Underpowered Spells


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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ciretose wrote:
FatR wrote:
There is no "social half" in RHoD. In the whole adventure I can remember only one example of situation where diplomacy (besides "not being intentionally disruptive a%@~!~&") is required to advance the plot, or can influence the plot at all (meeting with the old giant). Notably, that giant is the only non-villain NPCs from RHoD I can rememeber anything about. The rest are decorations. Interaction with the world is nearly nonexistent as well. PCs are practically expected to save the region because that's what PCs do and then disappear into thin air, because, well, the plot is over. I can't even conceive the reason why anyone might pretend that RHoD is a not a pure hack&slash.

Never played it, so I went and downloaded it.

The list of missions in the intro are as follows

** spoiler omitted **

Which sounds to me like something that if it doesn't have options, was intended to...but I'll read the quest to be sure.

Any quest can become a hack and slash. But few have to be.

You bought it just to examine it for a debate?

Grand Lodge

You wouldn't?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
You wouldn't?

I'm a cheapass of the sort that, if I ever bought modules (which I don't because I GM spontaneously, but anyways...) I'd only buy them when I was specifically planning to run them.


Out of 6 missions you've listed, 5 boil down to stabbing correct faces. Don't remember about reconaissance. If by that the authors meant the opening chapter, when PCs find what baddies are up to, it still mostly (entirely or near-entirely, if we count challenges where mechanics are relevant) consists of stabbing faces.

Liberty's Edge

FatR wrote:
Out of 6 missions you've listed, 5 boil down to stabbing correct faces. Don't remember about reconaissance. If by that the authors meant the opening chapter, when PCs find what baddies are up to, it still mostly (entirely or near-entirely, if we count challenges where mechanics are relevant) consists of stabbing faces.

It isn't the stabbing, but the who,what,where, when and how of the stabbing.

The towns are full of potentially useful NPCs, the module is written with a ton of interaction options and lots of things based on timing and things you find out based on interactions.

It could be hack and slash for a hack and slash group. Any module can, especially with lazy DMs who don't want to have to run NPC characters or keep track of who the party is working with and what resources and connections they made.

But from what I'm reading so far that wasn't the intent of the module. A party that does a lot of talking and interacting could gain a lot of info/allies to help them along the way, and the module is specifically written to encourage this, at least what I've skimmed so far.


ciretose wrote:
CoDzilla wrote:
Six weeks.

Yup.

6 weeks = 42 days.

If your party and DM can't think of anything you can do with 42 days, you honor I rest my case on lack of creativity.

Except that... oh wait... you have to travel a fair bit. And for about half the module, you are too low level to teleport. That means horses, or walking, both of which are slow. So there's at least a week or two right there. And that isn't counting the time you actually spend fighting stuff.

So by all means, waste time screwing around. I'm sure the hobgoblin army will thank you as they burn the town down around your ears before running you through. I'm sure the townspeople will be thrilled you found them so fascinating that you didn't remember to actually do something about that little problem about to come down on them all.

FatR wrote:
There is no "social half" in RHoD. In the whole adventure I can remember only one example of situation where diplomacy (besides "not being intentionally disruptive a%@#*~&") is required to advance the plot, or can influence the plot at all (meeting with the old giant). Notably, that giant is the only non-villain NPCs from RHoD I can rememeber anything about. The rest are decorations. Interaction with the world is nearly nonexistent as well. PCs are practically expected to save the region because that's what PCs do and then disappear into thin air, because, well, the plot is over. I can't even conceive the reason why anyone might pretend that RHoD is a not a pure hack&slash.

The giant only almost counts. After all, they recently gave you a big giant sized item with little apparent value. Which is the equivalent of beating your players senseless with a cluebat, before yelling at the top of your lungs "GIVE HIM THE ITEM!"

