Do feats such as Spell Focus or Elemental Focus affect a Sorcerer's Spell-Like Abilities from their Bloodlines?

[Bofdm]

I started playing a Water Elemental bloodline sorcerer in a Legacy of Fire game, who has both Spell Focus (Evocation) and Elemental Focus (Cold) so exploding things he does well.

He is currently 7th level and while looking at the 9th level bloodline ability coming up of Elemental Blast, which is a spell-like ability.

From the PRD
Elemental Blast (Sp): At 9th level, you can unleash a blast of elemental power once per day. This 20-foot-radius burst does 1d6 points of damage of your energy type per sorcerer level. Those caught in the area of your blast receive a Reflex save for half damage. Creatures that fail their saves gain vulnerability to your energy type until the end of your next turn. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. At 9th level, you can use this ability once per day. At 17th level, you can use this ability twice per day. At 20th level, you can use this ability three times per day. This power has a range of 60 feet.

On page 221 of the PFRPG Core Book it describes Spell-Like Abilities as

"Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

Some creatures actually cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. Some creatures have both spell-like abilities and actual spellcasting power."

And again in the glossary
"Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled and counterspelled as normal."

So would feats such as Spell Focus Evocation or Elemental Focus affect a Sorcerer spell-like ability from their bloodline, or are those feats more specifically related to the monster feats in the bestiary? There are certainly feats such as Quicken Spell-Like Ability or Empower Spell-Like Ability...but I can't find any other precedent for the situation.

Thoughts?

[Gilfalas]

You would need to use the SLA feats to affect actual SLA. To increase the save DC you would want to use Ability Focus for the specific SLA in question.

While SLA's are very much like spells in almost all ways, they are not actually spells and don't act like them for feat purposes in the vast majority of rules. Hence why there is even an SLA category instead of just giving creatures actual spellcasting.

[Mike Dowd]

Gilfalas wrote:

You would need to use the SLA feats to affect actual SLA. To increase the save DC you would want to use Ability Focus for the specific SLA in question.

While SLA's are very much like spells in almost all ways, they are not actually spells and don't act like them for feat purposes in the vast majority of rules. Hence why there is even an SLA category instead of just giving creatures actual spellcasting.

The question here now becomes: Is a Sorcerer's Arcana power (such as from Rime Blooded) considered a Special Attack? If so, then even Ability Focus won't increase the save DC.

This brings us back to a general question -- would Traits, such as Irrisen Ice Mage (+1 DC to cold spells)and feats like Elemental Focus [Cold] (+1 DC to cold spells) modify the DC to save vs. the Arcana part of the Rime Blooded bloodline (Save vs. DC 10 + spell level + CHA mod or be slowed for 1 round).
My gut reaction is to say yes.

[Ravingdork]

I'm sure you can use such feats with spell-like abilities.

Game developers have even stated you can use metamagic feats in certain instances (and not the ones in the Bestiary).

[Fozbek]

Gilfalas wrote:

You would need to use the SLA feats to affect actual SLA. To increase the save DC you would want to use Ability Focus for the specific SLA in question.

While SLA's are very much like spells in almost all ways, they are not actually spells and don't act like them for feat purposes in the vast majority of rules. Hence why there is even an SLA category instead of just giving creatures actual spellcasting.

Not true. Spell-like abilities that duplicate spells function with feats, class abilities, and magical items that would affect the spells they duplicate. For example, Augment Summoning works with the Summoner's summon monster class ability.

The bloodline abilities (as well as revelations, hexes, domain abilities, etc) won't work with most such feats, though, because they do not duplicate spells.

[Robert Young]

I don't think Spell Focus helps you though. Those spell-like abilities lack a school.

[Fozbek]

Robert Young wrote:

I don't think Spell Focus helps you though. Those spell-like abilities lack a school.

The bloodline ones do, yes, mostly. Some of them, such as the Boreal Sorcerer's later ones (blizzard and ... snow shroud? I forget the one that mimics fire shield), do mimic spells and thus do have schools.

The abilities such as the first level 3+cha/day nukes lack schools and descriptors and thus wouldn't be affected by pretty much any feat that isn't specifically for SLAs.

[wraithstrike]

Robert Young wrote:

I don't think Spell Focus helps you though. Those spell-like abilities lack a school.

You are correct, but the reason is not because they don't have schools. It is because they are not spells. If you cast detect magic they would show an aura just like a spell would.

This might change if Paizo says spell affecting feats also affect SLA's, but so far that is not a general rule.

[Fozbek]

wraithstrike wrote:

If you cast detect magic they would show an aura just like a spell would.

They would show an aura, but it wouldn't have any school (again, unless the SLA actually says "this works as XYZ spell"). The only information that the aura would reveal is the strength of the magic, and even that's undefined in most cases.

