I'm starting this one and linking from the elven learning thread because I think its kind of an interesting discussion. I'm not knocking what Paizo has done with dwarves . . . honestly, I don't want things to change too much, but I do have some ideas that I would have love to have thrown into the dwarven culture.
Names: One of my favorite concepts that died an ignominious death in the Forgotten Realms was the dwarven naming convention introduced in the Old Grey Boxed Set. In there, dwarves didn't have the Flintstone-esque last names that they have now.
In the Old Grey Boxed Set, dwarves had their names, followed by "son of X," and then "blood of X" if they had a famous relative further back than their own father, and if further distinction was needed, they listed their place of dwelling.
So, for example, you might have Gharve, son of Hardrin, Blood of Merok, of the dwarves of Janderhoff (or something like that). Dwarves that wanted to show disdain for someone wouldn't tell you their lineage, so you would only get a terse "Gharve" if the dwarf was trying to blow you off.
Honestly, I would love to have seen this for dwarves instead of the constant stream of Goldlickers or Adamantinearse or a million other compound names that start to dive into the downright silly (for every relatively respectable name like "Fireforge," you get a . . . sigh . . . Muffinhead, or even a McKnuckles . . . sigh).
Ancestor Worship: I really liked this aspect of the dwarves from Dragon Age, especially with their respect for history and families. Now, if I were to try and use this for Pathfinder, I would probably phrase this a bit more like saintly intervention. Dwarves that want to pray for something will ask an ancestor that is generally acknowledged to be in good standing with their gods.
Only the priests routinely pray directly to the dwarven gods, and even then, they usually preface their prayers with a few imploring words to priests that passed on and are in good standing with the gods.
What gets written down: The only things that dwarves commit to stone are facts. An alchemist or metallurgist that is working on theories might jot down notes on paper, but when he comes up with some proven formulas, they get carved into the walls of their workspace in runes.
Dwarven settlements have huge caverns recording history, but dwarven history that is recorded is very factual. Dwarven bards may tell elaborate stories about King Forgrat killed the red dragon Threxistes and how he buried him under an avalanche and tore his wings off, and all, but in the histories, only what is actually know to have happened is recorded. So the walls recording history would only say "King Forgrat killed the red dragon Threxistes on X date."
Books are only used for theories, fiction, or portable writings (spellbooks, alchemist formula, etc.).
Also, I really loved the detail in Dragonlance that dwarven historians will not record the names of the dishonored, so if someone turned traitor or betrayed his house, his name would never appear in writing.
Music: One of the things that bugged me back in the old Castle Guide for 2nd edition was the comment about dwarves celebrating, commenting that they got drunk and sang very badly. Why? Again, Dragonlance and a really cool detail about how dwarves were actually often very good singers, with deep resonant voices, but that they didn't sing casually.
Dwarves sing when they are working, they sing in battle, and they sing for festivities, but there are specific songs for each situation, and its not done casually. But dwarves that sing usually sing very well. In fact, in cities with mixed populations, churches that have both human and dwarven adherents often have dwarven cantors (for example, temples of Abadar or Torag in non-dwarven cities with a dwarven population).
Drinking: Dwarves are resistant to poisons and intoxicants. They are well know for making strong, high quality alcohol. But getting drunk is disdained in dwarven society. It shows a lack of self-control and a failure to recognize one's own limitations.
Dwarves drink alcohol with nearly every meal, because they often don't have clean water sources. They eat a morning meal and an evening meal, and for mid day, they often drink a very hearty "meal brew" instead of stopping to eat. Strong drink is reserved for after work is done, and even then, strong drink is for pushing one's limits. A dwarf can drink enough to down most humans and elves, but as soon as they begin to feel its effects, they tend to stop.
Dwarves view drinking very potent alcohol as pushing their limits and making themselves stronger, but showing signs of drunken behavior is a sign of weakness.
I think I'll be using this in my campaigns, sir.
too much cool shtuff aboot the dwarves to have cheap copy/pastaLove it, often how I portray them too, but one of the best most concise and unique combination of flavah. U win the internet!
Quite the feat. I hear the last boss is really hard.
|
Dwarven music being all about the workchants and forgechanties and underground drum-signals is very cool. I vaguely recall something like that in the 2nd edition Complete Bard's Handbook, and it was very inspiring.
I like the notion of only facts being permanantly graven in stone, but my own preference is to go the opposite direction and have dwarven writing be more like kennings, or runes with multiple possible interpretations, making even 'factual' recountings subject to multiple interpretations.
One of the funkier variations I've seen was in an MMO called Shadowbane, in which the dwarves were originally forged by the creator god, and no new generations were ever born, being created immortal.