And sure enough, doing so gives you a massive bonus.

ciretose wrote:
FatR wrote:
There is no "social half" in RHoD. In the whole adventure I can remember only one example of situation where diplomacy (besides "not being intentionally disruptive a%@~!~&") is required to advance the plot, or can influence the plot at all (meeting with the old giant). Notably, that giant is the only non-villain NPCs from RHoD I can rememeber anything about. The rest are decorations. Interaction with the world is nearly nonexistent as well. PCs are practically expected to save the region because that's what PCs do and then disappear into thin air, because, well, the plot is over. I can't even conceive the reason why anyone might pretend that RHoD is a not a pure hack&slash.

Never played it, so I went and downloaded it.

The list of missions in the intro are as follows

** spoiler omitted **

Which sounds to me like something that if it doesn't have options, was intended to...but I'll read the quest to be sure.

Any quest can become a hack and slash. But few have to be.

In order:

1: Consists of an NPC directing your train to the enemy base, where you stab them all in the face, and get MAP OF PLOT +1.
2: Consists of wandering around and stabbing things in the face.
3: Consists of being attacked by something, stabbing it in the face, and then meeting some elves. None of which are remotely helpful, because even their leader dies in two hits from the normal enemies. Keep in mind that the normal enemies are Warrior 2s, and you're level 6 or 7 by now.
4: Consists of you stumbling upon PLOT TRINKET +1, and assuming you'd actually return it to its owner to get him to leave you alone. Even though you very recently got an item that is very good at killing him. Even though you could easily do just that and gain a full character level on the spot. Poor statblocks do not help.
5: Consists of wandering where the plot railroad takes you... and stabbing fools in the face.
6: Assuming you haven't scried and fried these guys half the adventure ago... oh look. Here's your stabbing implement, THERE'S THEIR FACE. Get to work.

Which just proves, yet again that not only is it only mindless hack and slash, but if you actually think at all you can sequence break that module like a buggy NES game.


Oliver McShade wrote:


Which goes back to saying that only a few meta-magic feats are worth it, like Silent or still.

Correction, i changed my mind, not worth it.... better off learning to shoot a bow.


0gre wrote:

Why does blasting need to be good?

Let the wizards do the controller thing and if you want to blast come over to the alchemists size of things. Problem fixed.

Wizards are already pretty awesome with what they are good at.

Blasting needs to be good because it's what quite a few players are looking for when they build a caster, especially beginning players. That said, blasting doesn't need to be good for everybody! (In fact, if blasting got boosted such that it was good for wizards, they could really blow the power curve!) Rather than changing the spells, I'd love to see a couple of sorcerer bloodlines that grant significant bonuses to blast spells.

details:
Wizard is a pretty advanced class to play, requiring more bookkeeping and management than just about any other class, but they have great breadth available to them as combat and non-combat casters. Let them be the Masters of All Magics and pull a huge variety of situationally brilliant tricks out of their tall pointy hats!

Sorcerer, on the other hand, is a lower bookkeeping lower management class. It has stronger themes built into it both because bloodline has more effects on character build and flavor than school does, and because the lower number of spells known forces a more narrow set of spellcasting. If a few of the sorcerer bloodlines were especially good at blasting, I think they'd cover the demand for blasty-mages quite well.

Imagine a sorcerer bloodline that gains a handful of abilities that add to evocation damage. Perhaps on at 1st level that adds charisma bonus as a static number. (similar to the warmage in 3.5) Then add some uses per day of Empower Spell & Maximize Spell that apply only to evocations that deal damage, but don't increase the spell slot or casting time. (much like having some built-in metamagic rods)

Make the bonus feat list include: Spell Focus:Evocation, Greater Spell Focus:Evocation, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Elemental Focus, Greater Elemental Focus, to make sure enemy saves & SR don't get overwhelming. (Some of those are pretty weak feats, so they're easy to give away as bonus feats. Also, they're better for this character since he'll be using them frequently.)

Anyway, I don't think the problem with blast-mage not being viable is best solved by boosting all the blast spells, which would make wizards too powerful. I think it's best solved by making a class/bloodline/archetype that's good at blasting.

Liberty's Edge

I really want to use Extend Spell. I mean, the ability to have a spell last longer than it normally does? Maybe have a 1-combat spell last 2 combats? That sounds great! For just one spell level? Sold! Where do I buy it?

