Why should the woman apologize? She didn't do anything wrong. I also wouldn't do this, because it implies that the behavior is acceptable and that the fault is with me for finding it uncomfortable.
Diplomacy: The art of telling somebody to go to hell and having them look forward to the trip.
If you confront them, then the rest of the pack WILL rally around them regardless of whether they are right or wrong. You don't want that, it's a fight you cannot win. You want them isolated, with the rest of the pack on YOUR side, not theirs.
Starting with 'I'm sorry' means you are going out of the way not to cause offence, you are making clear that you are not trying to farce a confrontation. You don't have to use those words, you can start with 'you may not realise' or some other, but that opening phrase is the best to make clear that you are being informative and not making an attack. It may make no difference to that person, but it can make a big difference to the others present. Who cares if everyone else thinks it's their fault or your fault? The important thing is making them stop.
Of course you don't HAVE to, you can tell them where to stick it and have done. But if the object is to change attitudes and have a good game, that's not the best way to do it. Your choice.
Let me start by mentioning that, like most gaming dorks, I'm not a social superstar. Nevertheless, I've taken any amount of sensitivity and non-harassment training at work, and have a number of long-term female friends, and I try not to randomly offend them, if I can help it. In that light I'm a little disturbed at some of the implications in some of the posts here. Not all, and these things aren't binary in any event, but there are hints creeping in at the edges that are creeping me out a bit. I'm sort of getting the impression that some people, on some level at least, believe that:
It is my belief that gender equality implies just that. Yes, in a case with multiple males and one female, the female has equal rights in these matters to all the males combined. The same is true, however, for a lone male in a female-dominated group (if he'd be allowed at all).
Just as I don't believe any male has the right to knowingly offend female friends, I also don't feel that it's every female's right to mentally declare arbitrary rules of what's offensive, change them at will, fail to communicate them, and otherwise set up situations in which male friends who dare to speak will inevitably, sooner or later, become evil male ex-friend jerks. I also feel that some reactions to being offended can easily cause a lot more offense than the initial act, and in those cases, extreme overreaction (by a person of either gender) sort of makes that person the real jerk.
Why should the woman apologize? She didn't do anything wrong. I also wouldn't do this, because it implies that the behavior is acceptable and that the fault is with me for finding it uncomfortable.Diplomacy: The art of telling somebody to go to hell and having them look forward to the trip.
If you confront them, then the rest of the pack WILL rally around them regardless of whether they are right or wrong. You don't want that, it's a fight you cannot win. You want them isolated, with the rest of the pack on YOUR side, not theirs.
Starting with 'I'm sorry' means you are going out of the way not to cause offence, you are making clear that you are not trying to farce a confrontation.
Except that by calling out the behavior, I AM confronting them. Starting the confrontation on a weak footing by making it sound as though I'm apologizing for being offended by their inappropriate behavior seems counterproductive to me.
But I should note that this opinion comes from the perspective of someone who grew up with an overabundance of guilt and who spent many, many years apologizing for *everything*, whether it was my fault or not. I've worked really hard to get to the point where I don't feel I have to apologize for everything I do, and I bristle a little at suggestions to apologize in situations where I haven't clearly wronged someone. That's my own personal bugaboo, though, and I understand you're coming at it from a different perspective, so prefacing a confrontation in that manner might work better for you.
Let me start by mentioning that, like most gaming dorks, I'm not a social superstar. Nevertheless, I've taken any amount of sensitivity and non-harassment training at work, and have a number of long-term female friends, and I try not to randomly offend them, if I can help it. In that light I'm a little disturbed at some of the implications in some of the posts here. Not all, and these things aren't binary in any event, but there are hints creeping in at the edges that are creeping me out a bit. I'm sort of getting the impression that some people, on some level at least, believe that:
Only males are capable of inappropriate remarks;
Such males are total jerks if they are incapable of telepathically reading a female's true reaction, as opposed to a social mask;
No reaction to being offended can ever be considered offensive, no matter how out of proportion (e.g., male makes an inappropriate remark; female leaves entirely and never returns; male should just accept that he's a jerk, and has no right to any explanation).
