A character can become a Shadowdancer from level 6 onwards if they pick the right prerequisites. At 8th level (3rd level shadowdancer), the character gains a Shadow companion. The Shadow companion has the potential to make the Shadowdancer a really interesting build as its main offensive weapon is dishing out d6 strength damage every time it succeeds on a touch attack.
If I was to build a shadowdancer character, I would want to focus on this as the main theme of the build - a strength draining character. I see the pair flanking monsters and weakening it to the point that it can't move. So my question is how can the Shadowdancer back up the Shadow's attacks with strength draining attacks of its own? I've looked at a few options but haven't found anything that works in a reliable and regular fashion. Poisons aren't very potent, are expensive, and are difficult to use. So that leaves magic items, spells, abilities or feats. Anyone have some ideas on this?
Is the drain of the same type as a Ray of enfeeblement? If not umd / wand ftw!
Is the drain of the same type as a Ray of enfeeblement? If not umd / wand ftw!
Unfortunately, Ray of enfeeblement on a wand is not a good option. Firstly, it only lasts 1 round per level so on a 1st level wand that won't do any good. Secondly, they get a fort save for half which will be saved most of the time given that it's a 1st level wand spell. Finally, at 8th level you need a UMD skill of 19 to guarantee that the spell will work.
Chill Touch spell which is also first level does not suffer the 1 round / level limitation. However, it only does 1 point of strength per successful hit so this is also sub-optimal. Any other ideas?
The 19 umd isn't that tough to get, and I imagine if you talk to your dm he would allow a wand at a higher caster level. However if you are dead set against it, I would ask my dm for a rogue talent that subs d6's of sneak for a point of strength.
A Poisoner Rogue build from the APG could possibly do this with the right poisons on his blades
Also
Advanced Talents: At 10th level, and every two levels
thereafter, a rogue can choose one of the following
advanced talents in place of a rogue talent.
Crippling Strike* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak
attack opponents with such precision
that her blows weaken and hamper
them. An opponent damaged by
one of her sneak attacks also takes 2
points of Strength damage.
Seems tailor made for it as well as possibly adding to the poison's effects
The 19 umd isn't that tough to get, and I imagine if you talk to your dm he would allow a wand at a higher caster level. However if you are dead set against it, I would ask my dm for a rogue talent that subs d6's of sneak for a point of strength.
The 19 umd would require you to bump up charisma at the expense of other attributes. But you are quite right, it's achievable. The real bummer for me on that option is the fact that it dissipates after a round or 2.
My DM strictly sticks to the rules but allows anything published by Paizo in the Golarion world including allowing us 2 traits at creation.
A Poisoner Rogue build from the APG could possibly do this with the right poisons on his blades
Also
Advanced Talents: At 10th level, and every two levels
thereafter, a rogue can choose one of the following
advanced talents in place of a rogue talent.
Crippling Strike* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak
attack opponents with such precision
that her blows weaken and hamper
them. An opponent damaged by
one of her sneak attacks also takes 2
points of Strength damage.Seems tailor made for it as well as possibly adding to the poison's effects
The crippling strike is a fantastic option. Pity I have to wait until level 10 to get it. I was hoping to find something useful at level 8 in the meantime.
Shadow essence poison injury 17 — 1/rd. for 6 rds. 1 Str drain/1d2 Str 1 save 250 gp
May be wht you need to cover the gap :D
Shadow essence poison injury 17 — 1/rd. for 6 rds. 1 Str drain/1d2 Str 1 save 250 gp
May be wht you need to cover the gap :D
Just trying to get my head around how poisons work. If they fail their initial save, they take an initial 1 point of strength damage and they keep having to make the save for the next 6 rounds? Yet any time they make the save the effect ends? And how does the 1d2 Str come into it? Sorry, I'm a bit confused by the mechanics.
On another note, that's 250gp you're using up per attack? That seems expensive to me. Perhaps this poison might be a good option if my character made it with a high craft alchemy skill. How does that affect the price?
I'm not 100% sure of the mechanics myself sadly :( however crafting is usually 1/3 cost and i'm fairly sure many GM's would all for the fact you have an actual shadow to gather supplies from as such and reduce the cost a bit more.
My DM strictly sticks to the rules but allows anything published by Paizo in the Golarion world including allowing us 2 traits at creation.
If this is the case then he should allow you to commission the creation of a Wand of Enfeeblement that has a higher CL. The CL is determined by the creator.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level.