Unfortunately, it doesn't work as advertised at all. Time between combats is much greater (time-wise) than the combats themselves, at least under most GM's that I've seen. Usually, it's greater by an order of magnitude, sometimes two.

So for every one minute you spend fighting, the GM usually rules you spend 10 minutes stretching, healing, looting, searching, and congratulating each other on a battle well-fought. Sometimes a little more.

So Extend Spell needs to increase duration not by doubling (x2), but by an order of magnitude (x10). That would soo make it worth the cost.

Empowered, Maximized, and even Quickened spells are usually too expensive. There's no way I'll use a meta-magicked 3rd-level spell when a 5th or 6th does the same job better.

The other thing that can be done to make the metamagic system come closer to functionality is the ability to use Heighten Spell such that all Heightened Spells use the DC of which-ever level spell they are cast from. Make the Heightened cost underlap the cost of other metamagic.

Underlapping metamagic costs in general could go a long ways towards fixing metamagic.


Hahaha. Extend is one of the few good metamagics. It doesn't need a buff. If you don't want to waste 10 minutes in post battle stuff then... don't waste 10 minutes in post battle stuff.

Shadow Lodge

Lyrax wrote:
The other thing that can be done to make the metamagic system come closer to functionality is the ability to use Heighten Spell such that all Heightened Spells use the DC of which-ever level spell they are cast from.

I might be misunderstanding what you mean, but Heighten Spells do use the Heightened spells D.C. already. A caster can normally use a higher level slot for lower level spells, but that does not increase the D.C.. Heighten Spell does.

CoDzilla wrote:
Hahaha. Extend is one of the few good metamagics. It doesn't need a buff. If you don't want to waste 10 minutes in post battle stuff then... don't waste 10 minutes in post battle stuff.

A lot of times you don't have a choice as you need to travel or interact with something before another combat begins.


Heighten spell should have been an automatic ability of caster... not a feat. But a Feat Tax never the less, to late now.

Extend is one of the few good ones, for letting you do non-combat stuff, like buffing 1 hour / level, 2 hour/level, or 24 hour spells. Also good on travel spells like fly, overland fly, etc. Extended Water-Breathing is nice.

Silent, Still, and Eschew Materials Feats.... changed my mind, not worth it.


Oliver McShade wrote:

Heighten spell should have been an automatic ability of caster... not a feat. But a Feat Tax never the less, to late now.

This. One thing that helps metamagics count, makes life a little easier on sorcerers, is changing the core spellcasting rule to such that the spell slot level used on the spell IS the spells level. (It also avoids some really cheesy stuff with pearls of power and other items that reference 'spell level')

Dark Archive

CoDzilla wrote:
In RHoD those things don't happen. They don't exist. They can't happen, because the adventure has a maximum time limit of around six weeks or so. Keep in mind this is an adventure you'll gain 5-7 levels in. 6 weeks. And since that's all we're talking about, that's all that matters.

I loled, seriously there is a whole part completely dedicated to roleplaying(1), at least other in which is important(2), other can be resolved without combat as you point out before(3), the players are given several options about what to do, If you didnt chose anything other than mindless combat thats your choice, if you keep saying that those are irrelevant to the plot, I´m tempted to think that for you anything that doesnt translate to mindless combat effects is irrelevant, but even that is not true as your roleplay has effects in the climatic part of the campaign latter(4)

RHoD:

1) the elf village
2)the planing on the defense of Brindol, and of course you can also do other things not covered in the campaign like call for help in the nearby big city, my players went to enlist the help of the dwarfs clans, there are others, like the giant encounter and plenty more, capturing the aranea spy...
3)The lich encounter, my players negociated his help in the final battle instead of fighting him
4)all this sums up victory points in the Brindol siege if you think that if not translated to combat effect is irrelevant.

But seriously all this boils down to if direct damage spells are good or not, and i have provided examples from published campaigns, wich I think that shows the point that they arent as bad as people seem to think (not everyone, I have read, just what I´m saying in some guides, but some people seem to like to make a joke of "evocation is irrelevant lulz!!1!", wich is just a not very well thought simplification.

