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In the description of a fire ball it says: An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must "hit"? the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
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Dose range matter & how dose it add to the AC?
How about the size of the opening & how dose it add to the AC (Door, window or arrow slit) ?
How dose movement add to the AC?
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What would be the AC for a fireball to hit (Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level):
A Window 100' away.
An arrow slit 500' away.
An arrow slit 500' away. moving 30' (war wagon single move).
An arrow slit 50' away. moving 60' (War wagon double move).
Most of this is going to fall into the realm of DM ruling. But here are the comments I would have.
1. I would apply a range modifier based upon the ranges of spells. So Touch, Short, Medium, and Long. Short would be +2, Medium +4, and Long +6. Fireball can be cast out to long range so these are only for targeting purposes on hitting a special point such as a window or arrow slit.
2. Movement has it's own rules for combat. If you were in a moving wagon you would need to make concentration checks as normal or loose the spell. Additionally if you had to make a ranged attack roll you would take the standard penalties for firing from a moving target. Normal movement is a -4 and double move is a -8 to attacks when mounted.
3. Target AC is going to be Base 10 modified by size. AC size modifiers would range from +8 to -8 in most cases. Dex of 0 would give you a -5 to AC. So the AC to hit an arrow slit at 400 feet from a charging wagon would be Base 10, Range 6, Movement 8, Size 8 Dex -5 for a total AC 28.
Attacking a window a human could crawl into from a range of 25 feet while standing still would be Base 10, Range 2, Dex -5 for a total AC 7.
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OK, say your being harried by a war wagon (construct) or a juggernaut (stone construct on rollers) with it's occupants attacking you from within the construct. They are firing at you through arrow slits and the vehicle is moving. Your 50' away and the construct is circling you at 60' per round. What AC dose the wizard need to hit to send the bead of a fireball through that arrow slit to kill the constructs occupants.
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Spells have no range modifiers. The target is in range or not. edit: -2 for Medium range and -4 for Long range might be a reasonable house rule.
An opening, like other objects, has touch AC based on its size (open doorway = Medium, half door-sized opening or partly open door = Small, arrow slit = Diminutive) and DEX modifier of -5.
Movement of 60 feet is not enough to increase AC (otherwise it would work for creatures too). d20 Modern has speed modifiers for vehicles if they are going considerably faster than this.
A wagon being driven is arguably an attended object, though, and might require a Sunder manoeuvre resisted by at least some elements of the driver's CMD (perhaps adding the driver's BAB only, since he can't reasonably apply his STR or DEX).
If that's the case, touch AC of an arrow slit on a war wagon driven by a 2nd level warrior might be 10 + 4 - 5 + 2 = 11, not much, but not guaranteed for a 5th level wizard.
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Since this in an arcane construction. Perhaps instead of BAB it should be INT modifier.
That would probably also mean a higher value target inside the construct who is driving and not attacking.
Base AC = 10
juggernaut Dex is 6 (Advanced construct) so = -2
Arrow slit AC (diminutive) = 4
Driver BAB (3ed level NPC human wizard) = 3
Distance = 0
Movement = 0
AC for the bead of a fireball to pass through the arrow slit = 15.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/juggernaut-wooden
If you take a look at the insert on this page, getting a fireball into the juggernaut requires hitting AC 20. Of course, even if the fireball just detonates on the outside, the only difference is that they get +3 on their Reflex saves from improved cover. They're still affected by the blast (the whole 'naut is within the blast radius).
Spells don't have range modifiers for distance.
Hitting a stationary opening is going to be AC 5 + size. So a diminutive opening (largest dimension is between 6 inches and one foot) would have an AC 9.
If the caster is moving check the concentration section of the magic chapter. It does not affect the attack roll... just the ability to get the spell off. Finally, the AC mode for something that is "Fine" sized is +8.
My comments about range are very much a house rule... but since you do not normally have to make an attack roll at all for fireball under any conditions you are already into the realm of house rules.
