Everyone seems to think planar and epic concepts are prerequisite of each other. I'd like to see a module (or even an AP) where the characters start at level one as residents of a planar city (Planescape may be out of the question, but I'm not picky). I'd buy that and all the supplementary products.
I don't hate epic campaigns (quite the contrary), but the mechanics should not appear in a book by themselves; maybe in an Unearthed Arcana equivalent with other alternative rules. I think the mechanics would fit into such a book while not taking up an entire core product slot.
Planar hardcover ? Yes, very much. Epic rules ? Go die in a ditch, aberration.
And the subset of 'a bunch of people [who] say "I don't/won't play epic"' ... those who think that nobody should use epic rules :)
Everyone seems to think planar and epic concepts are prerequisite of each other. I'd like to see a module (or even an AP) where the characters start at level one as residents of a planar city (Planescape may be out of the question, but I'm not picky). I'd buy that and all the supplementary products.
Ditto :)
It's easy to run epic games on the planes, but by no means are you restricted to running the planes at high level. It's just easier to survive on certain utterly hostile planes at higher levels. So long as the campaign impresses upon you the mystery, expansiveness, beauty and terror of the planes and their denizens, level shouldn't matter. IMO. :)
Everyone seems to think planar and epic concepts are prerequisite of each other. I'd like to see a module (or even an AP) where the characters start at level one as residents of a planar city (Planescape may be out of the question, but I'm not picky). I'd buy that and all the supplementary products.Ditto :)
It's easy to run epic games on the planes, but by no means are you restricted to running the planes at high level. It's just easier to survive on certain utterly hostile planes at higher levels. So long as the campaign impresses upon you the mystery, expansiveness, beauty and terror of the planes and their denizens, level shouldn't matter. IMO. :)
I couldn't agree more, which is why I want to see a Pathfinder Planar book very much and am indifferent on the subject of an Epic book. Though now that it's been brought up, I would subscribe for a Planar Adventure Path as soon as one was offered, or one that had a majority of it's action going on throughout the planes.
Personally, I think [the epic rules] should go into a book by themselves, especially since the epic rules will have to encompass all of the core and base classes (I would imagine).
They could ... also include the first epic bestiary at the back of the book as well.
Fixed that for you :)
Edit: I completely agree with Todd. In fact, in some ways it's better to run a low-level planar adventure, since lower-level characters don't have so many options available for avoiding hazards.
Everyone seems to think planar and epic concepts are prerequisite of each other. I'd like to see a module (or even an AP) where the characters start at level one as residents of a planar city (Planescape may be out of the question, but I'm not picky). I'd buy that and all the supplementary products.
I don't hate epic campaigns (quite the contrary), but the mechanics should not appear in a book by themselves; maybe in an Unearthed Arcana equivalent with other alternative rules. I think the mechanics would fit into such a book while not taking up an entire core product slot.
I disagree. Personally, I think they should go into a book by themselves, especially since the epic rules will have to encompass all of the core and base classes (I would imagine).
They could follow the 3ed ELH and also include an epic bestiary at the back of the book as well.
I get where you're coming from. I'm not saying that I don't want an epic PFRPG handbook, but rather that Paizo should not spend their time on one when Golarion is still largely untouched. Trust me, I want Paizo to publish an epic handbook along with:
a Ravenloft-equivalent fear-based campaign setting or rulebook,a PFRPG version of The Book of Vile Darkness,
an INT-based arcane undead-master class with social class skills,
a Dragon Age rpg using Pathfinder rules (basically a Dragon Age tabletop that doesn't suck),
a d20 Future equivalent,
...and more. This doesn't mean that I think they should publish any of these right away, because then they would lose customers and future projects would be out of their reach. I want Paizo to establish themselves in such a way that such products would be feasible investments.
I get where you're coming from. I'm not saying that I don't want an epic PFRPG handbook, but rather that Paizo should not spend their time on one when Golarion is still largely untouched.Personally, I think [epic rules] should go into a book by themselves, especially since the epic rules will have to encompass all of the core and base classes (I would imagine).
They could follow the 3ed ELH and also include an epic bestiary at the back of the book as well.