Alternately you could put Spell Storing on your weapon and make a deal with your caster to put a RoE in there. It would be cast at the caster's CL and have his spell DC.
....
Are you permitted to use 3.5 materials? If so there is a special material you can craft your weapon from which, IIRC, causes the weapon to do -1 damage but is naturally poisons and also causes anyone struck by it to take 1d4 DEX damage, Fort save DC 14 to negate. It's not STR but that combined with some other things would be horribly debilitating as a whole.
....
The Poisoner Rogue archetype from the APG is a strong option. They get Poison Use and their Trap Sense becomes a 1/2 level bonus to Craft (Alchemy) checks when working with poisons. It also grants you the ability to change the type (Ingested, Inhaled, Contact, Injury) of any poison with a successful Craft (Alchemy) check.
Now if you combine that with the Lasting Poison and Swift Poison Rogue Talents, and the Deadly Cocktail Advanced Rogue Talent (All from the APG) and your poison attacks can get pretty ugly. With Swift Poison you can apply poison as a move action. With Lasting Poison you can apply poison to your weapon in a way that one dose will last for two strikes but the doses are weaker so opponents get +2 to save against the poison. With Deadly Cocktail you can apply two doses of poison to the same blade at once. You can apply two different kinds that work separately, or two doses of the same kind which will increase the potency +2 to the DC to resist. If you prepare your weapons using Lasting Poison and Deadly Cocktail (2x same poison) then the DC will be as normal and will last for two strikes per blade. So if you do this with a TWF build you could get up to four poisoned attacks before having to recoat your weapons. That said, if you deal all four attacks in the same round the DC for the save would be the Base DC +6 to resist (23 for Shadow Essence).
As for making the poison, I would agree with Bertious that if you have a Shadow companion you should be able to get the ingredients for Shadow Essence poison at a reduced price, possibly free. If you take the Master Alchemist feat from the APG you will be able to make multiple doses of poison at once and much faster since you calculate the price in GP not CP. You will still calculate the base price at 1/3 total price for the purposes of determining crafting progress, but you shouldn't have to actually spend that much since you have the Shadow.
If they fail their initial save, they take an initial 1 point of strength damage and they keep having to make the save for the next 6 rounds?
Yes, although if you hit them four times with the Lasting Poison/Deadly Cocktail combo that I said above it would be for 15 rounds.
Yet any time they make the save the effect ends?
Yes. The cure for Shadow Essence poison is one save. But keep in mind that that save can be anywhere from DC 15 - 23 depending on how you apply your poison talents and how many successful attacks you get in the same round. Plus each additional poisoned attack will increase the durration by 1/2 the base durration and increas the DC by an additional +2.
And how does the 1d2 Str come into it?
The first save is only 1 STR drain if failed. Each time, after the first, the target fails the save it takes 1d2 of STR damage.
....
One detail about Crippling Strike, and other Advanced Rogue Talents, you won't be able to get it unless you have gone 10 levels as a straight Rogue. Now, this could definitely be worth the trouble, but the Shadowdancer only gets access to Advanced Rogue Talents if the character already has access to the Advanced Rogue Talents class feature. So if you want to get the Deadly Cocktail and Crippling Strike abilities, you will have to get to 10 levels of Rogue first.
Rogue Talent: At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, a shadowdancer gains a special ability that allows her to confound her foes. This functions as the rogue talent class feature. A shadowdancer cannot select an individual talent more than once. If a shadowdancer has the advanced talents rogue class feature, she can chose from the advanced talents list instead.
I didn't mention poison because you vetoed it out of the box, but crafting them brings the cost down a lot, especially if you farm ingredients from your kills. It's also a Fun addition to a character...I played a poisoner In curse of the crimson throne...I got to use my added knowledge to reverse engineer a cure for the plague!
One detail about Crippling Strike, and other Advanced Rogue Talents, you won't be able to get it unless you have gone 10 levels as a straight Rogue.
Shame about that. Pretty much rules out getting Crippling Strike at mid levels for a shadow dancer.
Also I think that there is a feat that allows one to give an attack to a flanking ally if your attack misses, can't recall it 100% right now, but it's likely in the APG. See what it is as the 1d6 STR a second or third time in the round would be worthwhile.Now this looks like a really interesting option. Perhaps focusing on teamwork feats that include flanking bonus and what you've mentioned to allow the shadow to get extra strength draining attacks. Definitely food for thought there.