Much of the conversation has been about situations where men make derogatory remarks about women in a gaming context. This is because the thread started with an opinion of Gary Gygax's that is not exactly complimentary to women. But I haven't seen ANYONE in this thread claim that only men are ever offensive. The women who are posting here are relating their personal experiences with men stereotyping them or behaving inappropriately at the game table, because that's the topic of the thread. Should we go out of our way to carefully disclaim that we realize women can be offensive as well before we talk about our own experiences? I'm fine with acknowledging that point, but it wouldn't occur to me to do so as a matter of course, because it seems more or less irrelevant to the point when I'm relating my own experience.
I also feel that some reactions to being offended can easily cause a lot more offense than the initial act, and in those cases, extreme overreaction (by a person of either gender) sort of makes that person the real jerk.
I agree. Honestly, sometime it is in fact the person who was offended fault. Very few things are in of themselves offensive, across the board. Too many times, I've seen people say that X is offensive, and then in a different situation will do X themselves. Sometimes, the person who is offended just really has an axe to grind or frankly needs to find a sense of humor.
Of course sometimes the other person really is an offensive jerk, but I don't think just because you (general you) find someone offensive, that is always the fault of the other person. Maybe you just have personal hang-ups that you either need to deal with or avoid. Forcing others to conform to your idealized behavior can be just as oppressive as having to put up with their offensive behavior.
I know that most of us have had that person that you feel like you have to walk on eggshells around because they get offended and/or go off at the slightest thing. If the people around you are not offending you at least some of the time, you might be that person everyone is tip-toeing around.
In-fact, I've converted three (out of four attempts) female friends into gamers after persuading them to try. Initially they were convinced they wouldn't like it, that it was dumb, blah blah. Half an hour in they were hooked.What this proves is that gaming have things to appeal females, but is nothing they are interested by themselves, I can figure a roleplaying heavy campaing as interesting to some,but the dungeon crawl type its a no,no,no for most females.
Interestingly my personal experience is just the opposite. Women outnumber men in my current FR game by 2 to 1 usually, and they are definitely about the combat and action.
1. But I haven't seen ANYONE in this thread claim that only men are ever offensive.
2. Should we go out of our way to carefully disclaim that we realize women can be offensive as well before we talk about our own experiences?
3. I'm fine with acknowledging that point
4. but it wouldn't occur to me to do so as a matter of course, because it seems more or less irrelevant to the point when I'm relating my own experience.
1. "Hints around the edges" =/= "claims"
2. Acknowledgment never hurts, especially since the overall topic is about not needlessly offending people -- and see especially point #4.3. Great! Thank you.
4. I should think that "Irrelevant to the point when relating own experience" might be a mite too strong a statement, unless you yourself can say with certainty that you've never offended anyone? Especially because some of the "reasonable" retaliation being proposed by some is more offensive than most juvenile, moronic jokes could hope to be.
1. But I haven't seen ANYONE in this thread claim that only men are ever offensive.
2. Should we go out of our way to carefully disclaim that we realize women can be offensive as well before we talk about our own experiences?
3. I'm fine with acknowledging that point
4. but it wouldn't occur to me to do so as a matter of course, because it seems more or less irrelevant to the point when I'm relating my own experience.1. "Hints around the edges" =/= "claims"
2. Acknowledgment never hurts, especially since the overall topic is about not needlessly offending people -- and see especially point #4.
3. Great! Thank you.
4. I should think that "Irrelevant to the point when relating own experience" might be a mite too strong a statement, unless you yourself can say with certainty that you've never offended anyone? Especially because some of the "reasonable" retaliation being proposed by some is more offensive than most juvenile, moronic jokes could hope to be.
I'm confused.
What I've seen in this thread is this: The thread started with Gary Gygax's postulation that women don't game because our minds work differently and veered off into other speculations about why more women don't game. One of the reasons presented for why women might be turned off gaming is that often gaming groups are predominantly male and aren't particularly welcoming to women. There followed several women relating personal experiences in which a predominantly male gaming group behaved problematically. As far as I saw, none of us ever made any claims, implied or otherwise, that women are never offensive. But the topic at hand was predominantly male gaming groups being unwelcoming to women, and so that's what I, at least, talked about.
