kyrt-ryder wrote: pst, Kirth, you left the 'trading iteratives' bit in, even though you say the movement is free. Which is it? You no longer have to trade iteratives. Lemme go back and proofread. Thanks!
Re: natural attacks, etc.
Re: combat maneuvers
Kaiyanwang wrote: Madcap Storm King wrote:
Those people are wrong. I'm not usually so curt, but there it is. The definition. If you seeing something somehow should impose something on an object, creature or area, then yes you would get a save, like if you used a gaze attack, you would get a will save to penetrate the illusions in range that would have to make a save, were they real. Otherwise, I would think not unless it was studied carefully (probably a perception check made as a move action).
Debate that as you like, I will be back later, for I now have to stuff the hollow carcass of a dead bird with wet bread and vegetables.
Well, I could interact in the exact moment I would feel the illusionary heat of the illusionary Balor. Not that I would force it as a GM, I guess.
But propably that's the point.. se my post above :) Well unless you're acting on the illusion somehow you wouldn't get a saving throw. Hence interacting, not perceiving, being the language used. You can throw a rock at it and get a save, but not observe it and get a save.
Midnightoker wrote: RelentlessImp wrote: Sorry, what UMD check is the Monk making to activate that Wand of Fly, again? On a skill that isn't a class skill? And possibly Charisma as a dumpstat? DC25. He can't take 20. You can't even Take 10. go read the core rule book about wand activation, it says point and shoot, not to complicated if someone shows you how and you have had it in the past. over time a monk could figure out point and shoot.
Second, potion of fly, much cheaper and should be too difficult to use.
Sorry to burst your bubble man, but the rules have no 'learning period' for wands. It's a DC25 Use Magic Device check, no matter how many thousands of times you may have used a wans of the same spell.
(Also, potions are insanely expensive for 3rd level spells, and will burn up your wealth like crazy, especially when your GM has about 35% of the encounters in the air like mine have.)
Kaiyanwang wrote: Isn't a wand DC 20 O_o? Yes. I misread it. But a DC20 check isn't something every monk is doing by the time Fly comes online for the spellcasters.
RelentlessImp wrote: Kaiyanwang wrote: Isn't a wand DC 20 O_o? Yes. I misread it. But a DC20 check isn't something every monk is doing by the time Fly comes online for the spellcasters. True but, as I said above, is better now than 3.5 for how skills work.
I am sure there is some way for a monk to fly, like said archetype above or cloud step or whatever nonesense.
If not...
The monk runs away too then :).
The monk and the wizard just avoid each other. They dont get along much apparently haha
Midnightoker wrote: I am sure there is some way for a monk to fly, like said archetype above or cloud step or whatever nonesense.
If not...
The monk runs away too then :).
The monk and the wizard just avoid each other. They dont get along much apparently haha
Huh, cloud step is kind of cool. It actually reminds me a lot of the 'run on the air' class feature, but with a few exceptions. The big one being, it only works for one move action (at the end of which the monk falls if he's not on solid ground), and it's a high level ability.
The spell Airwalk (which, btw, is a pretty good spell for the monk, if you can convince your DM to let you buy/craft an item that lets you do it at will), cuts your movement speed in half for going up as well.
The only way I could see the Cloud Walk trick working at all (if you somehow manage to go up far enough fast enough) is if you managed to get above the Wizard, and your GM let you grapple on the way down.
(Seriously, whoever designed that Cloud Walk feat had a good baseline concept, and then he nerfed it to hell. If it requires a monk to be 12th level to take it, the damned thing should just flat give him at will SU airwalk that's not limited by action periods.)
kyrt-ryder wrote: Midnightoker wrote: I am sure there is some way for a monk to fly, like said archetype above or cloud step or whatever nonesense.
If not...
The monk runs away too then :).
The monk and the wizard just avoid each other. They dont get along much apparently haha
Huh, cloud step is kind of cool. It actually reminds me a lot of the 'run on the air' class feature, but with a few exceptions. The big one being, it only works for one move action (at the end of which the monk falls if he's not on solid ground), and it's a high level ability.
The spell Airwalk (which, btw, is a pretty good spell for the monk, if you can convince your DM to let you buy/craft an item that lets you do it at will), cuts your movement speed in half for going up as well.
The only way I could see the Cloud Walk trick working at all (if you somehow manage to go up far enough fast enough) is if you managed to get above the Wizard, and your GM let you grapple on the way down.