A variation on this might have the only new dwarves 'born' being those crafted by the oldest and wisest of dwarven magical crafters and imbued with life by the power of their creator god, linking their craftsmanship with their continuance as a species. Every dwarf goes on to become as close to a master craftsman as they can, to provide a perfected vessel that their priestly caste can imbue with the spirit of life (called down from their creator-god(dess)), so that they can pass on their name.
Dwarven music being all about the workchants and forgechanties and underground drum-signals is very cool. I vaguely recall something like that in the 2nd edition Complete Bard's Handbook, and it was very inspiring.
Yeah, I think that that idea bounced in from somewhere, whether the Complete Bard's Handbook or the Complete Dwarves Book from 2nd Edition. Oddly, between the older Realms stuff, Dragonlance, and the generic supplements, it seems like there were actually some cool dwarf ideas, but sadly, the loudest "voice" of dwarven flavor seemed to be RAS' "drunken, brawling, silly last name comic relief" dwarves.
I like the notion of only facts being permanantly graven in stone, but my own preference is to go the opposite direction and have dwarven writing be more like kennings, or runes with multiple possible interpretations, making even 'factual' recountings subject to multiple interpretations.
Yeah, I like trying to walk the line between the really stern, hide bound dwarven culture that we've seen in D&D in the past, and more Norse influences.
|
|
Yeah, I think that that idea bounced in from somewhere, whether the Complete Bard's Handbook or the Complete Dwarves Book from 2nd Edition.
The Complete Dwarves Book was freaking incredible. I never cared the slightest bit for dwarves in 1st or 2nd edition (I was all elves, all the time), but that book was amazingly cool and left me with multiple ideas for dwarven characters that I had to play.
Given my love for elves at the time, I was all aflutter for how the upcoming Complete Book of Elves would similarly make elves exponentially cooler, only to be so, so dissapointed...
|
In one of my campaign backgrounds, which unfortunately never really got to see the light of day, Dwarves were in fact blind to wavelengths of light but instead used a natural sonar much like dolphins.
The main effect of this was that dwarven architecture wasn't only impressive in its craftsmanship, but was also acoustically designed to allow better resonance and transmission of sound. This would allow dwarves in their strong holds to be able to effectively see around corners, detect invisible etc.
The penalty was that they had poor range (except in their strongholds) and no colour definition at all, but it did make assaulting a stronghold very difficult.
So, for example, you might have Gharve, son of Hardrin, Blood of Merok, of the dwarves of Janderhoff (or something like that). Dwarves that wanted to show disdain for someone wouldn't tell you their lineage, so you would only get a terse "Gharve" if the dwarf was trying to blow you off.
[...] but in the histories, only what is actually know to have happened is recorded. So the walls recording history would only say "King Forgrat killed the red dragon Threxistes on X date."
I do however reserve the right to use the name Adamantinearse McKnuckles (Blood of Knuckles, King of the Wall Climbers) the next time I feel the need to be far too silly.
Or you want to travel in disguise. Not from your contemporaries, but from history.
Which in turn reminds me of something from Order of the Stick & Discworld. Dwarves wanting to be buried in their ancestral caves.
KnightErrantJR wrote:
Yeah, I think that that idea bounced in from somewhere, whether the Complete Bard's Handbook or the Complete Dwarves Book from 2nd Edition. Oddly, between the older Realms stuff, Dragonlance, and the generic supplements, it seems like there were actually some cool dwarf ideas, but sadly, the loudest "voice" of dwarven flavor seemed to be RAS' "drunken, brawling, silly last name comic relief" dwarves.
Did you even read RAS' books then?
I'll give you that the dwarves loved to drink and brawl, but its not like thats all they did. I mean the dwarves of RAS' books loved singing, they would sing when on the march to pass the time, when drinking, and when working.
They had an almost spiritual connection with crafting, such as when Bruenor created Aegis-fang, where most dwarves would create an item of such skill that they would never surpass it again.
They most certainly revered their ancestors praying to the dwarven gods and always making sure to reclaim their fallen kin in battle to properly bury them later.
Sure you may not like them as a whole but they share many elements with "Classic" dwarves, just with a bit of a spin since using the same s@@$ for everything would be boring.
Ah, 2.Edition dwarves.
Great Memories,
my favorite PC was a Dwarf Fighter
His introduction to another dwarf was (translated from german):
Fjodor Dragonaxe, Son of Arakin the Son of Carakin, from the Blood of Aglor Dragonaxe, from the House of Carrak who fought beside our great King Agamm in the Battle of a thousand axes, from Clan Ironhammer of Donar Caurak in the Giant Run Mountains,
Cavalry-General of Citadel Felbar, Hero of Underduin, Protector of the Silver Temple, Axebrother of Clan Orothin and Clan Gallowglar, carrier of the bronze shild of Clan Warcrown,
at your and your families service, may your Axe be ever sharp and may your beard never stop growing.