It never occurred to me that a disclaimer about recognizing that women sometimes behave offensively would be necessary because I don't see that issue as being related to the topic of gaming being a predominantly male hobby with a player base that is variably welcoming to women.
So no, it's not that I think I've never offended anyone. It's just that the message you took from some of the posts on this thread (that women are never offensive and men often are) is not a subtext that I was aware of until you brought it up, so it wouldn't have occurred to me to explicitly deny it. Nor is it one that I see when I go back and skim posts in the thread, but I don't need to see it to believe that you do. Everyone interprets things differently. For my part, if I said anything that came across that way, it wasn't what I meant, and I'd be happy to clarify any specific misunderstandings.
Why should the woman apologize? She didn't do anything wrong. I also wouldn't do this, because it implies that the behavior is acceptable and that the fault is with me for finding it uncomfortable.Diplomacy: The art of telling somebody to go to hell and having them look forward to the trip.
If you confront them, then the rest of the pack WILL rally around them regardless of whether they are right or wrong. You don't want that, it's a fight you cannot win. You want them isolated, with the rest of the pack on YOUR side, not theirs.
Starting with 'I'm sorry' means you are going out of the way not to cause offence, you are making clear that you are not trying to farce a confrontation.
Except that by calling out the behavior, I AM confronting them. Starting the confrontation on a weak footing by making it sound as though I'm apologizing for being offended by their inappropriate behavior seems counterproductive to me.
But I should note that this opinion comes from the perspective of someone who grew up with an overabundance of guilt and who spent many, many years apologizing for *everything*, whether it was my fault or not. I've worked really hard to get to the point where I don't feel I have to apologize for everything I do, and I bristle a little at suggestions to apologize in situations where I haven't clearly wronged someone. That's my own personal bugaboo, though, and I understand you're coming at it from a different perspective, so prefacing a confrontation in that manner might work better for you.
Indeed - 'excuse me' is another way to open things that is polite and intrinsically non-confrontational rather than openly confrontational. Consider it a stealth attack :D
The important thing to me is to confront the behaviour, not necessarily the person. As a trainee teacher I'm learning a lot of these control techniques for not so much calling on people who are out of line, so much as making them realise that they are out of line.
A discussion on gender relations is a mine field for men to participate in. Especially online where tone and inflection is absent. Attempts at friendly advice can be misinterpreted or misrepresented.
I know a lot of guys that will actively avoid such conversations out of fear that they will end up being branded with misogynist stick. This saddens me because a lot of chances at reaching a common ground is lost.
I can understand why it is irksome to have to educate people on good social behaviour where their peers, parents and state have failed to do so – on the other hand if you don’t educate these people then these people are free to continue in their behaviour and will do so and other women will suffer.
I am of Australian Aboriginal descent, I don’t look Aboriginal and I don’t identify as an Aboriginal, but more than once or twice a year I will encounter people making racist statements about Aboriginal people. I have two choices I can avoid confrontation and these people will continue to be racists or I can tell them I am of Aboriginal descent .
When I do tell them that I am of Aboriginal descent they apologise – I then wrong foot them and ask if they are apologising for offending me or being racisists. I ask them to look at the treatment of Aboriginal people since colonisation and have some compassion. 9 times out of ten these people will continue in their racist ways but every one person I get to stop being dicks is a victory I savour.
I'm confused.
My point is that a massively offensive over-retaliation might just make women even less welcome with that particular group of males in the future. I'm not saying you personally would do that -- but I've known people in the past (in other parts of the U.S.) who did.
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I know a lot of guys that will actively avoid such conversations out of fear that they will end up being branded with misogynist stick...
Yo [points at self]
I'm not nearly eloquent (or whatever its typed equivalent is) enough to discuss this sort of thing online so I usually lurk in this sort of discussion.
This made me smile.My wife does not play the game I run partially because it is so plot driven and she prefers to just kill things.