Dark Archive

FatR wrote:

Out of 6 missions you've listed, 5 boil down to stabbing correct faces. Don't remember about reconaissance. If by that the authors meant the opening chapter, when PCs find what baddies are up to, it still mostly (entirely or near-entirely, if we count challenges where mechanics are relevant) consists of stabbing faces.

In my game there was real roleplaying in all this, I suspect that direct facestabbing as the only/best way to answer to things has a lot more to do with the players involved than with the campaign.

Liberty's Edge

Beckett wrote:
Lyrax wrote:
The other thing that can be done to make the metamagic system come closer to functionality is the ability to use Heighten Spell such that all Heightened Spells use the DC of which-ever level spell they are cast from.
I might be misunderstanding what you mean, but Heighten Spells do use the Heightened spells D.C. already. A caster can normally use a higher level slot for lower level spells, but that does not increase the D.C.. Heighten Spell does.

Yes, true. But most GM's that I've met rule thus:

Heightened Spell allows you to increase the DC by increasing the spell level.
This differs from:
All Heightened Spells use the DC of which-ever level spell they are cast from.

The primary difference? If you meta-magic a Charm Person with Silent, Still, and Extend Spell, it becomes a 4th-level spell with a 1st-level save. Not very good.

Under the first interpretation, Heighten Spell allows you to cast this spell as a 5th-level spell in order to give it a 2nd-level spell save (being that three levels are increases via metamagic feats). Underwhelming in the extreme.

Under the second interpretation, Heighten Spell allows you to cast that same spell as a 4th-level spell with a 4th-level spell save. Much, much better.


ESCORPIO wrote:


In my game there was real roleplaying in all this, I suspect that direct facestabbing as the only/best way to answer to things has a lot more to do with the players involved than with the campaign.

Great for you. Now, what this has to do with RHoD? Facestabbing being both the best and, in most cases, the only way to solve things (as only one enemy boss out of more than half-dozen can even theoretically be talked down and recruiting allies is only worth your time because you gain XP and loot in the process anyway) in RHoD is a fact. That socially-inept characters can blow through it with flying colors, but combat-inept characters will get nowhere is also a fact. That you are tied to the plot rails that assume that the PCs appear from nowhere, help the locals because that's what PCs do, and then disappear into nowhere is also a fact. Even being generous to RHoD, roleplaying fragments are but icing on the combat cake there, and in most of them PCs can just ride along the rails and be totally OK. That you had "real roleplaying", whatever that means (is there even such thing as false roleplaying?) does not change these facts.


ESCORPIO wrote:
CoDzilla wrote:
In RHoD those things don't happen. They don't exist. They can't happen, because the adventure has a maximum time limit of around six weeks or so. Keep in mind this is an adventure you'll gain 5-7 levels in. 6 weeks. And since that's all we're talking about, that's all that matters.

I loled, seriously there is a whole part completely dedicated to roleplaying(1), at least other in which is important(2), other can be resolved without combat as you point out before(3), the players are given several options about what to do, If you didnt chose anything other than mindless combat thats your choice, if you keep saying that those are irrelevant to the plot, I´m tempted to think that for you anything that doesnt translate to mindless combat effects is irrelevant, but even that is not true as your roleplay has effects in the climatic part of the campaign latter(4)

** spoiler omitted **

But seriously all this boils down to if direct damage spells are good or not, and i have provided examples from published campaigns, wich I think that shows the point that they arent as bad as people seem to think (not everyone, I have read, just what I´m saying in some guides, but some people seem to like to make a joke of "evocation is irrelevant lulz!!1!", wich is just a not very well thought simplification.

1: Rather pointless really, since they're so fragile they'll die in two hits from the mooks.

2: Doesn't much matter again.
3: The worst built Lich ever, and even though it is obvious you're supposed to negotiate with him, he lacks the power to actually back it up. So if say... you're a pair of good aligned characters who find the thought of an alliance with a Lich inconceivable, you can just one round him.

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