(Seriously, whoever designed that Cloud Walk feat had a good baseline concept, and then he nerfed it to hell. If it requires a monk to be 12th level to take it, the damned thing should just flat give him at will SU airwalk that's not limited by action periods.) Yeah but hey check this out... at twentieth level you can cloud walk any distance!!!
HAHA
Midnightoker wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Midnightoker wrote: I am sure there is some way for a monk to fly, like said archetype above or cloud step or whatever nonesense.
If not...
The monk runs away too then :).
The monk and the wizard just avoid each other. They dont get along much apparently haha
Huh, cloud step is kind of cool. It actually reminds me a lot of the 'run on the air' class feature, but with a few exceptions. The big one being, it only works for one move action (at the end of which the monk falls if he's not on solid ground), and it's a high level ability.
The spell Airwalk (which, btw, is a pretty good spell for the monk, if you can convince your DM to let you buy/craft an item that lets you do it at will), cuts your movement speed in half for going up as well.
The only way I could see the Cloud Walk trick working at all (if you somehow manage to go up far enough fast enough) is if you managed to get above the Wizard, and your GM let you grapple on the way down.
(Seriously, whoever designed that Cloud Walk feat had a good baseline concept, and then he nerfed it to hell. If it requires a monk to be 12th level to take it, the damned thing should just flat give him at will SU airwalk that's not limited by action periods.) Yeah but hey check this out... at twentieth level you can cloud walk any distance!!!
HAHA Wow... somehow I expect somebody to come in and smack that down with the 'move action movement cap' thing. It would be pretty badass for a monk to be able to 'flash step' using cloud step. And it would make achieving that 'slow fall any distance' item actually matter.
kyrt-ryder wrote: Wow... somehow I expect somebody to come in and smack that down with the 'move action movement cap' thing. It would be pretty badass for a monk to be able to 'flash step' using cloud step. And it would make achieving that 'slow fall any distance' item actually matter. Everyone that Perfect self was the monks capstone.
I think not!
Instant teleportation as a move action! lets see mister wizard get away now hahahahah
(JUST KIDDING I AM NOT TRYING TO CAUSE ANOTHER WAR!) lol
Midnightoker wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Wow... somehow I expect somebody to come in and smack that down with the 'move action movement cap' thing. It would be pretty badass for a monk to be able to 'flash step' using cloud step. And it would make achieving that 'slow fall any distance' item actually matter. Everyone that Perfect self was the monks capstone.
I think not!
Instant teleportation as a move action! lets see mister wizard get away now hahahahah
(JUST KIDDING I AM NOT TRYING TO CAUSE ANOTHER WAR!) lol I don't think anybody would start a war over that. It's a 20th level ability, meaning you have to survive up to 20th level to get it. It SHOULD be very badass.
(Also I will note that it's NOT teleportation, just hyper-speed movement, meaning that spells like Anticipate Teleport and Dimensional Anchor don't save the mage.)
kyrt-ryder wrote: (Also I will note that it's NOT teleportation, just hyper-speed movement, meaning that spells like Anticipate Teleport and Dimensional Anchor don't save the mage.) Haha thanks for pointing that out... this seems so dragon ball though. seriously.
Midnightoker wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: (Also I will note that it's NOT teleportation, just hyper-speed movement, meaning that spells like Anticipate Teleport and Dimensional Anchor don't save the mage.) Haha thanks for pointing that out... this seems so dragon ball though. seriously. The technique you're looking for is Instant Transmission.
And hell yeah it does, that's what's so badass about it.
EDIT: Don't forget, this is 20th level, wizards have already been freezing time and creating new planes for three levels before this.
EDIT2: it does seem slightly insane though, so if you're going to use this interpretation, I suggest you restrict movement beyond the monk's movement speed to be in a straight line (enough slow curve is allowed to deal with the planetary gradient of course, but if a mountain or something else is in the way he'd have to stop, cloud step ontop of it, then cloud step along another 'straight' route)
kyrt-ryder wrote: Midnightoker wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: (Also I will note that it's NOT teleportation, just hyper-speed movement, meaning that spells like Anticipate Teleport and Dimensional Anchor don't save the mage.) Haha thanks for pointing that out... this seems so dragon ball though. seriously. The technique you're looking for is Instant Transmission.
And hell yeah it does, that's what's so badass about it.
EDIT: Don't forget, this is 20th level, wizards have already been freezing time and creating new planes for three levels before this.