That would be true if the market for Pathfinder was the same as the market for the Golarion campaign setting, but in my opinion it's not.
I'm one of what I'm guessing is a reasonable-sized group of people that prefers to create their own campaign world; plus we're getting ready to retire our 4E convention campaign, replacing it with a Pathfinder-based one.
Thus, I have the exact opposite view - I'd prefer that Paizo spend more time on non-Golarion stuff and less time on Golarion-specific stuff. The Golarion stuff is interesting and fun to read and for ideas, but it's not something my game group uses.
It's their bread and butter, so I'm certainly not going to gripe about it, but I just wanted to raise the point that there's other uses for the Pathfinder rule set than running Golarion campaigns.
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Slow Progression: For every 1,600,000 XP earned past level 20, the character gains a feat.
Medium Progression: For every 1,200,000 XP earned past level 20, the character gains a feat.
Fast Progression: For every 800,000 XP earned past level 20, the character gains a feat.
There would be some feats added with the pre-requisite of 20th level. Stuff like adding +1 to your BAB (fighter only), enhance sneak attack damage, etc.
Basically, it would be a flattening of the power curve, instead of having it skyrocket like most epic rulesets I've seen.
There has been some debate over on the Open Design forums about possibly doing a more comprehensive planar work as a patron project based on The Great Beyond. Wolfgang has said (toward the end of the thread) that it might be doable for 2011 if the senior patrons like the idea.
Relevant linky: >Poll and thread<
Yes please, can I have both? Golarion stuff don't interest me much, but a planar book and an epic book would do nicely. ;D
Creative Director
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So the monster list is out in poster form. Which means I can pull the curtain back more now and just flat-out list the three Epic Level Handbook monsters that graduated into Pathfinder via the SRD and thus appear in Bestiary 2:
Mu Spore (CR 21)
Neh-Thalgu (Brain Collector, but downsized to CR 8)
Worm that Walks (Template, +2 CR, downpowered so that it works as a template for ANY CR rather than just above 21 CRs)
So yeah... one actual epic monster, one retconned to non-epic level, and one that can be both epic and non epic.
Of the actual stat blocks in the book, there's 5 that are above CR 20.
For those looking for high level CR foes (CR 13 and higher), there's 55 of those guys.
For those looking for stat blocks for monsters from other planes, that number's at about 100.
So the monster list is out in poster form. Which means I can pull the curtain back more now and just flat-out list the three Epic Level Handbook monsters that graduated into Pathfinder via the SRD and thus appear in Bestiary 2:
Mu Spore (CR 21)
Neh-Thalgu (Brain Collector, but downsized to CR 8)
Worm that Walks (Template, +2 CR, downpowered so that it works as a template for ANY CR rather than just above 21 CRs)So yeah... one actual epic monster, one retconned to non-epic level, and one that can be both epic and non epic.
Of the actual stat blocks in the book, there's 5 that are above CR 20.
For those looking for high level CR foes (CR 13 and higher), there's 55 of those guys.
For those looking for stat blocks for monsters from other planes, that number's at about 100.
So I'll be looking through the new bestiary without leaving my home for a week? Awesome, thanks for the sneak peek.
Put me and most of Dicefreaks down for wanting epic rules.
And James, did Sutter design the weaker Neh-Thalggu? Because I seem to recall him doing that before, say, around CR 7.....
:) Golismorga awaits my PCs!
So the monster list is out in poster form. Which means I can pull the curtain back more now and just flat-out list the three Epic Level Handbook monsters that graduated into Pathfinder via the SRD and thus appear in Bestiary 2:
Mu Spore (CR 21)
Neh-Thalgu (Brain Collector, but downsized to CR 8)
Worm that Walks (Template, +2 CR, downpowered so that it works as a template for ANY CR rather than just above 21 CRs)
So the winterwight listed in that thread has nothing to do with the ELH's winterwight? Good. Those were cheap, what with their ability to permanently remove hit points from a character.
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Creative Director
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So the monster list is out in poster form. Which means I can pull the curtain back more now and just flat-out list the ...Cool!
So, does this mean we are close to the BIG Reveal The Actual List Of What Creatures Are In the Bestiary II moment???
If the promo poster of the monsters doesn't count as the actual list, yes.