+1
I seldom play in this campaign that has a husband and wife play as players. The husband got the wife to play so they can hang out together. 100% of the time if the husband can't play for any reason the wife is 100% out as well. You make your own conclusions on how well this makes for a good gaming group or campaign.
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I'm confused.My point is that a massively offensive over-retaliation might just make women even less welcome with that particular group of males in the future. I'm not saying you personally would do that -- but I've known people in the past (in other parts of the U.S.) who did.
Well, then that story belongs in the topic too. If you're not willing to speak up, then we can't correct our bad behavior now, can we?
Well, then that story belongs in the topic too. If you're not willing to speak up, then we can't correct our bad behavior now, can we?
Fair enough... but let me hasten to add that, to the best of my knowledge, no one on this thread would do something quite like this. It's a matter of scale -- does the punishment fit the crime, or are you assassinating someone for drawing a cartoon (for example)?
---
Ten years or so ago, I had a friend who used to do things like that as a matter of course -- find some minor thing to become offended at, as a pretext to vent aggression under the guise of "righteous fury." In my case, I avoided it for years, and got mostly her side of stories -- so I always wondered how people could possibly be jerks enough to offend such a nice person. Me and the other people in our in-group (her husband, her son-in-law) always wondered a bit at the sheer lengths at which she'd hold a grudge, but, hey, different strokes, you know? Then one day I finally had the misfortune to find myself with two events to attend in the same night, neither of which I wanted to blow off entirely -- I went to the first one (hosted by my friend) early, helped set up, stayed as long as I could during the actual event, and then apologized and went to the next one.
Fine? No. Apparently that "deeply offended" her, unbeknown to me at the time. Thereafter, she would constantly direct snide comments at me, like picking at a scab: "Oh, don't bother inviting him, he'll just waltz out early," that kind of stuff, with a real nasty edge to a lot of it. Constantly. Finally I got tired of it and stopped going to things she was involved in entirely. Not long thereafter, her husband (a good friend of mine) took a wrong step somewhere and got the same treatment -- they're not together anymore, I understand. It's sad, but there you have it.
The moral is: some people will do things that offend others, usually unintentionally. Using that as a pretext for massive retaliation doesn't get you any further than a more reasonable response would. Escalating things by offending them ten times as badly, then saying "they deserved it, the prick!!!" hurts, in the long run. Being offended does not open the floodgates for any sort of nastiness a person might care to indulge in. This isn't just for gaming groups, but for social groups in general.
Well, then that story belongs in the topic too. If you're not willing to speak up, then we can't correct our bad behavior now, can we?I'm confused.My point is that a massively offensive over-retaliation might just make women even less welcome with that particular group of males in the future. I'm not saying you personally would do that -- but I've known people in the past (in other parts of the U.S.) who did.
+1.
Well, then that story belongs in the topic too. If you're not willing to speak up, then we can't correct our bad behavior now, can we?
+1.
See post immediately above yours, O unobservant one.
See post immediately above yours, O unobservant one.Well, then that story belongs in the topic too. If you're not willing to speak up, then we can't correct our bad behavior now, can we?
+1.
Strange..I didn't see it when I posted. Probably due to my own posting errors(opened it up in a separate window and responded a while later). Revoke that +1!!!!
Indeed - 'excuse me' is another way to open things that is polite and intrinsically non-confrontational rather than openly confrontational. Consider it a stealth attack :D
I'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic or not. "Excuse me" is way up there with "No offence, but..." on the list of things that rais serious red flags when I read/hear them.
I'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic or not. "Excuse me" is way up there with "No offence, but..." on the list of things that rais serious red flags when I read/hear them.
Indeed - 'excuse me' is another way to open things that is polite and intrinsically non-confrontational rather than openly confrontational. Consider it a stealth attack :D
Nah, "No offense, but" is by far the worse one. "Excuse me" is more of a dropping of the gauntlet than "no offense", which is imo the equivalent of a slap across the face with an empty glove.
I'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic or not. "Excuse me" is way up there with "No offence, but..." on the list of things that rais serious red flags when I read/hear them.