I didn't mention poison because you vetoed it out of the box, but crafting them brings the cost down a lot, especially if you farm ingredients from your kills. It's also a Fun addition to a character...I played a poisoner In curse of the crimson throne...I got to use my added knowledge to reverse engineer a cure for the plague!
Yes, I think I was too dismissive of poison use in my original post when it may have some potential with the right combination of abilities, skills and feats.
One detail about Crippling Strike, and other Advanced Rogue Talents, you won't be able to get it unless you have gone 10 levels as a straight Rogue.Shame about that. Pretty much rules out getting Crippling Strike at mid levels for a shadow dancer.
Yes. You could manage it by 13th level though. (5 Rogue/3 SD/5 Rogue/7 SD) That would give you the Shadow companion by 8th level and you would still be able to get the advanced talents relatively soon. Then the talents you get with your last 7 levels of SD can also be used to attain advanced talents.
Also if you believe you may get to 10th level as a SD I would advise using a high Crit weapon, like the Rapier (18-20/x2). I say this because the SDs capstone ability functions off of critical strikes. It would be worth taking Improved Crit and possibly Crit Focus. Then you could possibly add a few other Crit feats.
Now this looks like a really interesting option. Perhaps focusing on teamwork feats that include flanking bonus and what you've mentioned to allow the shadow to get extra strength draining attacks. Definitely food for thought there.
Also I think that there is a feat that allows one to give an attack to a flanking ally if your attack misses, can't recall it 100% right now, but it's likely in the APG. See what it is as the 1d6 STR a second or third time in the round would be worthwhile.
I think James is referring to a Rogue Talent. The talent is called Assault Leader, it is not an advanced talent so you will be able to get it at low levels, and it is indeed in the APG:
Assault Leader (Ex): Once per day, when the rogue misses with an attack on a flanked opponent, she can designate a single ally who is also flanking the target that her attack missed. That ally can make a single melee attack against the opponent as an immediate action.
I fear the Teamwork Feats might be a waste of your time, unless you take them with other PC party members, because I don't think the Shadow can take feats. However there is one Combat Feat in the APG you might find very useful. The Gang Up (Combat) feat:
Gang Up (Combat):
You are adept at using greater numbers against foes.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.
Normal: You must be positioned opposite an ally to flank an opponent.
This is almost a must have for any Rogue as it vastly increases your possibilities for gaining Sneak Attack via flanking. You can have your Shadow companion move to flank an opponent with your PC party member, and then you can come up regardless of your position and also flank that opponent. Actually, even if you have two allies attacking the same creature who can't get into a flanking position you can still walk up to it and flank regardless of your position. The feat says you can do this as long as you have two allies threatening the same opponent. This is a very good feat. Now if you can get another PC or two in your party to go in on the flanking Teamwork Feats, you would be a really nasty team against almost any foe. Alternately, if your GM will allow the Leadership feat and you are then permitted to build your Cohort from the ground up, you could get the Teamwork Feats with him/her.
If I was to build a shadowdancer character, I would want to focus on this as the main theme of the build - a strength draining character. I see the pair flanking monsters and weakening it to the point that it can't move.
Don't forget to check the rules on ability damage. It doesn't work the way most people would expect. Ability scores don't actually get reduced, just specific & cumulative penalties applied, right up to the point where total damage equals or exceeds the starting ability score. If you're expecting to slow down a full-plate wearer by way of encumberance, it won't work.
Some things to note re the Summon Shadow ability of the Shadowdancer:
1. The summoned Shadow has the total max hitpoints, base attack bonus, and base save bonus of the Shadowdancer.
It does not ever gain more hit dice as the SD advances, thus it gains no further feats or increases to its skills. Also, I believe it would always be considered a 3 HD creature no matter the SDs level; although it can't be turned or commanded, this could prove to be a weakness at higher levels when facing effects such as Blasphemy that are based on HD.
However, this also means that the shadow is toughest when the SD has a higher BAB, higher hitpoints, and higher base saves. Thus, a SD based off of a full BAB class who also gets good base saves would be best, and in particular Will saves since the shadow will generally be immune to many Fort save effects. So actually a Paladin/SD will give for a very strong Shadow.
