How many pages?
How many creatures listed?
How much would it cost?
Who would be making them ?
I keep seeing DM say you need knowledge checks to know about monsters. But even as Hobbies, we (players and DM) both buy Monster Manuals up like crazy.
So, Adventures who battle creatures for a living, would go research monsters to learn about them. In large citys, would not the Adventures guild, Mage guild, Zoology guild, etc have books, on creatures. Would not adventure want to buy monster books and read up on as many creatures as possible. Just wondering were, how, who, and when one would find these books.
Politically Correct Bestiary? Shutter
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Traditionally that would be handled as a Masterwork Tool for each of the knowledge types. So you could create say a Masterwork Tool that gives a +2 bonus on Knowledge: Arcana checks and another that gives a +2 to Knowledge: The Planes, plus you can give them creative names to boot! They would run you about 50gp a book and you'd have to have it on hand to consult to get the bonus, which might be hard when the thing with the sharp claws and pointy fangs is trying to eat you.
Actually going out and studying those topics of monsters would actually be represented by your ranks in those knowledge skills. So that mechanic is already in place.
So 50 gold a book.
How many pages.. 50, with 25 pages of description and 25 page of line drawing of creature or noted body parts.
Would having the book let you make a knowledge check on the creatures listed in the book, while untrained. ??
So if i do not have any Knowledge(religion), but i have a book on Undead. Could i make a knowledge check on Vampires, Zombies, Mummy's, etc... that are listed in the book?
So if i do not have any Knowledge(religion), but i have a book on Undead. Could i make a knowledge check on Vampires, Zombies, Mummy's, etc... that are listed in the book?
As DM, it's obviously your call, but I'd argue that you would need at least one rank of Knowledge to be able to use the book. My reasoning would be that if you never put any ranks into any Knowledge skill, you've probably never picked up a book in your life and would have no clue how to navigate a technical book like this for valid information. However, with one rank in a Knowledge skill would mean you've spent some time learning in one manner or another. You could be strict and say that they must have 1 rank in the specific field the book addresses, but I might be a bit more forgiving than that and say that one rank in any Knowledge field is good enough.
Greg
Books especially in a pre-Gutenberg world would be insanely expensive. They're generally individually made, hand colored and illuminated. A Bestiary could represent quite literally months of work per copy.
So like, 30 gold?
Quite frankly, I'd price it on the level of a minor artifact in a world like Greyhawk and Golarion, a bit less on the Forgotten Realms, and possibly a good deal cheaper on Eberron where they just might be past Gutenberg-level printing technology.
You realize a 100 page book filled with magic spells is only worth like 5000gp right?
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I think you could say a PC with a Bestiary could take 20 on any Knowledge: Monster check or have a +10 bonus to any Knowledge: Monster check.
So, what would an item like that cost?....
6 different Knowledge types that allow you to pass your checks almost without fail....
48,000 gp (8K per Knowledge)
LOL
Book of Spells 5000 gold ... lol... and everyone wants to make a Bestiary book a minor relic, every person can not read or write, etc etc etc.
While books were not common like they are today, there were books. Lots of books, and many libraries. Yes, they were for the Rich. But we are not talking about "" Holy "" manuscripts leafed in gold (which is were the spell book idea came from), we are talking about Travel Journal guides, guild guides, etc
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page 16, PF phb : Intelligence = "The number of bonus language your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3"
Not everyone campaign world is stuck in the Dark Ages.
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page 158, PF phb
A Blank wizard Spell book (100 pages) cost 15 gold and weight 3 pounds. To start off with.
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Bestiary does not require any special inks, rare components, or etc.
I was hopping for realistic values. In a world filled with Clerics, Bards, Wizards, or Experts.
Books especially in a pre-Gutenberg world would be insanely expensive. They're generally individually made, hand colored and illuminated. A Bestiary could represent quite literally months of work per copyHowever, we're talking about a fantasy world where there are spells like amanuensis that copy pages of script for the cost of a cantrip.