To None Dwarves: Fjodor Dragonaxe, from the Stone Mountain
To Everyone he found suspisious: Fjodor - the Dwarf
He rode a Giant-Ram called Firehorn and had a specially designed full-plate with a beard-protector
I miss second edition sometimes :-(
|
In the Scarred Lands, the dwarves buried their dead within the walls and made mortar from their burnt ashes, in part because it bound their spirits to the place in a very real way; it prevented ethereal/earth glide passage into their halls.
Also, every dwarf had their own personal eating utensils, and they were as personal as a modern person's grooming supplies. You don't use someone else's toothbrush, why would you use someone else's fork?
I've always loved the "dwarves singing while they worked" imagery from Tolkien (and likely Germanic/NOrse myth). But I never thought of horns or stringed instruments. Everything is bells and percussion, like gamelan music. Whole forges working in rhythm, bellows, hammers, voices, bells. High ceilinged work houses where prayers were offered to the valiant dead, and the skilled as well. Crimson and gold flashes of light, the glittering of new forged treasures.
And lots of incense. Ventilation is poor and dwarves, well, they ARE hairy humanoids :P
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I always think of dwarves having a strong link to the earth. Thus Dwarves require less air and ties in with the lack of ventilation mentioned above. Their halls may be relatively tight and uncomfortable to others due to the lack of air, light and space.
On the flip side dwarves would eat a lot, feasting being of great importance. Their food would perhaps be focussed upon meat and other "heavy" foods, and might include exotic meats and eggs such as those of underground vermin.
Also I think texture would be of greater importance, colour less, so they may be equipped with dull fabrics with intricate textured patterns. This tactile nature would make dwarves give hearty hugs and be prone to getting into other space.
I think the idea of dwarven women being scarce is perhaps fitting and balance the dwarves long life, limiting the population expansion potential. This would create a more matriarchal society. Bloodline would be traced through the mother, and male dwarves would marry into clans. There might be competition for strong warriors or great crafters to marry into a clan, meaning a dwarf might have to seek fame and favour to win membership in the most prestigious clans.
This would mean female dwarves would have multiple husbands, perhaps with one main partner. Society would dictate they didn't travel far, but they would have great power within the clan.
This would create a number of different often strongly binding male friendships between dwarves, such as those forged between men in the "Wild West" where women could also be scarce. It may also lead to male dwarves wandering away for periods of time after a dispute within their particular bonding group. Dwarves would thus be respectful to other females and while initially suspicious, form strong loyal friendships with their adventuring companions.
AWESOME STUFF!
JOINK and then joink some more!
Hagor
Ideas I Like A Lot:
* Ancestor Worship (This WAS awesome in Dragon Age, as well as the golems.)
* Ashes in the Mortar
* Drinking for lack of fresh water (Makes sense! Alcohol keeps better, too.)
* Naming Conventions (I will be stealing this.)
Things I Don't Like Much:
* Dwarves Sing Well (I don't see them singly poorly or exceptionally well under any circumstances. If they "put ranks in" then sure. Otherwise, meh.)
* Drunk = Weak (I could understand this maybe. But only if dwarves are able to drink in 8 hour shifts before getting smashed.)
* Set In Stone (This is cool, in theory. I could probably get around this one, if there was a set location for things to be recorded that was under constant construction. Just writing it on walls wherever there is space though? Could get messy, fast. Maybe dwarves keep stone tablets?)
I didn't see this in here...:
* Honor in the Court (I had this in mind before ever playing Dragon Age: Origins, but I had always imagined it with more of a Japanese flavor. I prefer BioWare's take much better, though.)
I don't like how certain races are tied to each other through racial traits, like "Defensive Training" or "Hatred." I also don't like the image conjured up by "Greed." Those could be replaced by more generic bonuses, I think.
(An outstanding write-up of dwarven culture!)
+1
If you ever want to turn this into a 5-10 page publishable PDF about dwarves, let me know. I'd be happy to copy edit.
Drunk = Weak
Alcohol use presents huge real-life cultural differences between societies, so probably an issue we'll never all agree on for a game setting either. I would probably add an element to soften the anti-drunkenness ethic just a little, to allow players who want a little drunkenness in their dwarves an escape route. For example, "Except on feat days," "In most dwarven clans," or, "Individuals separated from dwarven society sometimes console themselves with drink."