EDIT2: it does seem slightly insane though, so if you're going to use this interpretation, I suggest you restrict movement beyond the monk's movement speed to be in a straight line (enough slow curve is allowed to deal with the planetary gradient of course, but if a mountain or something else is in the way he'd have to stop, cloud step ontop of it, then cloud step along another 'straight' route) I am definitely going with this interpretation. I like the straight line thing, keeps it pretty awesome looking too, I would probably consider it a charge if you attack too, after all how fast are you going?
Midnightoker wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Midnightoker wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: (Also I will note that it's NOT teleportation, just hyper-speed movement, meaning that spells like Anticipate Teleport and Dimensional Anchor don't save the mage.) Haha thanks for pointing that out... this seems so dragon ball though. seriously. The technique you're looking for is Instant Transmission.
And hell yeah it does, that's what's so badass about it.
EDIT: Don't forget, this is 20th level, wizards have already been freezing time and creating new planes for three levels before this.
EDIT2: it does seem slightly insane though, so if you're going to use this interpretation, I suggest you restrict movement beyond the monk's movement speed to be in a straight line (enough slow curve is allowed to deal with the planetary gradient of course, but if a mountain or something else is in the way he'd have to stop, cloud step ontop of it, then cloud step along another 'straight' route) I am definitely going with this interpretation. I like the straight line thing, keeps it pretty awesome looking too, I would probably consider it a charge if you attack too, after all how fast are you going? How fast you go depends on how far you go, but you could EASILY hit super-sonic speeds. As for the charge attack, I would suggest making a 'charge option' for use with the feat, to allow characters to use it to charge sky-borne enemies at lower levels as well.
(Obviously in order to charge at level 20 you do need to clearly see the target in order to be able to line up a straight-line shot)
Also under the feat it doesnt say you cant continue to use it.
It says you can air walk as the spell as a move action equal to your slow fall speed. Then it says after you must reach a solid level surface by the end of your turn or you will fall.
Ofcourse you would fall if you dont land on something, but cant I just continue to cloud step since its a move action?
Do you instantly fall to the ground before your next turn even though each round is actually supposed to be considered instantly after the next?
Midnightoker wrote: Also under the feat it doesnt say you cant continue to use it.
It says you can air walk as the spell as a move action equal to your slow fall speed. Then it says after you must reach a solid level surface by the end of your turn or you will fall.
Ofcourse you would fall if you dont land on something, but cant I just continue to cloud step since its a move action?
Do you instantly fall to the ground before your next turn even though each round is actually supposed to be considered instantly after the next?
Yes, it's an instant falling. This kind of wording is done to limit the character's ability to stay airborn, it's an intentional design decision to prevent a non-caster from having a means of staying in the air without wings or magic items.
Lame sauce.
doesnt even make logical sense, you instantly fall?
How come flying creatures get to stay airborne? they didnt make fly movements when it wasnt their turn either but they get to stay in the air..
Seems like a pretty weak rule to me and there doesnt seem to be any logical grounds on it. I might just allow it at all times for the monk, all it does is give him a means of travel. Airwalk is only slightly good, not even really fast movement based on your fall distance (nigh 20th).
Do you think it would be unreasonable to rule they can just use it indefinitely as a house rule? After all not being able to fly is a big hurt for monks because they need magic items for other stuff. just curious.
Midnightoker wrote: Lame sauce.
doesnt even make logical sense, you instantly fall?
How come flying creatures get to stay airborne? they didnt make fly movements when it wasnt their turn either but they get to stay in the air..
Seems like a pretty weak rule to me and there doesnt seem to be any logical grounds on it. I might just allow it at all times for the monk, all it does is give him a means of travel. Airwalk is only slightly good, not even really fast movement based on your fall distance (nigh 20th).
Do you think it would be unreasonable to rule they can just use it indefinitely as a house rule? After all not being able to fly is a big hurt for monks because they need magic items for other stuff. just curious.
It's a good houserule, but it also becomes a feat tax. (In other words, if your not comfortable messing with the monk class itself, do it, but you're better incorporating it into the monk class instead.)