With magic taking the place of technology, the cost of books would be significantly lower, though certainly not to the level of pulp novels. While there would certainly still exist a premium market for hand-scribed and hand-illuminated books, there would also be a market for magically-reproduced text-only versions ... and they'd be relatively "inexpensive".
R.
Ah humm..... WERE DO I FIND THAT SPELL AT ... ??
I want to start a Cultural Revolution. Books, Schools, PC Class training for commoners, and to get out of the bloody Dark ages.
I believe Golarion has printing presses, as I have seen them in the Campaign Setting book.
How many pages?
How many creatures listed?
How much would it cost?
Who would be making them ?I keep seeing DM say you need knowledge checks to know about monsters. But even as Hobbies, we (players and DM) both buy Monster Manuals up like crazy.
So, Adventures who battle creatures for a living, would go research monsters to learn about them. In large citys, would not the Adventures guild, Mage guild, Zoology guild, etc have books, on creatures. Would not adventure want to buy monster books and read up on as many creatures as possible. Just wondering were, how, who, and when one would find these books.
I would tend to agree that some adventurers would find the knowledge interesting and necessary.
If I were to offer one as an item, this is what it would be:
Bestiary
This heavy, leather-bound tome has been copied from an original by a scribe and hand-illuminated. It contains thorough knowledge of the natural world, but would take some time to read.
Craft DC: Knowledge (Nature) DC 25
Material Cost: 50 gp
Craft time: One week
Any character that has read this tome recieves a permanent +2 circumstance bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks made to identify a monster. Reading the tome takes 48 hours over no less than 6 days.
Cost: 1000 gp
A "reference sheet" version could also be made available, in theory, that would only give the bonus when you have read over it that day, thus requiring you to keep it in your possession.
Ya found it " AMANUENSIS ", one step closer to getting out of the Dark-Ages.
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Bestiary
This heavy, leather-bound tome has been copied from an original by a scribe and hand-illuminated. It contains thorough knowledge of the natural world, but would take some time to read.
Craft DC: Knowledge (Nature) DC 25
Material Cost: 50 gp
Craft time: One week
Any character that has read this tome recieves a permanent +2 circumstance bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks made to identify a monster. Reading the tome takes 48 hours over no less than 6 days.
Cost: 1000 gp
Let's see...would I rather drop 1000 gold on a Cloak of Resistence, to give myself a +1 to all my saves, or on a Bestiary, so my Knowledge: nature check goes up by 2...
I like your idea of it, but the cost, I think, is too high.
Let's see...would I rather drop 1000 gold on a Cloak of Resistence, to give myself a +1 to all my saves, or on a Bestiary, so my Knowledge: nature check goes up by 2...I like your idea of it, but the cost, I think, is too high.
Yeh, you're probably right. I just tossed it together on the spot.
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I dunno what Id say would be a better cost though. I think the issue is that the bonus it gives is effectively half of what some feats give you (+2 to two seperate skills. They did in 3.5 anyway, havent bothered to see if they are any different in PF), so something like this shouldnt costa whole lot, but it shouldnt be cheap either, as it would take alot of effort to have learned all the information in order to pen the book.
Id say 500 might be good, though Im not sure.
Another question: When you statted it, the 48 hours over no less than 6 days...do those days need to be sequential, or were you imagining someone could do a bit, whenever they have downtime?
I might try implementing something like this into the game Im getting ready to start, though I think for creatures that need Know: Religion or Planes ought to be more expensive of a book than Nature is.
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So I'd say 100gp is fine for Golrion, possibly less since that one is quite religiously significant...
Id say 500 might be good, though Im not sure.
Another question: When you statted it, the 48 hours over no less than 6 days...do those days need to be sequential, or were you imagining someone could do a bit, whenever they have downtime?
Any time during downtime. Take a look at the tomes and manuals for reference.
I might try implementing something like this into the game Im getting ready to start, though I think for creatures that need Know: Religion or Planes ought to be more expensive of a book than Nature is.