But if the promo poster DOES count... then the reveal happened already in a sort of stealth manner.|
Creative Director
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So the winterwight listed in that thread has nothing to do with the ELH's winterwight? Good. Those were cheap, what with their ability to permanently remove hit points from a character.So the monster list is out in poster form. Which means I can pull the curtain back more now and just flat-out list the three Epic Level Handbook monsters that graduated into Pathfinder via the SRD and thus appear in Bestiary 2:
Mu Spore (CR 21)
Neh-Thalgu (Brain Collector, but downsized to CR 8)
Worm that Walks (Template, +2 CR, downpowered so that it works as a template for ANY CR rather than just above 21 CRs)
OH! HA! Yeah, the winterwight is also from the ELH SRD. Turns out, when you have over 300 monsters to juggle, it's easy to miss one.
Of course, our version of the winterwight is a CR 17 version, so it's not nearly so crazy. It certainly doesn't do permanent hp damage anymore.
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Creative Director
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Put me and most of Dicefreaks down for wanting epic rules.
And James, did Sutter design the weaker Neh-Thalggu? Because I seem to recall him doing that before, say, around CR 7.....
:) Golismorga awaits my PCs!
The weaker Neh-Thalggu was indeed done for D&D in that adventure (although whether it was James Sutter, Wes Schneider, or me who designed it for that incarnation I can't remember).
This version was originally converted to CR 8 from the SRD by Jason Nelson, and then developed so that it would fit on a page by me—that one in particular was pretty tricky.
OH! HA! Yeah, the winterwight is also from the ELH SRD. Turns out, when you have over 300 monsters to juggle, it's easy to miss one.
Did you include the lavawight too? That's essentially the same as the winterwight if I recall properly.
Of course, our version of the winterwight is a CR 17 version, so it's not nearly so crazy. It certainly doesn't do permanent hp damage anymore.
Heheh. Funny, that's one of the reasons I *used* the lavawight against my group.
Of course, they had no trouble with the lavawights, since they never failed the saves. But that's okay, the lavawights were just meant to be a warning. Now, when they ran into the advanced shapes of fire, on the other hand ...
So the winterwight listed in that thread has nothing to do with the ELH's winterwight? Good. Those were cheap, what with their ability to permanently remove hit points from a character.So the monster list is out in poster form. Which means I can pull the curtain back more now and just flat-out list the three Epic Level Handbook monsters that graduated into Pathfinder via the SRD and thus appear in Bestiary 2:
Mu Spore (CR 21)
Neh-Thalgu (Brain Collector, but downsized to CR 8)
Worm that Walks (Template, +2 CR, downpowered so that it works as a template for ANY CR rather than just above 21 CRs)
OH! HA! Yeah, the winterwight is also from the ELH SRD. Turns out, when you have over 300 monsters to juggle, it's easy to miss one.
Of course, our version of the winterwight is a CR 17 version, so it's not nearly so crazy. It certainly doesn't do permanent hp damage anymore.
The Adamantine and Mithral Golems were also in the ELH.:)
The Adamantine and Mithral Golems were also in the ELH.:)
I'm betting the Bestiary II versions are not CR 25 and 21, seeing that they've reduced the neh-thalgu and the winterwight. But I could be wrong; James said there's five monsters over CR 20.
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Creative Director
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Did you include the lavawight too? That's essentially the same as the winterwight if I recall properly.
Nope; the lavawight is not included, because as you point out, it's essentially the same as the winterwight but just "opposite." I'm not a big fan of the "Every fire creature and cold creature needs a corresponding opposite" design philosophy. Lavawights are unlikely to ever make it in to Pathfinder as a result.
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Creative Director
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The Adamantine and Mithral Golems were also in the ELH.:)I'm betting the Bestiary II versions are not CR 25 and 21, seeing that they've reduced the neh-thalgu and the winterwight. But I could be wrong; James said there's five monsters over CR 20.
HA! Yeah; they ARE in the book, but they're not the CR 21 and CR 25 versions. Theyr'e pretty much totally rebuilt as high (but sub 20) CR monsters. They were mostly built from scratch, and thus not technically from the Epic Level SRD.
