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I suspect the reason for this is that in these games the enemies tend to come in from flanking (general use, not mechanical flanking) positions opposite the party, where it's impossible to get more than half without catching the whole party as well.
Mostly just trying to figure out where he's regularly doing 150 points damage with fireball. 10d6 averages to 35, maximized it's only 60, maximized and empowered it's 90... that's a 8th/ 9th level spell (forgot how many levels those bump spells). Also to "everyone"? No one saves?
Maybe two of them using quicken, both empowered and maximized? Burning two 8th plus level spell slots?
Just confused here, I know draconic and evokers sorcerers can bump damage a bit but not that much.
I suspect the reason for this is that in these games the enemies tend to come in from flanking (general use, not mechanical flanking) positions opposite the party, where it's impossible to get more than half without catching the whole party as well.
Yup. And/or just generally surrounded by very spread-out enemies.
I'm sure that won't be that whole campaign (and certainly it wouldn't be every campaign I've played), but that's how it's been rolling so far.
Mostly just trying to figure out where he's regularly doing 150 points damage with fireball. 10d6 averages to 35, maximized it's only 60, maximized and empowered it's 90... that's a 8th/ 9th level spell (forgot how many levels those bump spells). Also to "everyone"? No one saves?
To be fair, I don't think he said fireball specifically -- I did as part of a response just to have a AoE to discuss while musing about how the GM of one of my games is very anti-clumping-enemies.
I suspect the reason for this is that in these games the enemies tend to come in from flanking (general use, not mechanical flanking) positions opposite the party, where it's impossible to get more than half without catching the whole party as well.Mostly just trying to figure out where he's regularly doing 150 points damage with fireball. 10d6 averages to 35, maximized it's only 60, maximized and empowered it's 90... that's a 8th/ 9th level spell (forgot how many levels those bump spells). Also to "everyone"? No one saves?
Maybe two of them using quicken, both empowered and maximized? Burning two 8th plus level spell slots?
Just confused here, I know draconic and evokers sorcerers can bump damage a bit but not that much.
Have your 15th-level sorcerer/dragon disciple pick your choice of 3rd-level 10d6 spell (fireball, lightning bolt, or something similar).
Add intensified, empower, and maximize to one. Add intensified and quicken to the other. For a 4th and 6th-level slot, I've just dealt ~242.75 damage to everyone in the area (before defenses).
If he wants to save spell slots for longer lasting power, my player can simply hit the enemy with a maximized spell plus a quickened spell for ~129 damage (before defenses) which only uses two 3rd-level spell slots. In general though my player uses intensify on both spells as well (~216 damage), using up a pair of 4th-level spell slots.
Spell Perfection is EVERY blaster's friend. It's how you build a blaster. Prior to obtaining the feat, you rely on metamagic rods (and sometimes, you continue to use them afterwords too).
Spell Perfection is freaking SCARY regardless you are a blaster or not.
Since APG now in in the PRD, no excuses ;)
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WOW. I just read Spell Perfection for the first time, and HO-LY s#!% that's badass. The single spell limitation helps a lot, but it's still very strong.
Spell Perfection is EVERY blaster's friend. It's how you build a blaster. Prior to that, you use metamagic rods (and sometimes, afterwords too).
+1
+1WOW. I just read Spell Perfection for the first time, and HO-LY s#!% that's badass. The single spell limitation helps a lot, but it's still very strong.
Spell Perfection is EVERY blaster's friend. It's how you build a blaster. Prior to that, you use metamagic rods (and sometimes, afterwords too).
Shouldn't that be a metamagic feat rather than general or at least be on the wizard bonus list?
oh and +1
Add intensified, empower, and maximize to one. Add intensified and quicken to the other. For a 4th and 6th-level slot, I've just dealt ~242.75 damage to everyone in the area (before defenses).
You'll have to tell me what I'm missing because I can't get the math for that to work out.
First up, a 15th level sorcerer/dragon disciple, regardless of how many levels are of each, doesn't have a full caster level. But we'll ignore that for the moment and call it a 15th level caster.
I'm assuming you're casting a spell that does elemental damage matching your draconic bloodline bonus. Both spells are intensified, so for a 15th level caster they're 15 dice and that feat's done with.
First one you're saying is maximized and empowered, so that's:
15d6 Maximized = 90 +
15d6 * 0.5 Empowered = Average 26.25 +
Bloodline Bonus 15
= 131.25
15d6 Second spell = Average 52.5 +
Bloodline Bonus 15 = 67.5
131.25 + 52.5 = 198.75 which is a fair bit short of your number, so I must be missing something.
Add intensified, empower, and maximize to one. Add intensified and quicken to the other. For a 4th and 6th-level slot, I've just dealt ~242.75 damage to everyone in the area (before defenses).You'll have to tell me what I'm missing because I can't get the math for that to work out.
