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I am currently having a disagreement with one of my fellow players regarding Lances and Smite/Challenge. Can I please have an official confirm that Smites and Challenges are Multiplied on Crits and charges with lances
My level 8 Cavalier/Bard/Chevalier Challenges a creature while charging with his Lance (he has Spirited Charge and Vital Strike)
normally my lance does 2d8 +5 while Charging (+2 str +2 Enhancement +1 Arcane Strike)
but while Charging it will do 3d8+15 +1d8 (or 1d8 +5)+ (1d8 +5)+ (1d8+5)+ (1d8)
but While Challenging I get +9 (6 from Cavalier +3 from Cockatrice)damage making it 3d8+42 +1d8 or (1d8 +5 +9)+(1d8 +5 +9)+(1d8 +5 +9)+ (1d8)
Also do Smite and Challenge Stack when on same target?
~Ryan
I am currently having a disagreement with one of my fellow players regarding Lances and Smite/Challenge. Can I please have an official confirm that Smites and Challenges are Multiplied on Crits and charges with lances
My level 8 Cavalier/Bard/Chevalier Challenges a creature while charging with his Lance (he has Spirited Charge and Vital Strike)
normally my lance does 2d8 +5 while Charging (+2 str +2 Enhancement +1 Arcane Strike)
but while Charging it will do 3d8+15 +1d8 (or 1d8 +5)+ (1d8 +5)+ (1d8+5)+ (1d8)
but While Challenging I get +9 (6 from Cavalier +3 from Cockatrice)damage making it 3d8+42 +1d8 or (1d8 +5 +9)+(1d8 +5 +9)+(1d8 +5 +9)+ (1d8)
Also do Smite and Challenge Stack when on same target?
~Ryan
The dispute is not per se the multiplication on a critical, it is the multiplication with a lance, on a horse, while charging.
A lance does double damage when charging.
A lance does double damage on horseback.
This means it does 1d8 *3, so 3d8 damage.
The question is do you add the bonus challenge damage to the lance at the start, so 1d8 + 14, then multiply by 3, or do you calculate it as 3d8 + 14. The difference is huge. 3d8 + 42 vs. 3d8 + 14.
If you want to interpret the letter of the damage, it states that the strength bonus is added to the damage result, not the damage dice.
Does charging with a lance on a horse triple all damage, or just triple the damage done by the lance itself?
The cavalier text states that:
Once per day, a cavalier can challenge a foe to combat. As a swift action, the cavalier chooses one target within sight to challenge. The cavalier’s melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to the cavalier’s level. The cavalier can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every three levels beyond 1st, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
Why is this being multiplied 3x by charging with a lance on a horse? It should be added to the damage done at the end. It could be doubled on a critical hit, but not tripled (the +9 per damage dice) then doubled again (on the critical hit). It should be +9 damage to the total damage result at the end of the roll, then if there is a critical hit doubled to 18. It should not in my opinion be calculated as +27 damage, doubled to +54 damage.
Per the entry under weapons, weapon qualities, critical in the equipment section (don't know the page)
"Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."
That line of text should be the end of the debate.
Smite is not part of the weapons damage.
Challenge is not part of the weapons damage.
Strength is not part of the weapons damage.
End of story in my opinion.
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Allright I can see where this Confusion lies
my argument
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied
which implies that only additional dice damage is not multiplied on a crit or charge
Wizards Argument
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
×2: The weapon deals double damage on a critical hit.
×3: The weapon deals triple damage on a critical hit.
×3/×4: One head of this double weapon deals triple damage on a critical hit. The other head deals quadruple damage on a critical hit.
×4: The weapon deals quadruple damage on a critical hit.
19–20/×2: The weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 19 or 20 (instead of just 20) and deals double damage on a critical hit.
18–20/×2: The weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 18, 19, or 20 (instead of just 20) and deals double damage on a critical hit.
which implies that Smites are not multiplied on a Crit
which is correct they contridict eachother? this is why I wanted some Clarification lol
which implies that only additional dice damage is not multiplied on a crit or charge
IMHO, it has to be ruled this way or Mounted Combat (as in the stuff you do with that feat tree, not all combat that involves a mount) becomes completely non-viable, mechanically.
There's a lot of inherent limitations to the "I'ma charge something with my lance" style of combat as-is, even if it seems great when it has all of its ducks in a line.
Here's the part that is confusing people.
"When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll)"
The important part is the last sentence. It's says if you have a x4 crit multiplier, you roll the dice 4 times and you add all of the appropriate modifiers to each die roll. Then you add all of those die rolls together for a total. The key words are on EACH roll. That's staggeringly clear to me.
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which implies that only additional dice damage is not multiplied on a crit or charge
IMHO, it has to be ruled this way or Mounted Combat (as in the stuff you do with that feat tree, not all combat that involves a mount) becomes completely non-viable, mechanically.
There's a lot of inherent limitations to the "I'ma charge something with my lance" style of combat as-is, even if it seems great when it has all of its ducks in a line.
The rules need to clarified
when both sides of the argument use Core and contradict each other something needs to be changed.
Do Smite and Challenge do Weapon Damage or Precision damage or untyped damage?
Do crits multiply everything but Bonus Dice damage as per multiplying damage?
or
do they only multiply Weapon Damage as per Equipment Qualities Criticals?
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Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a
natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your
target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,”
meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find
out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt
to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all
the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the
confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target’s
AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just
needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn’t need to come up
20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit
is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more
than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls
together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a
critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue’s
sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice
from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not
multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is
greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower
number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an
automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is
not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better
than double damage on a critical hit (see Chapter 6).
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack
roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires
no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes
ability damage or drain (see Appendix 1), the damage or
drain is doubled on a critical hit.
Page 184... this would mean that smite and strength and weapon specialization and favored enemy and weapon training and EVERYTHING ELSE which is a bonus in terms of straight numbers but not EXTRA DICE is multiplied... Smite and Challenge are 'usual bonuses' as they are bonuses get usually get against smote (heh) or challenged opponents... infact it's UNUSUAL to NOT get those bonuses against enemies you have chosen to Smite or Challenge.
Is Challenge with a lance sick? Yes! Is it broken? No.
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Yes. But the combo is somewhat meh unless your playing Gestalt where it could be truly horrendous.
My build is as follows
6 Cavalier(Cockatrice), 1 Bard Arcane Duelist, 1 Chevalier
will take 2 more Chevalier and finish with 10 levels of Battle Herald
will Smite like a 20th level Pal and Challenge like a level 16 Cavalier of the order of the cockatrice
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Nothing in battle herald mentions increasing the effective level of either the smite evil ability or the challenge. Challenge is one of the things battle herald doesn't progress.
Smite evil specifically calls out as adding 'Paladin Level', or in your case Chevalier.
Challenge does the same for cavalier.
With your posted build, you will have smite evil as a level 3 Paladin, and challenge as a level 6 cavalier. Character level does not equal class level.
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Nothing in battle herald mentions increasing the effective level of either the smite evil ability or the challenge. Challenge is one of the things battle herald doesn't progress.
Smite evil specifically calls out as adding 'Paladin Level', or in your case Chevalier.
Challenge does the same for cavalier.
With your posted build, you will have smite evil as a level 3 Paladin, and challenge as a level 6 cavalier. Character level does not equal class level.
Alex
Smite Evil (Su)
Once per day, a chevalier can smite evil as if he were a paladin of his character level.
and you are right about the Challenge I saw that Banner and tactician stacked and assumed that challenge did to when I saw demanding challenge and assumed that it did stack as well my bad.