EDIT: Adamantine Golem is CR 19; Mithral Golem is CR 16.
For those looking for stat blocks for monsters from other planes, that number's at about 100.
That's the best thing I've heard all day.
Did you include the lavawight too? That's essentially the same as the winterwight if I recall properly.Nope; the lavawight is not included, because as you point out, it's essentially the same as the winterwight but just "opposite." I'm not a big fan of the "Every fire creature and cold creature needs a corresponding opposite" design philosophy. Lavawights are unlikely to ever make it in to Pathfinder as a result.
Glad to hear it. And upon review of the creature list, I'm very happy to see additional elementals in there. I will be able to make great use of those.
But now, back on topic (and this is to James)
Has Wolfgang talked to anyone at Paizo yet about a Paizo-authorized Pathfinder planes book done by Open Design? The idea is being tossed around in one of the patron projects threads, and he mentioned he was going to bring it up.
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Creative Director
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Did you include the lavawight too? That's essentially the same as the winterwight if I recall properly.Nope; the lavawight is not included, because as you point out, it's essentially the same as the winterwight but just "opposite." I'm not a big fan of the "Every fire creature and cold creature needs a corresponding opposite" design philosophy. Lavawights are unlikely to ever make it in to Pathfinder as a result.
Glad to hear it. And upon review of the creature list, I'm very happy to see additional elementals in there. I will be able to make great use of those.
But now, back on topic (and this is to James)
Has Wolfgang talked to anyone at Paizo yet about a Paizo-authorized Pathfinder planes book done by Open Design? The idea is being tossed around in one of the patron projects threads, and he mentioned he was going to bring it up.
He has not. If by "Paizo-authored" you mean an Open Design book written by Paizo employees... that's unfortunately kind of unlikely to happen... we're pretty busy just trying to keep our own product line afloat and caught up to schedule without adding another project on top of that.
And an even MORE real issue is "How will we support epic rules after we release the first book?" Because a significant part of the problem with epic rules in 3rd edition was that they had VERY little support, and thus were in a self-fulling ghetto.The real issue is how many non-subscriber copies they'll sell, since their business model allows them to say "Well, we know we'll sell X subscriber copies. The only question is how many others we'll sell."
Personally, I would much rather have Monstrous PCs book before an Epic Level handbook. I'd be ok with a Planar handbook before or after the MPC book. But I'd rather have a Planar handbook that was half Golarian based (as you'll have to have that as the base setting), and half 'create your own' rules and such.
He has not. If by "Paizo-authored" you mean an Open Design book written by Paizo employees... that's unfortunately kind of unlikely to happen... we're pretty busy just trying to keep our own product line afloat and caught up to schedule without adding another project on top of that.Did you include the lavawight too? That's essentially the same as the winterwight if I recall properly.Nope; the lavawight is not included, because as you point out, it's essentially the same as the winterwight but just "opposite." I'm not a big fan of the "Every fire creature and cold creature needs a corresponding opposite" design philosophy. Lavawights are unlikely to ever make it in to Pathfinder as a result.
Glad to hear it. And upon review of the creature list, I'm very happy to see additional elementals in there. I will be able to make great use of those.
But now, back on topic (and this is to James)
Has Wolfgang talked to anyone at Paizo yet about a Paizo-authorized Pathfinder planes book done by Open Design? The idea is being tossed around in one of the patron projects threads, and he mentioned he was going to bring it up.
Authorized, not Authored. :) As in, with official blessings.
Did you include the lavawight too? That's essentially the same as the winterwight if I recall properly.Nope; the lavawight is not included, because as you point out, it's essentially the same as the winterwight but just "opposite." I'm not a big fan of the "Every fire creature and cold creature needs a corresponding opposite" design philosophy. Lavawights are unlikely to ever make it in to Pathfinder as a result.
Honestly, I'd love if you just did stuff like this with templates, or 4-5 pages of 'here's how to convert ice to fire, or air to earth' guidelines.
Not that I personally need them, I do this all the time. But, I have seen some really bad conversions done by inexperienced GMs who need a little advice on how to do it.
Quick question for James, if he cares to answer.
Are there any new 0HD sentient races in the B2? Like Tieflings, Drow, Duerger, etc?