10 -5 (object dex) + size modifier.
Treat it as a ranged touch attack. I would say 100 ft. Range increment, far shot should count.
Of course this is just my GM discretion.
You don't apply -5 for a object having no dex. Just as you don't apply -5 to someone who's frozen in place. They lose dex bonuses. An object doesn't have a dex bonus.
You don't apply -5 for a object having no dex. Just as you don't apply -5 to someone who's frozen in place. They lose dex bonuses. An object doesn't have a dex bonus.
Actually, check the helpless condition and you will see that someone who cannot move is treated as having a dex of 0.
You don't apply -5 for a object having no dex. Just as you don't apply -5 to someone who's frozen in place. They lose dex bonuses. An object doesn't have a dex bonus.Actually, check the helpless condition and you will see that someone who cannot move is treated as having a dex of 0.
Hmmm, Ok, grant you that then. However, the moving wagon used in the example above is not an immoble object, so it should not have a -5 penalty.
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Since this in an arcane construction. Perhaps instead of BAB it should be INT modifier.
That would probably also mean a higher value target inside the construct who is driving and not attacking.
Base AC = 10
juggernaut Dex is 6 (Advanced construct) so = -2
Arrow slit AC (diminutive) = 4
Driver BAB (3ed level NPC human wizard) = 3
If it's a construct (not a mundane wagon, as I had assumed) it doesn't use the controller's statistics and no rule says you can aim a spell inside a creature anyway, unless for either question the creature's description says otherwise, as the above link does for the juggernaut.
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Hmmm, Ok, grant you that then. However, the moving wagon used in the example above is not an immoble object, so it should not have a -5 penalty.You don't apply -5 for a object having no dex. Just as you don't apply -5 to someone who's frozen in place. They lose dex bonuses. An object doesn't have a dex bonus.Actually, check the helpless condition and you will see that someone who cannot move is treated as having a dex of 0.
Interesting. So once an object starts moving (technically, moving relative to the surface of Golarion) it moves without Dexterity, as a vermin acts without Intelligence or a construct animates without Constitution?
Why does it appear to have 7 points higher Dexterity than a flat-footed creature with DEX 3 walking down the same street?
I would at least want to adjust its quasi-Dexterity by size.
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So here is the deal. I wrote the Juggernaut (Stone)to use in a Legacy of Fire campaign I'm planning on running. I'm planning on using it in the beginning of book 3 when the PC's are traveling to Katapesh. I'm guessing most everyone has skimmed the AP at this point and I just want to throw in some surprises.
Since my juggernaut attackers can fire out of the juggernaut I assume that my PC's will be able to fire back. That being the case the most effective tactic would be to slip a fire ball into the cab of the juggernaut killing the occupants. Of course I could be a evil DM and have the driver give the command attack with his dying breath allowing the damaged juggernaut to roll on.
So from what I can gather from the rules it would be an AC 12 to slip a fireball bead into an arrow slit of an juggernaut (unless someone can point me to some new info).
Base AC = 10
juggernaut Dex is 6 (Advanced construct) so = -2
Arrow slit AC (diminutive) = 4
With this being the case I may just section off the interior of the juggernaut into a "T" shape. With the driver up front and attackers on the sides. I can add a glass window in the front which will cause early detonation to any fireball, Which will still damage the juggernaut and blow out the glass shield so a second fireball would be even more effective.
Scott.
A 12 is way too low to put a fireball bead through an arrow slit, if that was realistic (or even rational within game) then no-one would ever bother with arrow slits.
May I suggest you instead use cover rules? What you're trying to do is target the inside of the juggernaut. The inside has 98% cover from the armor on the walls. So what you're trying to do is target something with 98% cover (same as if you were aiming for an archer inside the arrow slit), so use the rules for Improved Cover.
Improved Cover: In some cases, such as attacking a target hiding behind an arrowslit, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations, the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Stealth checks.