2. The shadow does 1d6 strength damage with its incorporeal touch attack.
This is a negative energy effect and there is no save to defend against it, unlike poisons and Ray of Enfeeblement which both have saving throws. Also, a creature that is reduced to 0 Str by a shadows strength damage immediately dies; normally a creature brought to 0 Str is unconscious instead.
There are numerous benefits and drawbacks to using the shadow to deal Str damage rather than poisons or a wand of Ray of Enfeeblement.
The wand of RoE requires a decent UMD score. Using the wand oneself will use up a standard action for the round, meaning no other attacks can be made; the shadow could attack and the shadowdancer could then take a full attack or any other full round action. The wand would have a very low saving throw (DC 11 for a 1st level wand) for half. Although the wand could have a higher str damage (if the save is failed, but not if it is made), the damage from the wand cannot stack with itself. The wand can also be resisted by SR. Since the SR resistance and the str damage of the wand is based on caster level, one would want the highest caster level possible; this would require the wand to cost substantially more. Also, there are the action requirements of using the wand--retrieving it for use, activating it, storing it again, and then drawing a weapon. Finally, the wand requires a ranged touch attack; thus firing the wand provokes an AoO, and it can be subject to penalties for cover or firing into melee. Although since its not an incorporeal touch attack like the shadows attack, force effects (such as Mage Armor and Shield) don't grant the target additional AC.
Also, the wand costs money. And a good wand of RoE can cost a lot of money. i.e. Empowered RoE Heightend one level to be the equivalent of a 4th lvl spell at 20th caster level for maximum effect would cost 60,000 to purchase or 30,000 to craft and would give 50 shots.
One benefit of the wand is that it is not a negative energy effect, whereas the shadows strength damage is. Thus, targets immune to negative energy effects would be immune to the shadow but not to the wand; a creature protected by Death Ward would be immune to the shadow but subject to RoE. (One change from 3.5, since RoE now offers a Fort save for half, undead are immune to its effects since undead are immune to effects that offer a Fort save that don't also effect objects. In 3.5 the spell had no Fort save and could effect undead normally, since it imposed a Str penalty and not damage; undead were immune to Str damage but not Str penalties.)
Thus, in general, the shadow will have a much greater effect overall than a character using a wand of RoE. Although there may be times when the reverse is true, these will generally be very rare.
Poisons are an effective way to deal Str damage. However there are a lot of different situations where the poisons would be more effective than the shadow, and others where the shadow would clearly be superior. This often depends on the target involved. I would note that many creatures have good Fort saves or are immune to poison, and thus in those circumstances the shadow is much better.
The shadow can have significant weaknesses, namely its poor AC and its stuck-forever-at 3 HD. However it does have the not-insignificant defense of incorporeality. And this makes it immune to the attacks of many creatures, and only takes half damage from those effects that can harm it (except for ghost touch attacks and certain magical attacks such as force or positive energy.) But against some enemies the shadow will be invincible. In particular, almost all Animals, Plants, Oozes, and Magical Beasts will have no way to affect the shadow.
Don't forget to check the rules on ability damage. It doesn't work the way most people would expect. Ability scores don't actually get reduced, just specific & cumulative penalties applied, right up to the point where total damage equals or exceeds the starting ability score. If you're expecting to slow down a full-plate wearer by way of encumberance, it won't work.
While it doesn't appear that ability damage to Str can affect encumbrance, or make a target lose access to feats or abilities based on Str score, such as Power Attack or a Composite Longbow, Str damage can cause significant penalties to attack and damage especially for melee oriented creatures. And a creature who receives enough Str damage from a shadow to equal its Str score immediately dies.
Thus, against the full plate warrior a shadow can quickly make such a character useless, assuming the warrior is melee based (and not many ranged attackers will wear full plate anyways), since the full plate warrior will generally base his attacks off of Str. And although say a magic user won't really care much if his Str is reduced, he probably doesn't have much Str to begin with and could easily be killed by a couple attacks from a shadow.
I've seen shadows take down high CR monsters that have no defense against their Str damage and no way to affect the incorporeal creatures. Against the right targets they are invincible. Against other targets however, such as a cleric channeling positive energy, they are merely a nuisance.
While it doesn't appear that ability damage to Str can affect encumbrance, or make a target lose access to feats or abilities based on Str score, such as Power Attack or a Composite Longbow, Str damage can cause significant penalties to attack and damage especially for melee oriented creatures. And a creature who receives enough Str damage from a shadow to equal its Str score immediately dies.