Slow Progression: For every 1,600,000 XP earned past level 20, the character gains a feat.
Medium Progression: For every 1,200,000 XP earned past level 20, the character gains a feat.
Fast Progression: For every 800,000 XP earned past level 20, the character gains a feat.There would be some feats added with the pre-requisite of 20th level. Stuff like adding +1 to your BAB (fighter only), enhance sneak attack damage, etc.
Basically, it would be a flattening of the power curve, instead of having it skyrocket like most epic rulesets I've seen.
And if you simply allow/use the feats (only) from the epic level handbook, this would work perfectly as (IIRC) those feats do what you list above.
Heck, the Pathfinder Epic Rulebook doesn't have to be a 320- or 256-page book, it could be a 32-page Player Companion. That way, support can simply be creatures with CRs in the 20-25 range, of which some already exist anyway. No "epic" product line needed!
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Creative Director
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Heck, the Pathfinder Epic Rulebook doesn't have to be a 320- or 256-page book, it could be a 32-page Player Companion. That way, support can simply be creatures with CRs in the 20-25 range, of which some already exist anyway. No "epic" product line needed!
No, it can't.
Cutting the GM out of the loop for rules on epic play is a TRAGIC mistake. He needs all of the player stuff as well as epic monsters, advice and resources on running super-high level games, and lots of other stuff so he can actually run/build the game for the players. It's important that the game rules, whatever they may be, allow for and provide content that allows the GM to throw creatures of CRs higher than the highest achievable player level. That's why the game has CR 21–25 monsters in it—so if you have a 20th level party, you have options for the big fights and boss monsters. Remember, a CR 20 creature is NOT supposed to be a significant challenge for a 20th level party. A 20th level party should be able to handle several CR 20 creatures in a row, in fact.
Limiting the epic level content to a 32 page player companion would be worse, in my opinion, than doing nothing at all.
Heck, the Pathfinder Epic Rulebook doesn't have to be a 320- or 256-page book, it could be a 32-page Player Companion. That way, support can simply be creatures with CRs in the 20-25 range, of which some already exist anyway. No "epic" product line needed!No, it can't.
Cutting the GM out of the loop for rules on epic play is a TRAGIC mistake. He needs all of the player stuff as well as epic monsters, advice and resources on running super-high level games, and lots of other stuff so he can actually run/build the game for the players. It's important that the game rules, whatever they may be, allow for and provide content that allows the GM to throw creatures of CRs higher than the highest achievable player level. That's why the game has CR 21–25 monsters in it—so if you have a 20th level party, you have options for the big fights and boss monsters. Remember, a CR 20 creature is NOT supposed to be a significant challenge for a 20th level party. A 20th level party should be able to handle several CR 20 creatures in a row, in fact.
Limiting the epic level content to a 32 page player companion would be worse, in my opinion, than doing nothing at all.
This raises an interesting point and a thought I had. Why not make it a stand-alone product? A book or two that contained classes, skills and feats, new spells, story hooks, and epic monsters with the understanding that this might be it. Two books, and possibly one larger book could do that. Other support material could be added later if you had it. If not, everyone knows right up front that this would be it.
Yes; there's about 6 of them.Quick question for James, if he cares to answer.
Are there any new 0HD sentient races in the B2? Like Tieflings, Drow, Duerger, etc?
Happy Dance #114 : Irish Jig (with Irish Whiskey in shot glass)
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Creative Director
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This raises an interesting point and a thought I had. Why not make it a stand-alone product? A book or two that contained classes, skills and feats, new spells, story hooks, and epic monsters with the understanding that this might be it. Two books, and possibly one larger book could do that. Other support material could be added later if you had it. If not, everyone knows right up front that this would be it.
Because it's against Paizo's current design philosophy.
Our rulebooks are pretty significant money makers, but that's not only because folks like the rules. It's because we also support those rules with adventures, campaigns, player's companions, and an entire campaign setting. If you buy a rulebook from Paizo, you know that not only are you going to use it, but we're going to give you WAYS you can use those rules beyond the book.
