the declaration
With that said I understand that rolls have been made according to both cloud positions. Whichever position has forced the most rolls should be where the could is placed for this particular instance unless the majority of you agree to keep it where it is.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand a ruling is need for concealment for with respect to clouds.
Ruling:Quandry is correct with regards to the concealment affect of the cloud spells.
As for the radius spells I always understood them to be a sphere. If you have been playing otherwise I think it is better to keep it going that way than to suddenly change the rules though.
I apologize for the confusion I caused, I hope the next bout will be less confusing and I look forward to participating in it. I still have a lot of concepts I still would like to try out. Latrine worked well, until I made a couple of stupic mistakes, but that's how these things go :).
First time playing a witch, and I can see how they make very strong battlefield control characters.
OK. I already rolled for Concealment vs. Lion, and beat Full Concealment, so no problem there.
I don´t think anything else has been affected besides Rallick´s turn, which it looks like he´s just held off on ´updating´
(i.e. based on original cloud position) until he heard from Wraithsrike, who seems to have answered all the issues.
If it wasn´t clear, frustration probably played a good part in my choice to ´resolve´ Deverau´s action... I mean, obviously, for the exact same action previously I just posted his actual legal options, giving a mini combat-tutorial, but just having the same exact problem crop up several times afterwards was beyond my patience. Since I think the Lion only hits Hyundai on a Nat. 20, I don´t really think it affects that much (except actions posted between map changes, which now are again in conformance with the map). Anyways, it looks like we´re good to go from here...
If we do go with the original placement of the smoke bomb, do I then use the saves I had rolled for the lion earlier? It will also mean that the lion would have had full concealment vs your attack IIRC.
Yes, the Saves were based on the original placement, Torinath changed the map after everybody acted except Deverath and Rallick. As I wrote above, Hyundai already passed (Blind Fight) Miss Chance for FULL Concealment (which applies even thru 1 square, i.e. edge squares, contra what Torinath and others thought earlier)
Alright, looks like we are all set now. As far as I can determine, all saves and actions are now up to date and accurate with our chosen course of events. I hope we can all put any hard feelings behind us and move on from here.
Wraithstrike, the radius spell in question is the ninja's smoke cloud that you yourself had already ruled to be 15' high throughout it's entire area.
EDIT : Is it a poor choice to attempt to soothe tempers with post #666? :P
Alright, looks like we are all set now. As far as I can determine, all saves and actions are now up to date and accurate with our chosen course of events. I hope we can all put any hard feelings behind us and move on from here.
Wraithstrike, the radius spell in question is the ninja's smoke cloud that you yourself had already ruled to be 15' high throughout it's entire area.
EDIT : Is it a poor choice to attempt to soothe tempers with post #666? :P
In that case my previous ruling stands on the 15' smoke bomb cloud stands.
I have only seen the low roll = miss system being used. It's what I have been going by since we started, where did we accidentally switch it?
You should stay around, I think this round is nearly over and then we can put some real effort into establishing all of the rules before we begin the next round. There have been a lot of issues raised this round but I think we will be able to learn from them.
In short, it will get better!
Is it something other than the rules confusion issues bothering you? Maybe we can help make this more fun?
Well I can kind of see how it maybe hasn't been as interesting for him...
I mean, for an outsider, the battle has certainly been ridiculous so far,
but for him personally I can see how it's pretty much boring...
most of my team was taken out of the battle before he acted by the cloud+tentacles, some escape but don't really do much to change things, everybody else was mostly focusing on Hyundai, but as far as melee that was basically just stripping his defensive layers, except Deiros who finished off Kaze... but not much interesting from Lethe's perspective, i.e. she never really has any DIFFERENT meaningful options to take, and she hasn't caused any 'impressive' effect yet, or even SUFFERED an impressive effect.
I think if most of my team hadn't been taken out of the fight the first round, and/or effectively so like Bryan was, there would be alot more mix-up in the fight that Lethe could [interestingly] interact with. Maybe that's something to consider in arena design for future rounds, since AoE targetting of starting areas can just drastically affect the rest of the game.
|
Quandary has the basics of it. Part of it is also simply that playing a melee fighter in an otherwise all magic user arena is not a very good choice.
On a side note I'm really not seeing the point of is letting people who play alighments not neutral are getting extra build points. I dont think a single alighment based spell or affect has been thrown around this entire battle. I believe the intention was to not give neutral characters an advantage but when everyone is a spell caster so have a choice of dozens of spells many of which can basically do what the alighment specific spells can do seems to be a needless handicap for neutral characters.
During the first two battles, I tried to make it so that the starting location can't be targeted. The next round that I DM (which will not have 10 players!) may see something along the lines of random roll-based initial placement.
I think the point of the original alignment based idea was to get people to be something other than neutral since certain spells only go affect certain alignments. It was basically an RP incentive in an otherwise combat game, but if nobody is going to take spells or abilities(smite for example) that target alignment X then it really is not doing much good.
I guess we could say smite targets whoever you want so the paladin does not feel left out.