Indeed - 'excuse me' is another way to open things that is polite and intrinsically non-confrontational rather than openly confrontational. Consider it a stealth attack :D
This won't be read, it'll be said, and how you say something is just as important as how you say it.
And then blow the box up.O.o
How about we just say it doesn't float?
And not blow the box with Greg in it up.
That sounds like a happy plan.
I am quite happy being one piece at peace, if this is a problem... I can take my box elsewhere. Honest.
Too late. When it comes to boxes, I AM QUEEN! Plus, I acquired the Maru template last level up! {pounces on Greg-in-a-Box}
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...story of grudge lady...
Did you ever have a conversation over this with her? A "I'm sorry you're still upset over that party, but I did the best I could to be with everyone. Could you drop that now?"
I've known people that would respond to such a conversation with a false "Oh, no, I'm fine!" and then would go back to fuming. But others might realize they were holding a grudge forever and seek to deal with it without making you miserable forever.
Have you ever seen this with gaming, however? Have you noticed that women in gaming groups do this on a regular basis?
The problem I've heard of most often with women gamers is women coming to the game that don't want to game, but want to either:
1. Keep an eye on their significant other while he's with his friends
2. Look for conquests
I've never run into either situation. Every "significant other" female I've gamed with has been interested in the game in it's own right, and the only player that ever a ruined a group over relationships was a guy trying to start something with the DM's wife.
I will admit that the most egregiously awful game, the one where I was given one of two characters to play, I didn't even bother with a "I find that offensive" comment. I figure anyone would know that's an insult. So I responded with snark for the session, and after I got out, never went back.
I've had games ruined by players that had a problem and didn't want to address it. Instead they let it fester until they blew up and exploded the gaming group or campaign over the issue that wasn't addressed while it was still fixable. This has always been a male player, but anyone that does that can be frustrating. Seeing that happen, I try to address things if I see a problem. Given my tendency to freeze and evaluate afterward, usually it's addressed the second time it pops up, but I figure that keeps me from blowing the whistle prematurely on a one time event, so it's not all bad.
Did you ever have a conversation over this with her? A "I'm sorry you're still upset over that party, but I did the best I could to be with everyone. Could you drop that now?" I've known people that would respond to such a conversation with a false "Oh, no, I'm fine!" and then would go back to fuming.
I did, and that was more or less the exact outcome.
Have you noticed that women in gaming groups do this on a regular basis?
On a regular basis? No, not at all. But "once bitten, twice shy" sets in, where you sort of start thinking, "Wow, reading all these comments, I sort of feel like some people are looking for an excuse to throw a 'righteous' fit." I get enough drama at work; I like to avoid it in my personal life. So inviting anyone is a big risk, and if that person is a certain temperament of female besides... is that too big a risk for a casual hobby?
In your particular case, we'd talked on the boards, and Derek vouched for you -- two layers of security I prefer for players of ANY gender -- and I should mention that I needn't have worried; you added so much to the game that it was totally worth it. Hopefully I didn't say anything TOO offensive -- if so, profuse apologies.
The problem I've heard of most often with women gamers is women coming to the game that don't want to game, but want to either:
1. Keep an eye on their significant other while he's with his friends
2. Look for conquests
I've never run into either situation.
Me, neither -- either case.
A few thoughts, based on the general gist of the way this conversation are going:
- If you are upset, you have a right to say you are upset. This does NOT automatically mean the other person is in the wrong. It also does NOT automatically mean you are wrong for being upset. Feelings are feelings; there is no right or wrong to them in fact--just thoughts and behaviors behind them that we can adjust/analyse/clarify/etc. as we will.
- If you can say you are upset in a constructive way (look up how to do useful things like "I statements" and the like) and show that you are trying to resolve a situation and not perpetuate it, this opens the opportunity for one of two things to happen:
--1: The person doing the upsetting behavior gets the opportunity to clarify their behavior in a non-threatening environment. In the very common case that it is a misunderstanding, this usually results in apologies on both sides and a "cleared air" feeling between the two parties as the issue is resolved. If the person recognizes that they did something upsetting and works out an agreement with you not to do it again, this is also resolved.