First up, a 15th level sorcerer/dragon disciple, regardless of how many levels are of each, doesn't have a full caster level. But we'll ignore that for the moment and call it a 15th level caster.
I'm assuming you're casting a spell that does elemental damage matching your draconic bloodline bonus. Both spells are intensified, so for a 15th level caster they're 15 dice and that feat's done with.
First one you're saying is maximized and empowered, so that's:
15d6 Maximized = 90 +
15d6 * 0.5 Empowered = Average 26.25 +
Bloodline Bonus 15
= 131.2515d6 Second spell = Average 52.5 +
Bloodline Bonus 15 = 67.5131.25 + 52.5 = 198.75 which is a fair bit short of your number, so I must be missing something.
I'm not following his math either. I'm assuming that he's adding maximize to the empowered bonus but that still comes up short.
Oops. I was thinking 20d6, not 15d6 (I'm accustomed to intensifying cones of cold, not fireballs).
You're right, it's 90, not 120. :P
Add 15 per spell, so 30, for the bloodline bonus, and another 7 (per spell) for being a half-orc and adding your favored class bonus into fire damage. Sorry, I believe I forgot to mention the half-orc bit. I'm not normally awake that early in the morning, much less posting with anything resemble sense.
The missing caster levels are made up with the Magical Knack trait (which you can get with a feat even if your group doesn't use traits).
Does it come up short if you add Maximize and the Bloodline Bonus before empower?
In our group, we DO include such bonuses BEFORE applying metamagic, however, I don't think I did that in the above calculations (which are all kinds of screwed up anyways).
Assuming a 1/2 orc sorcerer 8/dragon disciple 7, the final correct figures should be:
15d6 Maximized = 90 +
15d6 * 0.5 Empowered = Average 26.25 +
Bloodline Bonus 15
Racial Favored Class Bonus 4
= 135.25
15d6 Second spell = Average 52.5 +
Bloodline Bonus 15 = 67.5
Favored Class Bonus 4 = 71.5
135.25 + 71.5 = 207.75.
And all it takes is...
- 1/2 or race
- 15 ranks in Spellcraft (and thus 15th-level minimum)
- Dragon Disciple prestige class keyed to fire
- Intensified Spell
- Magical Knack trait (and/or the Additional Traits feat)
- Maximize Spell
- Quicken Spell
- Spell Perfection
- Spontaneous casting class with good fire blasting spell (likely sorcerer)
See, easy!
And all it takes is...
- 1/2 or race
- 15 ranks in Spellcraft (and thus 15th-level minimum)
- Dragon Disciple prestige class keyed to fire
- Intensified Spell
- Magical Knack trait (and/or the Additional Traits feat)
- Maximize Spell
- Quicken Spell
- Spell Perfection
- Spontaneous casting class with good fire blasting spell (likely sorcerer)See, easy!
Heh, I was about to say, that's a LOT of eggs to throw into the fireball basket just to have a decent blasting trick at a level at which you probably shouldn't see something that isn't immune to fire ever again. :)
^^^ Without all that stuff, blasting can still work well. ^^^
A "Hard" encounter for a 5th level characters is 4 CR 3 opponents. Or 2 CR 5 creatures. ...blah blah blah... 4 ogres... blah bllah...You can do it from 600ft. away, while taking move actions every round. It didn't take you any feats, any class abilities, or anything other then a good Int, and two of 3 3rd level spells.
And then you've used 2 of your highest level spells, which probably means your only two on a routine encounter. And also annoyed your party a bit, because they aren't going to stand there in a fireball radius for two consecutive rounds even if you can get them once. And do tell me how you're making the DC 60 Perception check to see them.
Actually, you still have your school specialization spell, and perhaps a spell from your bonded object. So it is about 2/3 or half of your memorized 3rd level spells. I should have been more clear, this is a APL+2 or Hard encounter, and my point was a wizard basically soloed it with 2 standard actions.
All the party has to do is fall back every round. Obviously they would attempt to be more effective, but for this example, they just need to get out of the way, and maybe finish off 1 wounded ogre.The 600" was basically hyperbole. Considering most folks are lucky to have a 4'x4' battlemat, I would say most encounters would be more in the 120'-or-less range. If this encounter took place in a dungeon, it would probably be a tighter cluster for the fireball. Also, why would I need a perception check to see a bunch of ogres? Almost always they are the type of creature that doesn't make much attempt to stealth.
Heh, I was about to say, that's a LOT of eggs to throw into the fireball basket just to have a decent blasting trick at a level at which you probably shouldn't see something that isn't immune to fire ever again. :)
Nothing a lesser elemental metmagic rod won't fix!
Also, only 7 core monsters at CR 15+ have fire immunity. That's less than half. Even then, there aren't that many big CR monsters to begin with so more often than not I will be facing humanoids with class levels or weaker monsters (which are less and less likely to have immunity to fire).