Honor in the Court
I also view dwarven culture as holding honor as a high virtue, especially as it relates to their ancestors, duty, and keeping one's word. I picture them as being a bit more practical about it than many Japanese interpretations.
I don't like how certain races are tied to each other through racial traits, like "Defensive Training" or "Hatred." I also don't like the image conjured up by "Greed." Those could be replaced by more generic bonuses, I think.
I agree. "Greed" could just get a new name, really.
I find the race vs. race bonuses a bit annoying. I know they're traditions adopted from very early editions of D&D, and before that taken from Tolkien, but they feel very setting specific. Since we're not generally playing Pathfinder in Middle Earth, or even Greyhawk, I think it's time for them to go away.
Hi ho, Hi Ho, Hi ho hi ho.... Tolkien had them playing small harps and things, and singing well :) I liked using Norse Germanic names when making my Dwarves for my campaigns. Sometimes using Danish names from cousins or Norse or Sweedish or German names from relatives :) really added flavor. Snori, Skalli, Ulf etc. (all real names). Use some Old Norse etc. names and make up names that sound as such. Mix and match and have clan names and personal names, family names, and society names that you use when not with family as well as nick names. Tor Hymar Hammarskjold son of Torgar son of Torgi of Clan Igergaard...
You can call me Tor Hammarskjold :) Mom calls me Hymar...
I can see the racial modifiers if you grow up in the clans - train to fight certain things, good with stone, and metals. But not if they grew up away from other clan dwarves :)
I don't like how certain races are tied to each other through racial traits, like "Defensive Training" or "Hatred." I also don't like the image conjured up by "Greed." Those could be replaced by more generic bonuses, I think.
I agree and I have the same problem with the Favored Enemy class ability of the Ranger. It doesn't make sense to me to get bonuses against an entire RACE of sentient individuals who live in many different regions and have their own skills and cultures.
Why would a goblin from region A be the same in combat as a goblin from region B? Or a Human from Israel fights the same as a Human from Namibia?
I can see bonuses against a regional culture or an organization but against a race doesn't make sense unless the race is just incredibly homogenous and everybody takes the same classes and learns the same things.
I agree and I have the same problem with the Favored Enemy class ability of the Ranger. It doesn't make sense to me to get bonuses against an entire RACE of sentient individuals who live in many different regions and have their own skills and cultures.
Why would a goblin from region A be the same in combat as a goblin from region B? Or a Human from Israel fights the same as a Human from Namibia?
Called Game simplicity. By doing it for a whole race, it is easy. For the English goblins, French goblins, Spanish Goblins..... well does no good if you do not have England, France, or Spain in your game.
Also, it makes for a short list, vs 1000+more long list.
I like short, fast, fun, and easy.
Yes, dwarves back in the day were a cool race unto themselves. Complete Book of Dwarves from 2nd Edition was a great sourcebook for serious dwarf campaigns.
Dwarven culture can be just as advanced as elven. They don't have the super longevity of elves but they DO have an extremely long lifespan still several times that of humans and they are industrious, unlike most elves who think they have all the time in the world to do something. So dwarves tend to get a lot done, faster than other races since they usually enjoy good honest work that accomplishes something.
Combine that with their natural xenophobia which reinforces their trust of each other and their lawful nature you get a race that works very will together.
Edit: Also the old FR supplement DWARVES! was a great source of dwarf info too. I think it may have been late 1st, early second edition.
I agree and I have the same problem with the Favored Enemy class ability of the Ranger. It doesn't make sense to me to get bonuses against an entire RACE of sentient individuals who live in many different regions and have their own skills and cultures.
Why would a goblin from region A be the same in combat as a goblin from region B? Or a Human from Israel fights the same as a Human from Namibia?
Called Game simplicity. By doing it for a whole race, it is easy. For the English goblins, French goblins, Spanish Goblins..... well does no good if you do not have England, France, or Spain in your game.
Also, it makes for a short list, vs 1000+more long list.
I like short, fast, fun, and easy.
I prefer regional cultures. My homebrew has cultures that range from representing Aztec to Roman to Japanese and there are more than one race involved in each culture.
Roman is mostly dwarves but includes Humans, and some Halflings and Gnolls from conquered lands.
Aztec is mainly Humans but there is a spattering of Halfling, Elf, Dwarf, and Orc.
I don't really see how it's harder to create regional cultures than racial cultures.
I agree and I have the same problem with the Favored Enemy class ability of the Ranger. It doesn't make sense to me to get bonuses against an entire RACE of sentient individuals who live in many different regions and have their own skills and cultures.