The only other option I can think of is to consider that the pally and other alignment based variables are not suitable for arena combat.
yeah, I was worried about starting placement as we were getting prepared for this round. No one else seemed to be concerned when I asked about attacking the starting positions though and it just seemed like bad tactics not to take advantage of the situation.
I think random starting positions are an excellent idea for any later rounds. Or at least each team should start slightly more spread out...
As far as the alignment issue goes, I think it could work to simply allow things like smite to work on everyone. That being said I'm not sure we really need to change anything as most of us actually went for the extra points and it seems like coincidence that no one played an alignment specific character. A paladin on the opposing team could have wreaked havoc with me and my teammates.
By the same token, anyone who took options to protect against archers wasted their time since the only ranged attacks I have seen all fight were a couple thrown smoke bombs. Do we now consider either banning effects that protect against ranged attacks or ruling that archers aren't suited to arena combat either? :P
I think the alignment incentives are still a good idea and we will see that as soon as someone decides to take advantage of it. Just my 2cp.
I had issues staying online, but everything should be ok now. Has anything popped that I might have missed? I did not see anything, but I wanted to check to make sure.
Quandary, it functions as fog cloud. Meaning it emanates from the intersection, it is not like Flamestrike. If you have anymore questions the ruling and it's supporting analysis is here: Smoke Bomb Ruling
The bomb counts as a confusion effect so I assumed she would get the Half-elf's + 2 save against enchantment to it (far as I recall the bonus to enchantment just says save and does not specify will saves.)
You're right, it doesn't specify a save type but enchantments are by definition spell like effects. The spell Confusion is an enchantment but the condition confusion isn't tied to being an enchantment. The confusion effect here comes from a poison. Only poison resistance or immunity would affect the save.
That being said I think we have all been doing the poison effect incorrectly. I think we have forgotten the wisdom damage that comes with the confusion(or at least I had), and since it's a poison anyone who has failed at some point should be making continuous saves for the next 6 rounds or until they pass 2 of them.
I haven't noticed anyone using the poison DC increase from prolonged exposure, either. So if you failed once and were still in the cloud your next save would be at a DC +2. If I am remembering right.
You have to be inflicted with the poison again. I don't think extended exposure to a poison cloud counts as several exposures. In that case cloud kill which is a poison would be a lot more dangerous.
Edit:This is my current ruling. I can post it to the rules forum if you like.
I wasn't calling for a ruling. I was just trying to contribute to the possible poison oversights discussion. :)
I agree that Save Bonuses vs. Enchantmens don`t apply...
Enchantment is a School of Magic, which isn`t in play with the Smoke Bomb effect, even if the poison has an effect similar to what an Enchantment spell does. If there was a Supernatural effect that worked like an Enchantment spell, that would probably still count as Enchantment, but Poison? No. There probably is a magical Enchantment smoke (which would say so), but this isn´t it.
I`m pretty sure there isn`t any subsequent +2 DC, since that only happens from multiple dosages of Afflictions.
The thing here is that Poison Fog isn`t actually statted out like an AFFLICTION Poison, even though any bonus vs. Poisons would apply to both. Unfortunately the Poison section is written assuming that all Poisons are afflictions... But it`s pretty clear that the Magical Poisonous Smoke in this case isn`t an affliction, because it doesn`t have Onset, Frequency, and Cure Conditions like Affliction Poisons have. If somebody wants to, I encourage posting this to the rules questions/errata thread... The rules could be clearer that not all `Poisions` necessarily use the Affliction rules, although most do.
...So I take it that the Save Bonus Rallick used IS correct?
@Lethe: If you have any info on specific modifiers being used incorrectly that`s relevant, but you took so long that Rallick had to take your turn for you... So you can`t really come back and propose a different course of actions, or re-roll the same saves, etc... I mean, if he did something patently impossible, amending it is reasonable (changing his actions the least possible, i.e. retaining everything that is legal), but I don`t see ANY reason for you to re-roll the 2ndary attack or the Saving Throw - you aren`t even doing different actions in those cases. If an incorrect modifier was used, that can be noted/updated, just like if somebody forgot a Flanking bonus or the Power Attack penalty, etc.
EDIT: For a sec, I thought Lethe COULD do a Knockdown, when I was misreading it as Knockback (which is what I`m more familiar with), but Knockdown (APG) has a 1/rage limitation while Knockback has a 1/round limitation. Damn Paizo, mixing up all the details like that so you don`t notice...
|
|
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before so I apologize if it has but since the poison cloud is based of an actual poison and Lethe has already made several Poison saves in a row (2-3 at least not including the current turn) Would that not count as the amount needed for consecutive saves? or does it being in a cloud mean that it works differently?
Unlike other afflictions, multiple doses of the same poison stack. Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time, but inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once. Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative. Multiple doses do not alter the cure conditions of the poison, and meeting these conditions ends the affliction for all the doses. For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.
It's pretty cut and dry that it does indeed stack. How it stacks and how many doses consumed is really up to the DM. But if you failed the save and were still in the cloud when your next save comes around. I am pretty certain it would at least warrant a DC save +2 for each failed save while in the cloud. However, one successful save would reset the DC to the base DC.