--2: The person doing the upsetting behavior aggressively defends their upsetting behavior and further attacks the upset person for being upset and doesn't give a s%+& about the other person being upset--because again, feeling upset isn't wrong, and a compassionate person is going to care that the other person is upset even why they are upset doesn't personally make sense to them--then you learn that person is a jerk, and you leave and move on, and the issue is resolved.
- No one is infallible, regardless of what bits you might find between their legs, the majority of what hormones pump through a person's brain and body, or what social gender identity a person associates themselves with.
- Some people, regardless of bits/hormones/identity, are jerks.
- When someone says, "I had a bad encounter with a group of men," that person is not likely attacking ALL MEN EVERYWHERE, let alone YOU (generic), so there is no reason for YOU to feel defensive, and likewise when someone says, "I had a bad encounter with a group of women," that person is not likely attacking ALL WOMEN EVERYWHERE, let alone YOU (generic), so there is no reason for YOU to feel defensive. What it does mean, is that person had a bad situation, and you can not respond at all, respond sympathetically, or be an a*%$#*+ about it, depending on your personal predilections (see above).
- Likewise, if you had a bad encounter with someone, it does not mean all people of that particular general physiology are going to behave like that person. "I knew a person with boobs who just gamed to make her boyfriend like her, and you have boobs, so you suck!" is not going to get you anywhere, nor is, "I knew a person with a penis who wouldn't let me play with him, and you have a penis, so you suck!" (Disclaimer: I am not suggesting anyone in this thread said these things. I am making an example that is both hyperbolic and hypothetical in order to make a point, which I hope is clear.)
- On the other hand, if a person has had a LOT of repeated bad experiences with a person of a certain physiology, understand why a person may have drawn certain conclusions. Remind the person without attacking that person that you are sorry they WERE IN A BAD SITUATION (you do not have to apologize for persons of your physiology, just show sympathy for the specific things that happened to them), assure them not all people are like that, and exemplify the point through your own behavior. If the person attacks you for being of a certain physiology despite this, then they are a jerk and there is nothing you can do (but likely they are also not exemplars of persons of their physiology) (see also above).
- Generally speaking, most threads like this fall apart because people cannot tell generalities apart from specifics, and take statements personally that were not intended for them (myself included at times). (Or, perhaps, they intentionally choose to conflate generalities for specifics.)
- Following along with that, generalities are useful for helping understand TRENDS--but part of understanding a TREND is understanding that not everyone is part of said trend. If 80% of people behave a certain way, yes that means most but it doesn't mean the 20% doesn't exist (just as we know, there's a 5% chance of rolling a 1 on a d20 but that very small chance still happens). Examining these things can help us avoid repeating or ensuing bad TRENDS, but not if people unduly take offense at discussing the issues at hand.
- If you see any part of this statement as attacking you (as in anyone possibly reading this) personally or attacking all men, or attacking all women, you are reading something into it that is not here. Examine your reasoning carefully, because all of these statements are definitely intended to be general, and not specific.
Generally speaking, most threads like this fall apart because people cannot tell generalities apart from specifics
Amen! Good post, DQ.
You're talking about me, aren't you?! That's it, I'm gonna tell you what the next time I see you! ;)
How about if I bribe you with a V. 2.0 CD?
Generally speaking, anything TOZ says is wrong. ;) ;) ;)
But look, sparkly thing!
:D
A beautiful summation and a lot of stuff I agree with.
Well said! You've condensed a great deal of what's been running through my mind into a single post.
A beautiful summation and a lot of stuff I agree with.Well said! You've condensed a great deal of what's been running through my mind into a single post.
DeathQuaker does that alot in posts, You think the thread is a miasma of posts that keep just don't really say what needs to be said and BAM.
In comes DQ with the dilly bar post. Cuts thru the garbage. I am not generally on threads that Quaker posts on...but I like what she says.
Greg
Too late. When it comes to boxes, I AM QUEEN! Plus, I acquired the Maru template last level up! {pounces on Greg-in-a-Box}And then blow the box up.O.o
How about we just say it doesn't float?
And not blow the box with Greg in it up.