I've always thought of it as a deeper understanding of anatomical structure and bio-chemistry and the like. Sure, they have different ways of acting or fighting, but you don't get AC bonuses, you get attack and damage, and tracking. "Goblins have a waddle to their walk and their feet are roughly X size. These look like Goblin tracks."
Favored enemy never bothered me so much.
But the reason I dislike the dwarf traits for those is: what if there are no giants in the area where your dwarves are located? What if there aren't any orcs? Neither? And why do they have to be "greedy?" None of those traits would exist if all dwarves lived in a secluded mountain range and were mostly monks and druids of the underneath. [shrug] Just a pet peeve. But these things really narrow down what a dwarf "is."
|
KE Jr:
"Music: One of the things that bugged me back in the old Castle Guide for 2nd edition was the comment about dwarves celebrating, commenting that they got drunk and sang very badly. Why? Again, Dragonlance and a really cool detail about how dwarves were actually often very good singers, with deep resonant voices, but that they didn't sing casually.
Dwarves sing when they are working, they sing in battle, and they sing for festivities, but there are specific songs for each situation, and its not done casually. But dwarves that sing usually sing very well. In fact, in cities with mixed populations, churches that have both human and dwarven adherents often have dwarven cantors (for example, temples of Abadar or Torag in non-dwarven cities with a dwarven population)."
As well, go back and read the opening scene where the Dwarves meet Bilbo in The Hobbit. The music, singing, the way it almost magically conjured visions of the Dragon for the little Hobbit... Dwarf Bard seems pretty damned cool, when you think of it.
-Uriel
|
|
KE Jr:
"Music: One of the things that bugged me back in the old Castle Guide for 2nd edition was the comment about dwarves celebrating, commenting that they got drunk and sang very badly. Why? Again, Dragonlance and a really cool detail about how dwarves were actually often very good singers, with deep resonant voices, but that they didn't sing casually.
Dwarves sing when they are working, they sing in battle, and they sing for festivities, but there are specific songs for each situation, and its not done casually. But dwarves that sing usually sing very well. In fact, in cities with mixed populations, churches that have both human and dwarven adherents often have dwarven cantors (for example, temples of Abadar or Torag in non-dwarven cities with a dwarven population)."
As well, go back and read the opening scene where the Dwarves meet Bilbo in The Hobbit. The music, singing, the way it almost magically conjured visions of the Dragon for the little Hobbit... Dwarf Bard seems pretty damned cool, when you think of it.
-Uriel
Dwarven Bards are identical to ZZ Top. I say that with a completely serious face.
I like the pathfinder flavor of Dwarves being well sought after cooks. as a people of simple pleasures, cooking strikes me as a very dwarven art.
In my games...we tend to flavor the dwarves that are active on the surface tend to have Scotish or Norse themes, whilst the subterrainian dwarves tend to have more Russian and east german themes.
I've like the idea's I've seen so far though. I believe it was the Complete Warrior from WotC that implied Samurai cultures were as close as any race ever got to being a dwarf.
|
|
I'm starting this one and linking from the elven learning thread because I think its kind of an interesting discussion. I'm not knocking what Paizo has done with dwarves . . . honestly, I don't want things to change too much, but I do have some ideas that I would have love to have thrown into the dwarven culture.
Names: One of my favorite concepts that died an ignominious death in the Forgotten Realms was the dwarven naming convention introduced in the Old Grey Boxed Set. In there, dwarves didn't have the Flintstone-esque last names that they have now.
In the Old Grey Boxed Set, dwarves had their names, followed by "son of X," and then "blood of X" if they had a famous relative further back than their own father, and if further distinction was needed, they listed their place of dwelling.
So, for example, you might have Gharve, son of Hardrin, Blood of Merok, of the dwarves of Janderhoff (or something like that). Dwarves that wanted to show disdain for someone wouldn't tell you their lineage, so you would only get a terse "Gharve" if the dwarf was trying to blow you off.
Honestly, I would love to have seen this for dwarves instead of the constant stream of Goldlickers or Adamantinearse or a million other compound names that start to dive into the downright silly (for every relatively respectable name like "Fireforge," you get a . . . sigh . . . Muffinhead, or even a McKnuckles . . . sigh).
Ancestor Worship: I really liked this aspect of the dwarves from Dragon Age, especially with their respect for history and families. Now, if I were to try and use this for Pathfinder, I would probably phrase this a bit more like saintly intervention. Dwarves that want to pray for something will ask an ancestor that is generally acknowledged to be in good standing with their gods.
Only the priests routinely pray directly to the dwarven gods, and even then, they usually preface their prayers with a few imploring words to priests that passed on and are in good standing with the...
Hmmm. May take this up to shape a dwarven PC the next time I play one.