Edit: Now that I think about it... I think multiple doses from an inhaled poison probably mean if someone threw two poison bombs at the same spot, thus increasing the concentration of the poison in the cloud meaning every round would be two doses inhaled. If so that makes a made poison bomber that keep blasting people stuck in the same cloud is very painful... Each additional bomb would up the DC by 2.
Edit #2: Sorry, is the poison bomb a magical effect? Or explained in detail like Cloudkill? Lemme check.
I am not sure where you got your poison details from or what poison you are using but the only reference I can find in the playtest PDF is
throws a smoke bomb, she can decide to include
1 dose of any inhaled poison she possesses. This
poison affects all creatures in the smoke and
lasts as long as the smoke lasts. She must pay
for the poison normally. The ninja must
have the smoke bombs ninja trick before
selecting this trick.
So I am pretty sure it is treated like mundane poison in the poison rules section, because it is mundane poison purchased and added to the bomb for effect.
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks for the reference.
edit:The poison is going to stack if you stay in the cloud, assuming it was an inhaled poison.
Ok, I'm a little confused here, while I was looking up the poisons I noticed that Nightmare Vapor only has a save DC of 20, up to this point we have been using DC 22.
Deverau, do you have something that increases the poison DC or is this just an oversight?
Could you outline how the poison smoke is supposed to work, Wraith? (So I can understand your ruling)
I`m just not 100% clear on what is being suggested... What `stacking` applies here?
Torinath was quoting and bolding parts about multiple doses increasing the DC by +2, but AFAIK the Confusion effect only lasts 1 round, so one would never be in position of making a new save while already effected by a previous dose, correct? (Barring the case of two smoke bombs overlapping the same area, which Torinath points out in one of his Edits... is the likely scenario those rules apply for)
I think this (+the centering radius on intersection thing) makes a good case for requiring people to play classes whose mechanics they solidly understand. If Deiros himself had been aware how these rules worked, even ignoring the slightly controversial or niche aspects, the game would have flowed alot smoother IMHO.
---------------------------------------------
Also Wraith, I think you needed to rule on Lethe`s Fort Save, i.e. Kevin re-rolled the Save that Shank already made... So whether to use that or the original roll. I`m not sure if Shank used the correct Save Bonus or not (Kevin seemed to think an Enchantment bonus should apply, thus had a +2 higher modifier, though everybody else differed on that), but even if a higher bonus should have been used, it seems more proper to simply apply the bonus retroactively to that roll, rather than re-do the roll itself. (Lethe failed the 1st roll, and passed the re-roll)
Could you outline how the poison smoke is supposed to work, Wraith? (So I can understand your ruling)
I`m just not 100% clear on what is being suggested... What `stacking` applies here?Torinath was quoting and bolding parts about multiple doses increasing the DC by +2, but AFAIK the Confusion effect only lasts 1 round, so one would never be in position of making a new save while already effected by a previous dose, correct? (Barring the case of two smoke bombs overlapping the same area, which Torinath points out in one of his Edits... is the likely scenario those rules apply for)
Darn I hate poison. :)
I did not read the affect of the poison. I was making a general ruling. After reading the poison it seems to me that the confused condition is only intended to last 1 round per actual does, but the wisdom damage continues until to saves or made or the duration expires. The DC to make the save goes up every round that someone is in the cloud.Also Wraith, I think you needed to rule on Lethe`s Fort Save, i.e. Kevin re-rolled the Save that Shank already made... So whether to use that or the original roll. I`m not sure if Shank used the correct Save Bonus or not (Kevin seemed to think an Enchantment bonus should apply, thus had a +2 higher modifier, though everybody else differed on that), but even if a higher bonus should have been used, it seems more proper to simply apply the bonus retroactively to that roll, rather than re-do the roll itself. (Lethe failed the 1st roll, and passed the re-roll)
The save is not against an enchantment. The save is against a poison that has what is normally an enchantment as a side affect so the +2 would not apply against the poison. If I allowed the +2 to apply then it would also affect the wisdom loss which is also not an enchantment affect, or I would have a strange situation where it affects the confusion, but not the wisdom lose. I don't see RAI or RAW being that complicated to allow 2 different saves for one ability.
In short once again the +2 does not apply.
Yup. Poison sucks...
Yup. Poison sucks...
Is the game still going? If you guys are tired of it then you can call it and we can do something else. I am just asking because it has been 4 days.
I was about to post the same question.
Sorry for my absence, being sick + broken internet is a bad combination.
I am still up for continuing...I had kind of assumed that someone from my team would have posted on my behalf while I was gone...
Sorry again guys.
Wraithstrike, it seems we need a ruling about AoO's while blinded and the savage grapple ability. Thanks
Wraithstrike, it seems we need a ruling about AoO's while blinded and the savage grapple ability. Thanks
There are no AoOs while blinded.
My grandfather died on Friday, so I was incognito all weekend and most of the week.
Also, the Paizo website hasn't been updating my list and flagging it for new posts, which is odd.
My grandfather died on Friday, so I was incognito all weekend and most of the week.
Also, the Paizo website hasn't been updating my list and flagging it for new posts, which is odd.
I am sorry to hear that. You have my condolences.
I also had the non-update issue. I think it is fixed now.