To reiterate:

Spell-Like Abilities that mimic spells -- in other words, exactly duplicate spells (like a Paladin's detect evil ability) or act like a spell with some changes (like a Boreal Sorcerer's blizzard bloodline ability) -- function with feats such as Spell Focus, Augment Summoning, and so on that key off of spells with a particular quality, assuming the mimed spell has that quality. This is because we are specifically told to treat the SLA as if it were the spell.

SLAs cannot be used with metamagic feats because SLAs do not occupy spell slots and thus you cannot change their spell slot.

SLAs that do not mimic spells won't work with the vast majority of feats because the vast majority of feats key off specific aspects of spells, such as school, that non-spell SLAs do not have.

[Ravingdork]

Found this so far. (Pertinent section shown below.)

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

There is a distinction here, and it's subtle, but important. When you add a metamagic feat to a spell-like ability, you end up having to use a spell-like slot one or more levels higher. Since there is no such thing as a spell-like slot, you can't use your metamagic enhanced spell-like ability. (If you add metamagic feats with a +0 level modifier from some other source, they'd work fine with spell-like abilities).

Augment Summoning, however, along with Spell Focus, Spell Penetration and the greater versions of same, has no need for a spell-like slot to function. Thus they work just fine with spell-like abilities in addition to spells.

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

Enkili wrote:

This of course also brings up the issue of metamagic rods and spell-like abilities. Also if spell focus and ability focus can stack for a spell-like you can get some fairly nasty DCs.

I would absolutely allow metamagic rods to work with spell-like abilities. It's not unbalancing in any way, and in my opinion matches the RAW.

As for Ability Focus and Spell Focus, there are two potential answers. The basic stacking rules state that two bonuses must both have different types (or no type) AND be from different sources to stack. One could argue that "Feats" are one source, even different feats. Under that interpretation, Spell Focus and Ability focus do not stack. It's a weak interpretation, however, as that would mean Acrobatic and Skill Focus (Acrobatics) don't stack, which doesn't match how I have seen the rules in use.

The other answer is, yes, since Spell Focus applies to an entire school, and Ability focus applies to a single attack, they do stack, and intentionally so, to allow monsters (who rarely get ability-enhancing magic items) to boost DCs to the same degree as PCs, if they decide to dedicate enough feats to it.

Of course, Ability Focus applies only to Special Attacks. Those are usually Su or Ex. Are there any examples of spell-like abilites listed as special attacks? I'm willing to beleive they exist, but none come to mind off the top of my head.

Currently still looking for more info from other game developers on the forums.

EDIT: I have searched EVERY post ever made by James Jacobs and Jason Bulmahn for the terms "metamagic" and "spell-like" but did not come up with anything seemingly pertinent.

So I've posted the following into the "Ask James Jacobs All Your Questions" Here thread.

Ravingdork wrote:

James, can you apply feats like Spell Focus to spell-like abilities since they are "like spells in every way" except where specifically noted?

What about feats like augment summoning to a summoner's spell-like ability to summon monsters?

What about applying normal metamagic feats to spell-like abilities in specific situations (such as merciful spell, which doesn't change spell slot, thus the fact that spell-like abilities not having spell slots is a non-issue)?

If the answer is yes to the first and/or third question, how does one treat spell-like abilities that seemingly don't have schools of magic tied to them, such as many of the 1st-level sorcerer bloodline abilities? What kind of aura do they radiate in regards to detect magic?

Can a person take the Ability Focus feat in regards to upping the DC of a single spell-like ability?

Please assume each of the above questions end in "why or why not?".

I've been coming across debates involving these questions time and time again for 2 years. I thought maybe you could help close some of them.

Thank you again for your time.

[Argus The Slayer]

I am cross-posting James Jacobs' answer to RavingDork's question, to save people fro having to search that other thread:

James Jacobs wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

James, can you apply feats like Spell Focus to spell-like abilities since they are "like spells in every way" except where specifically noted?

Nope. Spell focus applies to spells. If you want to adjust the save DC of a spell-like ability, you have to take Ability Focus (from the Bestairy) for that specific spell-like ability.

Ravingdork wrote:

What about feats like augment summoning to a summoner's spell-like ability to summon monsters?

Augment summoning only affects spells. Not a monster's special summon ability.

Ravingdork wrote:

What about applying normal metamagic feats to spell-like abilities in specific situations (such as merciful spell, which doesn't change spell slot, thus the fact that spell-like abilities not having spell slots is a non-issue)?

Nope; since metamagic feats alter effective spell level, there's no real metric to translate that into spell-like abilities. If you want to adjust a spell-like ability, you need to take a feat designed specifically for that, such as Quicken Spell-Like Ability (from the Bestiary).