So, tote up the AC of the slit, and add +8 for improved cover, so 20 to hit the slot, and everyone get's improved evasion (to represent that it may hit just inside the slit, or just outside the slit, instead of inside).
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Well I could probably not give both the cover bonus +8 and diminutive bonus +4 since a person firing out through an arrow slit dose not get both. However I can certainly give a "DM fiat" bonus of +2 for the movement of the juggernaut. So now I just need to decide which mechanic feels more correct the cover or size bonus.
Taking votes:
I have a wizard who is trying to fire the bead of a fire ball into a moving juggernaut (war wagon) through its arrow slits in hope of killing the occupants. What AC dose the wizard need to hit in order to have the fireball detonate inside the juggernaut.
A)
Base AC = 10
Juggernaut DEX is 6 (advanced construct) = -2
Arrow slit AC (diminutive) = 4
Movement (DM fiat) = 2
Total AC to place the bead of a fireball through the arrow slit of a moving juggernaut = 14.
B)
Base AC = 10
Juggernaut DEX is 6 (advanced construct) = -2
Improved cover bonus = 8
Movement (DM fiat) = 2
Total AC to place the bead of a fireball through the arrow slit of a moving juggernaut = 18.
c)
Other.
Assuming a mundane stationary war wagon,
10 Base AC
08 Improved Cover*
08 Size modifier (fine)
-5 Zero Dexterity
21 TOTAL AC
Assuming a mundane MOVING war wagon,
10 Base AC
08 Improved Cover*
08 Size modifier (fine)
00 Average Dexterity
26 TOTAL AC
*An arrow slit gives a target improved cover, so this seemed like a nice miscellaneous modifier representing the difficulty of getting past the tiny little hole. Omitting this modifier would make sense, as well as it is conceptually the same as the size modifier, which would leave a GM with AC 13 and AC 18 respectively (which can still be easily missed due to a spellcasters low BAB).
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Ravingdork, I think a fly or perhaps the head of an arrow is fine size so I would probably stick with diminutive. Though both you and Stubs McKenzie make good arguments for using the cover bonus which I think is the way to go.
As for the DM fiat I guess everyone is considered moving in combat so it's not necessary.
Thus I'll go with:
Base AC = 10
Juggernaut DEX is 6 (advanced construct) = -2
Improved cover bonus = 8
Total AC to place the bead of a fireball through the arrow slit of a moving juggernaut = 16.
I'm OK with that since the more I thought about it makes sense to section off the interior to a "T" like shape, to protect against fireballs (Driver up front and attackers on the side). At the level this will go off a wizard would likely have a 50/50 shot at passing the bead of a fireball through the opening of an arrow slit. Furthermore, The driver in front will have a glass window that would cause early detonation of at least the first fireball. This way hit or miss a fireball will still be effective against a juggernaut and if you hit you'll take out some, but not all the bad guys. It's victory, but not total with one spell. It lets the PC's feel good, but keeps the combat running. Of course, the trick is not to destroy the juggernaut as you can capture it and drive it around the desert, with it which I think my PC's may enjoy as well. Also, it valuable, but in LoF it's not that useful.
You can find a similar image to what my juggernaut would look like in the AD&D module X4 "Master of the Desert Nomads", both on the cover and inside the module. Another image source is the 1986 Game Accessory AC9 (TSR# 9173), "Creature Catalog". There is a 3.5 image of a juggernaut on page 132 of the Monster Manual II, but this juggernaut is nothing like that one. Mine is just an embellished advanced huge animated object.
I may be using parts of the AD&D module X4 "Master of the Desert Nomads", in my Legacy of Fire campaign. Modules X4 and X5 were given 10 out of 10 by white dwarf magazine, plus the modules are at the right levels and set in the desert with a swamp (i.e. the Vargas Swamp which the PC's have to pass on the way to the city of Katapesh.) Though I may simply use the juggernaut in, "The Jackal's Price" when Shiz attacks the PC's.