Thus, against the full plate warrior a shadow can quickly make such a character useless, assuming the warrior is melee based (and not many ranged attackers will wear full plate anyways), since the full plate warrior will generally base his attacks off of Str. And although say a magic user won't really care much if his Str is reduced, he probably doesn't have much Str to begin with and could easily be killed by a couple attacks from a shadow.
I've seen shadows take down high CR monsters that have no defense against their Str damage and no way to affect the incorporeal creatures. Against the right targets they are invincible. Against other targets however, such as a cleric channeling positive energy, they are merely a nuisance.
Oh absolutely. I just wanted to point out that distinction that is often missed. I myself thought I needed to look up my encumberance for each hit I took from Shadows way back when my Rogue was killed by them, and it turned out I didn't need to at all.
1. The summoned Shadow has the total max hitpoints, base attack bonus, and base save bonus of the Shadowdancer.
Actually, the Shadow will have half of the Shadowdancer's hit points. With it being incorporeal though, that's probably enough.
Though the one thing that's bothered me most about the Summon Shadow is the massive penalty you take if it does manage to get killed. No other 'companion' inflicts such a heavy penalty, with the possible exception of a Witch's Familiar. The negative level can be cured easily enough, but the wait time to get a new Shadow is the real killer. In my weekly campaign, 30 in-game days without a major class feature might work out to months of real time. I'd probably feel like just getting a new character at that point.
Actually, the Shadow will have half of the Shadowdancer's hit points. With it being incorporeal though, that's probably enough.
Though the one thing that's bothered me most about the Summon Shadow is the massive penalty you take if it does manage to get killed. No other 'companion' inflicts such a heavy penalty, with the possible exception of a Witch's Familiar. The negative level can be cured easily enough, but the wait time to get a new Shadow is the real killer. In my weekly campaign, 30 in-game days without a major class feature might work out to months of real time. I'd probably feel like just getting a new character at that point.
This is why it is important to remember a few things.
1) The Shadow can be healed with negative energy. You may have a party with a Cleric who channels negative energy. Or in the case that you have the good fortune to fight an enemy cleric who channels negative energy you might not have to worry about healing the Shadow yourself. Also a Wand of Inflict X Wounds would be a good investment.
2) The Shadow is incorporeal, it can move into solid objects and gain total cover. This not only protects the Shadow but also allows it to Stealth away. If you find yourself in a situation where walls are not handy, remember that any solid substance will do really, a boulder, a large tree, even the ground.
3) The Shadow can Fly at 40' which gives it yet another method of escape if needed.
4) Ghost Touch items can be manipulated by incorporeal creatures. You could give your Shadow companion a suit of Ghost Touched armor to wear. You could also give it a Ghost Touched shield for that matter. Also a few Ghost Touched weapons, while not better than his natural attack could come in useful for various purposes. A pair of Ghost Touched Gauntlets/Cestus would allow the Shadow to interact with corporeal things, while a Ghost Touched Quarterstaff would allow him to probe for traps. A Ghost Touched dagger or punching dagger would allow the Shadow to act as an Assassin, slipping into a place with the Shadowdancer, or even without him/her, and performing CDGs on sleeping targets. A Ghost Touched Scythe would be quite effective in this way also, not to mention quite intimidating to behold. Especially if you gave the Shadow Glamoured and Ghost Touched armor which it could make to look like a hooded black robe. Separately, if your GM agrees you could use Ghost Touched items to allow the Shadow to wear other magical gear. Most other companions can be given magic gear for any slot their form allows, the Shadow is a bit out of the ordinary in this respect. However, a GM might allow for a few of these interactions: A Ghost Touched Cestus would give the creature actual fingers upon which Magic Rings could be placed. A Ghost Touched suit of armor including a neck guard could give the Shadow a place to hang a magic necklace. Armor including a waist guard could allow for a magic belt. A Ghost Touched helm could then be enchanted as another type of helm. The GM might not allow these things but it's worth a shot considering other companions can be given magic items. The only thing that would be a potential problem with these combos is due to the fact that the Rings/Necklaces/Belt would not become incorporeal with the Shadow. That is only a problem if the Shadow needs to retreat into some solid object, the Ghost Touched stuff would become incorporeal with it, but the Rings/Necklaces/Belt would have to be abandoned for the creature to fully enter any solid object. Now, SOME GMs might allow for custom magic items that would allow the creature to avoid this issue, but it's not covered in the core rules.