That sounds like a happy plan.
I am quite happy being one piece at peace, if this is a problem... I can take my box elsewhere. Honest.
Demmit.
Well, I tried. I guess there are worse ways to die then to be mauled by a big kitty. Actually, my kitty mauls me in my sleep alot. She likes to get up about an hour before my alarm goes off... and doesn't appreciate it when I choose to sleep instead of play.
C'est la chatte.
Greg
QFT!I don’t think liking math (or whether women ‘tend’ to like math less than men do) has anything much at all to do with liking D&D.
I like maths but I am crap at it... I love reading about quantum physics and string theory, do I understand it? nope... but it is still cool.
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A few thoughts, based on the general gist of the way this conversation are going:
- If you are upset, you have a right to say you are upset. This does NOT automatically mean the other person is in the wrong. It also does NOT automatically mean you are wrong for being upset. Feelings are feelings; there is no right or wrong to them in fact--just thoughts and behaviors behind them that we can adjust/analyse/clarify/etc. as we will.
- If you can say you are upset in a constructive way (look up how to do useful things like "I statements" and the like) and show that you are trying to resolve a situation and not perpetuate it, this opens the opportunity for one of two things to happen:
--1: The person doing the upsetting behavior gets the opportunity to clarify their behavior in a non-threatening environment. In the very common case that it is a misunderstanding, this usually results in apologies on both sides and a "cleared air" feeling between the two parties as the issue is resolved. If the person recognizes that they did something upsetting and works out an agreement with you not to do it again, this is also resolved.
--2: The person doing the upsetting behavior aggressively defends their upsetting behavior and further attacks the upset person for being upset and doesn't give a s&!~ about the other person being upset--because again, feeling upset isn't wrong, and a compassionate person is going to care that the other person is upset even why they are upset doesn't personally make sense to them--then you learn that person is a jerk, and you leave and move on, and the issue is resolved.- No one is infallible, regardless of what bits you might find between their legs, the majority of what hormones pump through a person's brain and body, or what social gender identity a person associates themselves with.
- Some people, regardless of bits/hormones/identity, are jerks.
- When someone says, "I had a bad encounter with a group of men," that person is not likely attacking ALL MEN EVERYWHERE, let alone YOU...
That annoying noise you hear is me clapping my hands. Good post.
{a massive big dose of common sense and intelligence combined}
I think this says everything that needs to be said on the subject.
This won't be read, it'll be said, and how you say something is just as important as how you say it.I'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic or not. "Excuse me" is way up there with "No offence, but..." on the list of things that rais serious red flags when I read/hear them.
Indeed - 'excuse me' is another way to open things that is polite and intrinsically non-confrontational rather than openly confrontational. Consider it a stealth attack :D
When I read it, I only imagine the tone someone would use for words like "Feel lucky, punk?" :D
I have meet one girl that is in Jess's group 2. She worked her way threw all the guys of two over lapping groups but one. He only cause he was gay. After she had her fun she moved on to a new group.
No offense (just kidding!), but did you give away your spelling for Xmas? ;-P
Far be it from me to make fun of people with a more "relaxed" approach to proper spelling and all that (well, except in my head of course ;-)), but I never noticed it in your posts, and this one is chock full of them. Or is that the egg-nog talking (or writing)? :D
Of course, it could just be a random glitch. People have these. I once wanted to write "Neverwinger Nights: Hordes of the Underdark" and managed to wrie "Neverwinter Knights: Lords of the Underdark". I had another poster point that out to me, too.
I was staggered. Flummoxed. Flabbergasted.
I have meet one girl that is in Jess's group 2. She worked her way threw all the guys of two over lapping groups but one. He only cause he was gay. After she had her fun she moved on to a new group.
It's good to know this is actually happening. I was about to regulate the entire idea to pure fantasy.
A few thoughts, based on the general gist of the way this conversation are going:
- If you are upset, you have a right to say you are upset. This does NOT automatically mean the other person is in the wrong. It also does NOT automatically mean you are wrong for being upset. Feelings are feelings; there is no right or wrong to them in fact--just thoughts and behaviors behind them that we can adjust/analyse/clarify/etc. as we will.