One possibility, would be taking their 'slow fall' distances from when it's first achieved, and allow them to 'air walk' a number of turns at a time equal to that distance divided by 10. A monk can spend a ki point to re-initiate the time span rather than land. (Also, replace slow fall with 'safe fall' where they ignore that much distance for taking fall damage, regardless of if there's anything around)
In that way it creates a very wuxia feel, without giving them true flight or unlimited flight. Wizards get Fly one level after monks first get their 'Run on the Air' and at that point it's a fairly important resource. By the time wizards have overland flight, a monk should have enough turns of consecutive 'run on the air' that he can generally handle aerial combat adequately. (Of course, you still need pounce, but that's a whole other can of worms.)
kyrt-ryder wrote: Midnightoker wrote: Lame sauce.
doesnt even make logical sense, you instantly fall?
How come flying creatures get to stay airborne? they didnt make fly movements when it wasnt their turn either but they get to stay in the air..
Seems like a pretty weak rule to me and there doesnt seem to be any logical grounds on it. I might just allow it at all times for the monk, all it does is give him a means of travel. Airwalk is only slightly good, not even really fast movement based on your fall distance (nigh 20th).
Do you think it would be unreasonable to rule they can just use it indefinitely as a house rule? After all not being able to fly is a big hurt for monks because they need magic items for other stuff. just curious.
It's a good houserule, but it also becomes a feat tax. (In other words, if your not comfortable messing with the monk class itself, do it, but you're better incorporating it into the monk class instead.)
One possibility, would be taking their 'slow fall' distances from when it's first achieved, and allow them to 'air walk' a number of turns at a time equal to that distance divided by 10. A monk can spend a ki point to re-initiate the time span rather than land. (Also, replace slow fall with 'safe fall' where they ignore that much distance for taking fall damage, regardless of if there's anything around)
In that way it creates a very wuxia feel, without giving them true flight or unlimited flight. Wizards get Fly one level after monks first get their 'Run on the Air' and at that point it's a fairly important resource. By the time wizards have overland flight, a monk should have enough turns of consecutive 'run on the air' that he can generally handle aerial combat adequately. (Of course, you still need pounce, but that's a whole other can of worms.) Not bad sir.
Have you thought about making this a career? your a decent game mechanic crafter haha
Midnightoker wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Midnightoker wrote: Lame sauce.
doesnt even make logical sense, you instantly fall?
How come flying creatures get to stay airborne? they didnt make fly movements when it wasnt their turn either but they get to stay in the air..
Seems like a pretty weak rule to me and there doesnt seem to be any logical grounds on it. I might just allow it at all times for the monk, all it does is give him a means of travel. Airwalk is only slightly good, not even really fast movement based on your fall distance (nigh 20th).
Do you think it would be unreasonable to rule they can just use it indefinitely as a house rule? After all not being able to fly is a big hurt for monks because they need magic items for other stuff. just curious.
It's a good houserule, but it also becomes a feat tax. (In other words, if your not comfortable messing with the monk class itself, do it, but you're better incorporating it into the monk class instead.)
One possibility, would be taking their 'slow fall' distances from when it's first achieved, and allow them to 'air walk' a number of turns at a time equal to that distance divided by 10. A monk can spend a ki point to re-initiate the time span rather than land. (Also, replace slow fall with 'safe fall' where they ignore that much distance for taking fall damage, regardless of if there's anything around)
In that way it creates a very wuxia feel, without giving them true flight or unlimited flight. Wizards get Fly one level after monks first get their 'Run on the Air' and at that point it's a fairly important resource. By the time wizards have overland flight, a monk should have enough turns of consecutive 'run on the air' that he can generally handle aerial combat adequately. (Of course, you still need pounce, but that's a whole other can of worms.) Not bad sir.
Have you thought about making this a career? your a decent game mechanic crafter haha I have. Many many times. And I'm working on a 2d6 based game that I should be publishing within a year or two.
stunning.
I look forward to seeing the printed version on shelves.
Now that this thread has died down, maybe I can finally get some critiques on my fix to the mobility and damage issues.
Kyrt's Revision wrote:
Full Attack Actions no longer exist.
Iterative attacks are no longer granted. Instead, characters gain additional move actions every X BAB (where, when changing as little of the game as possible, this would be at BAB = 6, 11, and 16)
Move actions may be used to make attacks at a flat penalty (still debating the value of that penalty between -3,-4, or -5)
I suggest -5 with a feat like Multiattack to reduce it to -2 or -3.
TriOmegaZero wrote: I suggest -5 with a feat like Multiattack to reduce it to -2 or -3. I had considered that, but then it just becomes a tax that everybody who mixes it up in meelee will take. Better, in my mind, to just make it constant. (Same thing with making power attack constant. If the feat is something every combatant wants, it should be part of the system.)