Ravingdork wrote:

If the answer is yes to the first and/or third question, how does one treat spell-like abilities that seemingly don't have schools of magic tied to them, such as many of the 1st-level sorcerer bloodline abilities? What kind of aura do they radiate in regards to detect magic?

One doesn't; the answer was no.

Ravingdork wrote:

Can a person take the Ability Focus feat in regards to upping the DC of a single spell-like ability?

Yes.

Ravingdork wrote:

I've been coming across debates involving these questions time and time again for 2 years. I thought maybe you could help close some of them.

Not sure if one more opinion has the power to end debates that have raged for two years, but hopefully this helped.

[Oxlar]

What about something like the draconic bloodline that gives you +1 damage to all spells of a certain element type? If you get +1 damage to all fire spells would that apply to sorcerer spell like abilities like an elemental ray that you can get at 1st level?

[Fozbek]

The Orc bloodline would work with elemental ray, but the Draconic or Primal Elemental bloodlines will not. The reason is because of two details:

First, elemental ray doesn't have any descriptors. In other words, even though it may do fire damage, it is not technically a fire-descriptor spell.

Second, Draconic and Primal Elemental bloodlines specify that they only boost the damage of spells with an energy descriptor matching your bloodline choice.

Because elemental ray doesn't have any descriptors, any ability that requires a specific descriptor will not work. The Orc bloodline, however, boosts all spell damage, and thus it would work.

On the other hand, a bloodline ability such as Boreal's snow shroud, which duplicates a spell (fire shield in this case) inherits that spell's descriptors, and thus any abilities that key off those descriptors would affect them.

[Oxlar]

So even though its a spell like ability and the orc bloodline says 'spell', it will still add to it?

[Fozbek]

Spell-like abilities function as if they were spells with a handful of specific exceptions. None of the listed exceptions says "doesn't work with feats or abilities that apply to spells".

[Brennan Ashby]

Spell-Like Abilities wrote:

In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

So I would say YES, if it functions like a spell, then at least feats and abilities like Elemental Focus would apply. Unless the spell-like ability states what school of magic it is from, I don't think Spell Focus should apply.

Fozbek wrote:

The Orc bloodline would work with elemental ray, but the Draconic or Primal Elemental bloodlines will not. The reason is because of two details:

First, elemental ray doesn't have any descriptors. In other words, even though it may do fire damage, it is not technically a fire-descriptor spell.

Second, Draconic and Primal Elemental bloodlines specify that they only boost the damage of spells with an energy descriptor matching your bloodline choice.

Because elemental ray doesn't have any descriptors, any ability that requires a specific descriptor will not work. The Orc bloodline, however, boosts all spell damage, and thus it would work.

On the other hand, a bloodline ability such as Boreal's snow shroud, which duplicates a spell (fire shield in this case) inherits that spell's descriptors, and thus any abilities that key off those descriptors would affect them.

I would disagree. If a spell-like ability deals energy damage, then it would have to have that energy descriptor, because spell-like abilities function just like a spell.

If Elemental Ray deals fire damage, and is a spell-like ability, then it functions just like a spell with the Fire descriptor; a Fire Spell-like ability.

[Fozbek]

Brennan Ashby wrote:

I would disagree. If a spell-like ability deals energy damage, then it would have to have that energy descriptor, because spell-like abilities function just like a spell.

Ah, but there's no rule that says "a spell that deals fire damage automatically has the [fire] descriptor".

[hogarth]

To exapnd on previous comments, there are a number of questions along the lines of "Can I use X on an ability that's mostly like a spell if it says I can use X on a spell?" in the FAQ. I think the answer in every case is "No". Take that with a grain of salt, of course.

E.g.:
Can I use a metamagic feat to alter a spell-like ability?
Can I use a metamagic rod to alter a spell-like ability?
Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells, bloodline abilities, and so on?
Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?

[Fozbek]

All of the "No"s there are consistent with what I have said.

You can't use metamagic on SLAs because SLAs do not have spell slots to alter.
The potion/scroll/staff/wand question has nothing to do with SLAs.
SLAs have nothing to do with spell lists, so it makes sense that SLAs don't count as being on your spell list.

[hogarth]

Fozbek wrote:

The potion/scroll/staff/wand question has nothing to do with SLAs.

Yes and no. Certainly scrolls are not SLAs and vice versa, but they both have boilerplate that says "otherwise this works like casting a spell". But when you take it a step further and say "Does it really work like casting a spell for purposes of X, Y, and Z?", the trend is to say "no".

(IMO, YMMV, etc.)

[Oxlar]

But I'm not talking about meta magic feats. I'm talking about other class abilities/bloodline bonuses/or domain bonuses. I understand that meta magic feats have spell level altering side effects and don't mesh, and that there is even a feat for those instead. But my concerns are with a different aspect of modification.