- If you can say you are upset in a constructive way (look up how to do useful things like "I statements" and the like) and show that you are trying to resolve a situation and not perpetuate it, this opens the opportunity for one of two things to happen:
--1: The person doing the upsetting behavior gets the opportunity to clarify their behavior in a non-threatening environment. In the very common case that it is a misunderstanding, this usually results in apologies on both sides and a "cleared air" feeling between the two parties as the issue is resolved. If the person recognizes that they did something upsetting and works out an agreement with you not to do it again, this is also resolved.
--2: The person doing the upsetting behavior aggressively defends their upsetting behavior and further attacks the upset person for being upset and doesn't give a s&#* about the other person being upset--because again, feeling upset isn't wrong, and a compassionate person is going to care that the other person is upset even why they are upset doesn't personally make sense to them--then you learn that person is a jerk, and you leave and move on, and the issue is resolved.- No one is infallible, regardless of what bits you might find between their legs, the majority of what hormones pump through a person's brain and body, or what social gender identity a person associates themselves with.
- Some people, regardless of bits/hormones/identity, are jerks.
- When someone says, "I had a bad encounter with a group of men," that person is not likely attacking ALL MEN EVERYWHERE, let alone YOU...
Kirth, Lindisty, Feytharn, Dabbler, Freehold_DM: Well, shucks. Thank you.
Greg Wasson, I think you made me blush. :)
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I have meet one girl that is in Jess's group 2. She worked her way threw all the guys of two over lapping groups but one. He only cause he was gay. After she had her fun she moved on to a new group.No offense (just kidding!), but did you give away your spelling for Xmas? ;-P
Far be it from me to make fun of people with a more "relaxed" approach to proper spelling and all that (well, except in my head of course ;-)), but I never noticed it in your posts, and this one is chock full of them. Or is that the egg-nog talking (or writing)? :D
Of course, it could just be a random glitch. People have these. I once wanted to write "Neverwinger Nights: Hordes of the Underdark" and managed to wrie "Neverwinter Knights: Lords of the Underdark". I had another poster point that out to me, too.
I was staggered. Flummoxed. Flabbergasted.
Sometimes if I am tired or in a hurry I don't pay attention to how I write. Normally I try to take the time to make sure type well.
In response to Mister Gygax I have a hard time believing that. I can only speak from personal experience but women seem to get just as much pleasure from a well run roleplaying game as any man.
In the past I have run mostly all male games but in my current game I have 4 female players and 1 male and the women are just as active and engaged as the man. No deficiency's in rules comprehension or math skills here either.
On another note I think it's funny how many stories people have of playing with another person they found gross and offensive who ruined the experience for them. I would never in a million years play an RPG with someone I wouldn't want to spend time with in any other social setting. I guess I could understand if you were just trying to make new friends and things just went south. It just seems in my experience that RPG's in general require a high level of both trust and friendship between players for a truly spectacular game and playing with someone you hate is one of the biggest wastes of time and energy you could ever do, at least from a recreational side.
Note: I realize the internet is tone neutral and some of the things I've said might seem kinda harsh. It's not intended to be.
Sometimes if I am tired or in a hurry I don't pay attention to how I write. Normally I try to take the time to make sure type well.I have meet one girl that is in Jess's group 2. She worked her way threw all the guys of two over lapping groups but one. He only cause he was gay. After she had her fun she moved on to a new group.No offense (just kidding!), but did you give away your spelling for Xmas? ;-P
Far be it from me to make fun of people with a more "relaxed" approach to proper spelling and all that (well, except in my head of course ;-)), but I never noticed it in your posts, and this one is chock full of them. Or is that the egg-nog talking (or writing)? :D
Of course, it could just be a random glitch. People have these. I once wanted to write "Neverwinger Nights: Hordes of the Underdark" and managed to wrie "Neverwinter Knights: Lords of the Underdark". I had another poster point that out to me, too.
I was staggered. Flummoxed. Flabbergasted.
It's alright. Both the Neverwinter Knight and the Lords of the Underdark forgive you! :D