One of the unfortunate problems with the 3rd edition Epic Level book was that there WASN'T strong support for it; the same thing happened to other non-core books like Psionics or Savage Species or Ghostwalk or whatever. Books without strong support from the company who produced that book slip into ghettos and that's not something we want our epic rules to do.
If and when we do an epic level book... we HAVE to support it from that point on. Or we have to change the company's design philosophy.
~raises my hand~ I would buy an Epic Level Handbook and a Planar Handbook. I would also love some adventures supporting said products.
This raises an interesting point and a thought I had. Why not make it a stand-alone product? A book or two that contained classes, skills and feats, new spells, story hooks, and epic monsters with the understanding that this might be it. Two books, and possibly one larger book could do that. Other support material could be added later if you had it. If not, everyone knows right up front that this would be it.Because it's against Paizo's current design philosophy.
Our rulebooks are pretty significant money makers, but that's not only because folks like the rules. It's because we also support those rules with adventures, campaigns, player's companions, and an entire campaign setting. If you buy a rulebook from Paizo, you know that not only are you going to use it, but we're going to give you WAYS you can use those rules beyond the book.
One of the unfortunate problems with the 3rd edition Epic Level book was that there WASN'T strong support for it; the same thing happened to other non-core books like Psionics or Savage Species or Ghostwalk or whatever. Books without strong support from the company who produced that book slip into ghettos and that's not something we want our epic rules to do.
If and when we do an epic level book... we HAVE to support it from that point on. Or we have to change the company's design philosophy.
Ok. I understand. This could be the perfect reason to start focusing on one area I've always felt the game was lacking, and that's the level 15 and up content. I also understand that in Golorion such characters would be a little problematic and the scale of the game would by necessity go up. But then I look at the planets beyond Golorion, and the planes themselves as others have mentioned, and I see a potential play ground for such powerful characters to travel to.
Just some thoughts.
Heck, the Pathfinder Epic Rulebook doesn't have to be a 320- or 256-page book, it could be a 32-page Player Companion. That way, support can simply be creatures with CRs in the 20-25 range, of which some already exist anyway. No "epic" product line needed!No, it can't.
Cutting the GM out of the loop for rules on epic play is a TRAGIC mistake. He needs all of the player stuff as well as epic monsters, advice and resources on running super-high level games, and lots of other stuff so he can actually run/build the game for the players. It's important that the game rules, whatever they may be, allow for and provide content that allows the GM to throw creatures of CRs higher than the highest achievable player level. That's why the game has CR 21–25 monsters in it—so if you have a 20th level party, you have options for the big fights and boss monsters. Remember, a CR 20 creature is NOT supposed to be a significant challenge for a 20th level party. A 20th level party should be able to handle several CR 20 creatures in a row, in fact.
Limiting the epic level content to a 32 page player companion would be worse, in my opinion, than doing nothing at all.
I'm looking at it more of from a 1E point of view, though. We had unlimited levels in 1E (well, for humans anyway) and there was no "support" beyond the base rulebooks. That's the kind of model I wouldn't mind (and what Kthulhu originally brought up).
The model you're suggesting - with full support - may not be practical for Paizo to do - thus the more simple version proposed. If epic rules are still in their baby stages at this point, well, maybe they shouldn't be released at all. (The ELH came out 2 years into the 3E D&D product cycle. It looks like epic rules from Paizo would be at least in the 4th year of Pathfinder's lifespan.) If so few people play epic levels, then it certainly sounds like the traditional model of Paizo support would be a losing prospect for Paizo.
Personally (and it sounds like I'm very much in the minority), I think the RPG is incomplete without epic rules - and open-ended epic rules at that. It feels finite to me. Like a CRPG. Part of the reason I play tabletop is to not be limited by the confines required by a CRPG, and Pathfinder, as it stands with a 20-level game, seems limited to me. However, the limited info in the PF Core Rulebook is a bit too little, as I think epic feats keep it interesting. (Which, granted, does not match the 1E model, but as the ELH feats are OGC, could be used in a smaller product.)
Cutting the GM out of the loop for rules on epic play is a TRAGIC mistake. He needs all of the player stuff as well as epic monsters, advice and resources on running super-high level games, and lots of other stuff so he can actually run/build the game for the players. It's important that the game rules, whatever they may be, allow for and provide content that allows the GM to throw creatures of CRs higher than the highest achievable player level.