Nothing a lesser elemental metmagic rod won't fix!
Then the DD and racial bonuses drop out, no?
Nothing a lesser elemental metmagic rod won't fix!
Then the DD and racial bonuses drop out, no?
Still worth it to get past the immunities.
Yeah, there's a ton of potential in the feat. Kind of sad when some of the caster feats are so much more badass than the bulk of the combat feats (imho)
Not with the intention of offend you, but maybe is a feat like Spell Perfection slipped through your attention, could be the case of a Combat feat too.
Moreover, meleers generally took a lot by class features too, in the APG.
No offense taken pal. Yeah, APG gave some cool stuff to melees, but the bigger reason the spell feat slipped past me is that I tend not to look at spell feats that much.
Actually.. it happens to me too. I tend first and foremost to taka e look on combat feats, then general feats, then metamagic, barring specific splats of course.
So I can see it ;)
I've not approved APG yet for my games---largely because of feats like this one (which as Codzilla points out, is way nastier applied to an SOS/SOD spell than a blast...
I think it's about as good on SOS/SOD spells as it is on blast spells. I have a halfling sorcerer who uses it with flesh to stone. She can force two DC 35 saving throws, either one of which will petrify you if you fail. She also blasts through SR like it wasn't even there sometimes.
However, she can only end one creature at a time at the cost of a 6th-level spell slot. The blaster on the other hand (doing ~150 damage each round at least) has just killed a dozen enemies outright in his opening salvo as well as softening up the BBEG for the fighter-types, and he's only used two 3rd or 4th-level spell slots.
A really good spell I find, if you don't mind targeting solo creatures, is enervation. A pair of 4th-level slots gets you a maximized ray and a quickened ray. Not too shabby a debuff for the BBEG. Two or three rounds of that and he's likely dead.
The other thing I find myself wondering about this super cranked out level 15 blaster sorcerer build is:
What does this character's effectiveness look like at even, say, level 14?
It just seems like a big investment in being a one-trick pony that doesn't even get to do that trick for what would be, in my experience, either most or all of the campaign.
(Random aside: Can you even throw extra metamagic feats on a quickened spell as a spontaneous caster without jacking up the casting time?)
The other thing I find myself wondering about this super cranked out level 15 blaster sorcerer build is:
What does this character's effectiveness look like at even, say, level 14?
It just seems like a big investment in being a one-trick pony that doesn't even get to do that trick for what would be, in my experience, either most or all of the campaign.
(Random aside: Can you even throw extra metamagic feats on a quickened spell as a spontaneous caster without jacking up the casting time?)
Lower level characters tend to use metamagic feats normally in conjunction with metamagic rods.
Their lasting power is greatly reduced and you can count on them doing approximately half the amount of the above damage (which is still a LOT!).
I'm just going to quote this. What level is this? 15?
Yep. Only CR 18+ creatures and those few that are immune to flesh to stone tend to give her any problems at all.
Here's the downloadable PDF character sheet of the character if you are interested.
EDIT: Looking at the sheet again, it looks like it's two DC 34s unless she uses heighten spell.
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Just a thought...
Why not allow evocation spells like fireball to target multiple opponents. That way a fireball could still deal 1d6/level, but be capable of doing that damage to several creatures. In the right circumstances ("A nice, tight bomb pattern") it could be an amazing spell.
On a more serious note, casters are great at damaging several opponents, but not that great (still very good) at damaging a single one. But archers and melee types are great at damaging single opponents.
What is the problem again? That casters haven't stolen the role of archers and melee characters? Why do casters need to be better at direct damage then the full BAB classes?
+1
Evocation's linear damage cannot deal with quadratic hit points. Further hampered by creatures needing higher HD to get attack bonuses and HP totals to not be a joke.
Solution: Rework monster stats to HD = CR. Most equal level opponents still won't be taken out except by lucky rolls, but lesser enemies that appear in groups can be fireballed to death like they used to.
+1. Most Evocation spells could be removed from the book
without causing too much loss to the game other than death of a bit of cool imagery.
I guess you're not using evocation spells right. They are a huge help.
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I'm just going to quote this. What level is this? 15?Yep. Only CR 18+ creatures and those few that are immune to flesh to stone tend to give her any problems at all.
Here's the downloadable PDF character sheet of the character if you are interested.
EDIT: Looking at the sheet again, it looks like it's two DC 34s unless she uses heighten spell.
Trying to figure out your build.
You have a 34 Charisma at 15th level. 5 is from a Tome that would cost more than half of your WBL. 6 is from a +6 headband for 36k, and then rest 3 you would have gotten at 4th, 8th, and 12th level.
You can't take spell perfection until 15th level, so you just took it as your 15th level feat, so that is fine.