Hence why I'm still not sure what I want that value to be.
But what do you think about the rule itself? Additional move actions that can be spent on attacks, moving, or whatever other move action options are available to the player?
I think it might work. Instead of having a standard and a move or a full round action, you have a standard and a number of move actions. The Tome Fighter got extra swift actions and abilities to use them as I recall.
Actually, it would be better to remove the division of standard and move action.
Everyone has 2 full actions and 1 half action a round. Full actions can be used for anything that was a standard or move action, while half actions cover swift and immediate actions.
Anything that you want to require a full round action costs 2 full actions. You get an extra full action every time you used to get an iterative attack. So the difference becomes a 20th level Fighter has 6 full actions and his half action while a 20th level Wizard has 4 full actions and his half action. Spells cost 2 full actions to cast, so no move and cast and no doublecasting until 20th without multiclassing. Thus Full BAB is REALLY meaningful because you get more actions per round due to it.
TriOmegaZero wrote: I think it might work. Instead of having a standard and a move or a full round action, you have a standard and a number of move actions. The Tome Fighter got extra swift actions and abilities to use them as I recall.
Actually, it would be better to remove the division of standard and move action.
Everyone has 2 full actions and 1 half action a round. Full actions can be used for anything that was a standard or move action, while half actions cover swift and immediate actions.
Anything that you want to require a full round action costs 2 full actions. You get an extra full action every time you used to get an iterative attack. So the difference becomes a 20th level Fighter has 6 full actions and his half action while a 20th level Wizard has 4 full actions and his half action. Spells cost 2 full actions to cast, so no move and cast and no doublecasting until 20th without multiclassing. Thus Full BAB is REALLY meaningful because you get more actions per round due to it.
That is an interesting thought. I'll look into it. Thanks for the insight. (It also puts an internal capstone into the full casting classes so I can yank out the weird and arbitrary ones they get right now.)
Yeah, it kind of hit me over the head right in the middle of my reply. Once my eyes uncrossed I had to hold my excitement at the idea back. :)
How the heck is it that every thread I read on this forum seems to end up being a 'WIZARDS R THE BEST EVER BECAUSE YOU CAN'T MAKE SAVES AND RUNNING AWAY COUNTS AS OVERCOMING A PROBLEM IF YOU CAN!!! :D' wankfest?
Just lucky, I guess. :\
ANYWAYS, to the point at hand, the points-per-round system seems fairly cool. The only question would become 'how would we deal with someone attacking six times in a round?' I'm guessing it'd be as simple as continuing the chain from 20 to 15 to 10 to 5 down to 0 and then -5 if they use all six attacks?
TriOmegaZero wrote: Yeah, it kind of hit me over the head right in the middle of my reply. Once my eyes uncrossed I had to hold my excitement at the idea back. :) Not quite sure how well I like the current spread though (the concept is one I'm willing to further investigate, but the current spread isn't so great.)
At low levels, a mage really should be capable of moving and casting, which the current design disallows.
Trinam wrote: How the heck is it that every thread I read on this forum seems to end up being a 'WIZARDS R THE BEST EVER BECAUSE YOU CAN'T MAKE SAVES AND RUNNING AWAY COUNTS AS OVERCOMING A PROBLEM IF YOU CAN!!! :D' wankfest?
Just lucky, I guess. :\
ANYWAYS, to the point at hand, the points-per-round system seems fairly cool. The only question would become 'how would we deal with someone attacking six times in a round?' I'm guessing it'd be as simple as continuing the chain from 20 to 15 to 10 to 5 down to 0 and then -5 if they use all six attacks?
With my system (Not sure if you were discussing the one I came up with) the attacks beyond the first are all at the same flat penalty. If it's -5, then they're all at -5, for example. It's simple, minimizes the attack bonus calculations, and avoids completely voiding the extra iterative attacks (seriously, that last attack misses practically all the time, especially during Power Attack)
kyrt-ryder wrote: Trinam wrote: How the heck is it that every thread I read on this forum seems to end up being a 'WIZARDS R THE BEST EVER BECAUSE YOU CAN'T MAKE SAVES AND RUNNING AWAY COUNTS AS OVERCOMING A PROBLEM IF YOU CAN!!! :D' wankfest?
Just lucky, I guess. :\
ANYWAYS, to the point at hand, the points-per-round system seems fairly cool. The only question would become 'how would we deal with someone attacking six times in a round?' I'm guessing it'd be as simple as continuing the chain from 20 to 15 to 10 to 5 down to 0 and then -5 if they use all six attacks?