I would tend to agree.
Just a bit of perspective.An original copy of John Audobon's "Books of America" recently auctioned for over 7 million lbs sterling.
While it may be hard for some folks to accept, magical spellbooks are not the only form of valuable knowledge. Think about what it would cost you to ask a sage a few facts about jut ONE monster. Unlike the players, characters in an average D+D world don't have copies of the rulebooks in their backpacks to reference things.
Just a bit of perspective.
-In the game world we are playing in, a 100 page book filled with magic spells is worth 5000gp.-Most "characters" are "NPC" peons who earn a silver a week.
-Anyone with a single rank in a single Knowledge skill can know everything about any given monster related to that skill by thinking really hard
I am not underestimating anything. You are failing to differentiate the in game world from the historic real world in a corresponding time period.
An original copy of John Audobon's "Books of America" recently auctioned for over 7 million lbs sterling.
That maybe true... but just because it sold for that amount today has more to do with the Rarity of the book.
On that PBS Austion show, you see quilts, desks, paintings, rugs, letters, etc.... being Sold for almost Unrealistic prices, not do to the cost of making the item, but due to its Rarity and Who made the item. Rich people have money to burn, and this cause rare items to be jacked up in price.
Audubon spent $115,000 over the course of 12 years putting the book together, and 200 copies were printed in the UK in 1838.
True, but that amount listed was what it cost for 12 years of traveling around the world, taking notes, and doing fine drawings.
Once his books were published, there were other who did rewrites, and copied some of the pictures with minor changes, and then made and sold copies.
One last thing to remember is that Audubon books are Masterwork Quantity
. Not all books were done with hand draw pictures of supper fine detail, and inked in color to perfectly match what the real birds color was.
While some "works of art" were done, and do cost a lot of money.
You also had Roman solders writing out grocery lists, about what to get when they went to the market.
PS= Hold onto your grocery lists, after 2000 years, it is called a Collectible, worth Thousands.
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I realize you've never said you play in Golarion, so maybe my thoughts won't be helpful. Anyway:
This sort of idea reminds me of the Pathfinder Chronicles for the Pathfinder Society. I don't think a Bestiary is too far from the maps, descriptions of tombs/dungeons/ruins that Pathfinders create after one of their missions. Looking in Seekers of Secrets, some volumes of the Chronicles are so popular they "can be found in markets throughout the continent." So in Golarion, at least, it's built in for books to be available. On the other hand, some of these books are so valuable, sets can be sold for thousands of gold.
So for a Bestiary, I think the cost would partly depend on how rare the information is. Making this actually useful enough to be worth the cost for your players, however, is a totally different matter, and one I can't talk much about.
In short, I think a lot of the argument about how available books should be really depends on what kind of world you campaign in. In one like Golarion, I think the idea is reasonable.
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I start with the artisan’s tools masterwork which gives a +2 circumstance bonus to craft checks to start with. It is less then the Prophecies of Kalistrade at 75 gp, and more then a blank spell book at 15 gp. A musical instrument is 100 gp for master work.
So a +2 to one skill for 55 gp. However we are looking for a +2 for several skills.
• Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
• Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
• Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
• Nature (animals, fey, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
• Planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, planar magic)
• Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
However it is only making use of parts of each of these skills. So say ¼ of each skill. 55/4 = 13.75 gp x skills = 82.5 GP lets just round that up to 85 for ease of numbers and costs.
So the Bestiary of the inner sea region is 85 gp and gives you a +2 circumstance bonus to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities.
In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster's CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster's CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster's CR, or more.
A successful check allows you to acquire a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you understand another piece of useful information.
So a 100 page book, say on Undead, would cost about 100-200 gold, and give a +2 circumstance bonus to identify undead.
Would the book also let you make an Untrained check on Undead, if one spent 1d4 hours referencing to book, after encountering the undead creature. ((provided said creature was listed in book)).