Things that are immune to petrification include Angels, Archons, Azata, Constructs (immune to fort saves), Undead (immune to fort saves), Elementals (not made of flesh), Oozes (not flesh), some outsiders, Plants...
And of course it is single target, medium range.
Not to say this isn't an outstanding ability, just pointing out that you are way over WBL with the Tome.
I agree that this may be something in the Advanced Players Guide, along with Persistent spell, that they may want to rethink and errata as the combination is much more powerful than I believe they intended.
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You know what spell is really underpowered? Jump. I have never seen any wizard memorize this spell, nor any sorcerer take it. I have rarely even seen a scroll of it, and I've never used a scroll of Jump. Not ever.
At low levels, it's a crappy bonus, and my few spells are best used on something else. At higher levels, the bonus gets nicer, but then I can just cast Fly on somebody. Why not do that?
People have mentioned Polar Ray as being lame, but I think Polar Ray is fine because it's a ray attack instead of a save. When there's a single target who's low on HP, a polar ray is a scary, scary thing. Plus, a successful polar ray typically lowers dex... which lowers touch AC... which makes all your rays more likely to hit. Sure, the damage isn't all that great. But it uses a variable your caster controls (missile to-hit) instead of one your caster does not control (opponent save DC).
I would have say Circle of Death is the worst spell, but then I remembered Undeath to Death.
And Jump is up there too.
Jump's problem is that expeditious retreat gives bigger bonuses at low levels, in addition to the more useful movement rate.
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Yeah, Expeditious Retreat makes Jump even more useless.
Another other spell that's gotten pretty irrelevant is Acid Arrow. Back in the days of low HP, it was a credible threat. Back in the days of "damage automatically causes your caster to lose the spell", it was a big threat. Now, it's an annoyance. And it's not much better on a caster than it is on a wand.
And as a wand, you're probably better off with scorching ray, with the only exception of creatures with very high spell resistance or immunity.
Acid arrow is kinda nice because it can damage golems directly, but it even fails at this when fighting a clay golem.
I miss the Faerie Fire having a +2 to hit. With a 5 foot radius (10 foot diameter), it was the Druids version of Bless.
Now it is still good to use again some rogue or wizards... IF you perpaired the spell, and .... IF you know your fighting invisible creatures. Most of the time, you do not know this ahead of time, and there for do not perpair this spell anymore.
Even a +1 to hit, would give life back to the spell. Giving this druid spell a return to the spell list of common spells used.
The better druid players I've seen (which would not include me) always pack Faerie Fire from the midlevels on. Being able to nuke concealment, invisibility, and stealth with no saving throw and no SR from long range is huge.
The better druid players I've seen (which would not include me) always pack Faerie Fire from the midlevels on. Being able to nuke concealment, invisibility, and stealth with no saving throw and no SR from long range is huge.
Faerie Fire : Spell Resistance: YES
So you do have to beat the creatures Spell Resistance. Also, a 10 foot diameter (5 foot radius) burst, ... to hit a invisible creature, still sounds very hard to do, if you do not know were the creature is.
That's a pretty small AoE to try to accurately pinpoint a concealed/invisible enemy if you don't already have some other way to find them...
True. It's harder for a PF druid because their more limited Wildshape doesn't make it trivial to have blindsight to a terrific range. The 3.5 druid packed FF to illuminate enemies for their merely mortal party members.
Now you'd need the extra step of summoning something with blindsight/sense first.
(And I was wrong about the SR. Still! Try to find a way to nuke concealment for most any other class.)
(And I was wrong about the SR. Still! Try to find a way to nuke concealment for most any other class.)
Wizard/Sorcerer = See Invisibility 2nd level = (duration 10 min per level) Range: Ling of Sight (No spell resistance).
Bard = See invisibility 3rd level = See above.
Cleric = Invisibility Purge 3rd level = (duration 1 min per level), Range Self (5 foot radius per level = dispel invisibility).
..............
Wizards, Sorcerer, bards = Have the best form. In that it lets you see invisibility. The creature gets no Spell Resistance since the spell is not on them. The duration is great, by the time you get the spell at 5th level (at 6th it is 1 hour or 2 hours if extended). Can be cast on others. Every high level adventure should have a potion or wand of See invisibility.
Cleric = Duration is short at 1 min per level. But Range not bad, and anything in range becomes visible for everyone to see. Great spell to have around, for protecting your group vs Invisible Melee. Range caster are still a problem tho.
Druid = Duration is short at 1 min per level. It is a small range AOE that can dispel the invisible (if it hits). The problem is that hitting a target that is invisible that You the caster can not see, is hard to do; Add in the fact that you are doing this at range... even a lot harder to do with range penalty for invisible..........( Nice spell, but i still wish it had at least a +1 to hit target, so you could use this during normal combat, vs visible target, to justify memorizing the spell and using it at low levels)