I agree whole-heartedly that GM support and advice is mandatory. There are some very serious pitfalls in attempting to run games at the epic level, and the style and content of adventures is markedly different than even high-level adventures are. As a result, it's even more crucial that the game fit the players' playing styles, given the power levels that will be in evidence.
Personally (and it sounds like I'm very much in the minority), I think the RPG is incomplete without epic rules - and open-ended epic rules at that ...
As a whole, people who will purchase epic rules may be a minority, but that's not necessarily relevant. What's relevant is if the number who will purchase epic rules and the subsequent epic support content is a sufficiently large group to make it worthwhile.
I have two answers to this - first, I think the existing number is probably sufficient, but even if that's not strictly true, I think that well written and well supported epic material will increase the size of the group that plays at the epic level.
Just consider how the Pathfinder community appears to be growing. Quality leads to growth.
I agree whole-heartedly that GM support and advice is mandatory. There are some very serious pitfalls in attempting to run games at the epic level, and the style and content of adventures is markedly different than even high-level adventures are. As a result, it's even more crucial that the game fit the players' playing styles, given the power levels that will be in evidence.Personally (and it sounds like I'm very much in the minority), I think the RPG is incomplete without epic rules - and open-ended epic rules at that ...As a whole, people who will purchase epic rules may be a minority, but that's not necessarily relevant. What's relevant is if the number who will purchase epic rules and the subsequent epic support content is a sufficiently large group to make it worthwhile.
I have two answers to this - first, I think the existing number is probably sufficient, but even if that's not strictly true, I think that well written and well supported epic material will increase the size of the group that plays at the epic level.
Just consider how the Pathfinder community appears to be growing. Quality leads to growth.
Oh, I agree - I'd love to see full epic support. My point was that, if there can't be full epic support, then do *something* rather than nothing. Of course, if they do nothing, there's always the ELH, flaws & all....
Oh, I agree - I'd love to see full epic support. My point was that, if there can't be full epic support, then do *something* rather than nothing. Of course, if they do nothing, there's always the ELH, flaws & all....(lots 'o stuff)
Just consider how the Pathfinder community appears to be growing. Quality leads to growth.
Right. I still use the ELH on a weekly basis; I'd just like to see a better-supported and better-tested product.
I'm hoping for 2012, but that may be a bit soon.
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Heck, the Pathfinder Epic Rulebook doesn't have to be a 320- or 256-page book, it could be a 32-page Player Companion. That way, support can simply be creatures with CRs in the 20-25 range, of which some already exist anyway. No "epic" product line needed!No, it can't.
Cutting the GM out of the loop for rules on epic play is a TRAGIC mistake. He needs all of the player stuff as well as epic monsters, advice and resources on running super-high level games, and lots of other stuff so he can actually run/build the game for the players. It's important that the game rules, whatever they may be, allow for and provide content that allows the GM to throw creatures of CRs higher than the highest achievable player level. That's why the game has CR 21–25 monsters in it—so if you have a 20th level party, you have options for the big fights and boss monsters. Remember, a CR 20 creature is NOT supposed to be a significant challenge for a 20th level party. A 20th level party should be able to handle several CR 20 creatures in a row, in fact.
Limiting the epic level content to a 32 page player companion would be worse, in my opinion, than doing nothing at all.
I wasn't suggesting this. What I was suggesting was the following:
1. It might be a better idea to level out the power curve past 20th level, instead of having it skyrocket to infinity and beyond, as per the ELH.2. While I agree that you need to include lots of support such ad DM advice, epic monsters, epic feats, etc...the actual mechanical rules themselves could be pretty damn simple, such as my "gain a feat every ___ XP."
I also think that even with the extra advice, feats, monsters, etc, that my version of "epic rules" wouldn't quite merit their own hardcover. Were I in charge, I'd include them as a hefty chunk of a larger work, like a GameMastery Guide II.
*drags the Epic Rules outside, shoots them repeatedly in the head, pours gasoline, sets on fire and looks around with murder in his eyes*
Dude. They're epic rules. They have immunity to fire.