With my system (Not sure if you were discussing the one I came up with) the attacks beyond the first are all at the same flat penalty. If it's -5, then they're all at -5, for example. It's simple, minimizes the attack bonus calculations, and avoids completely voiding the extra iterative attacks (seriously, that last attack misses practically all the time, especially during Power Attack) Ahh! So to make sure I understand, say you have a fighter with his +20 to hit. The first attack would get the full +20, and then the others would all be at +15 (which is the -5?) or is it a little different than that?
Trinam wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Trinam wrote: How the heck is it that every thread I read on this forum seems to end up being a 'WIZARDS R THE BEST EVER BECAUSE YOU CAN'T MAKE SAVES AND RUNNING AWAY COUNTS AS OVERCOMING A PROBLEM IF YOU CAN!!! :D' wankfest?
Just lucky, I guess. :\
ANYWAYS, to the point at hand, the points-per-round system seems fairly cool. The only question would become 'how would we deal with someone attacking six times in a round?' I'm guessing it'd be as simple as continuing the chain from 20 to 15 to 10 to 5 down to 0 and then -5 if they use all six attacks?
With my system (Not sure if you were discussing the one I came up with) the attacks beyond the first are all at the same flat penalty. If it's -5, then they're all at -5, for example. It's simple, minimizes the attack bonus calculations, and avoids completely voiding the extra iterative attacks (seriously, that last attack misses practically all the time, especially during Power Attack) Ahh! So to make sure I understand, say you have a fighter with his +20 to hit. The first attack would get the full +20, and then the others would all be at +15 (which is the -5?) or is it a little different than that? Alternatively, the Fighter might need to use his standard action for something else (Like, say... ok, I don't know off-hand, but there are things he might be able to do especially non-core.)
Then he could only attack using his move actions, so all attacks that turn would be at +15
Exactly like that Trinam.
kyrt-ryder wrote: Alternatively, the Fighter might need to use his standard action for something else (Like, say... ok, I don't know off-hand, but there are things he might be able to do especially non-core.)
Then he could only attack using his move actions, so all attacks that turn would be at +15
Exactly like that Trinam.
...Fighter closes to melee with action one (possibly two), action two he dirty tricks or Trips his opponent, three through six are attacks, and if you can manage to make them helpless before attack five, you can use the last two to coup de grace as a full-round equivalent.
I think you've just found a way to make melee frightening, sir.
Trinam wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Alternatively, the Fighter might need to use his standard action for something else (Like, say... ok, I don't know off-hand, but there are things he might be able to do especially non-core.)
Then he could only attack using his move actions, so all attacks that turn would be at +15
Exactly like that Trinam.
...Fighter closes to melee with action one (possibly two), action two he dirty tricks or Trips his opponent, three through six are attacks, and if you can manage to make them helpless before attack five, you can use the last two to coup de grace as a full-round equivalent.
I think you've just found a way to make melee frightening, sir. I think you're discussing ToZ's system (or possibly combining them). In mine he would only have 4 move actions and a standard. (So 5 total)
Unless you're hasted, haste would be re-written to grant another move action :) (or full action in the case of ToZ's idea)
Careful on the Haste bit kyrt, unless you want casters to use an action to gain another action, effectively casting the spell for free.
TriOmegaZero wrote: Careful on the Haste bit kyrt, unless you want casters to use an action to gain another action, effectively casting the spell for free. In my system it's a total non-issue, because casting is only a standard action.
In yours it 'could' be a problem, but since gaining an extra spell per turn means spending two full actions on it, it's not nearly as bad as 3.0 haste.
Honestly, I'd go with just removing the 'extra attack/action' completely from Haste. You get plenty from it already.
Or better yet, let the target make two attacks a round at full BAB, effectively removing the -5 from one of his extra attacks.
TriOmegaZero wrote: Honestly, I'd go with just removing the 'extra attack/action' completely from Haste. You get plenty from it already.
Or better yet, let the target make two attacks a round at full BAB, effectively removing the -5 from one of his extra attacks.
That's possible. I will note though, that if I were making it give another move action, I'd be taking out the +30 speed. You'd just get another move action you could spend on moving, attacking, drinking a potion, etc.
(I also like it because it plays better with enhancement bonuses, like boots of speed or the Monk's speed)
A good point. I like mine because you can let Haste and Speed stack, so if you get enough different sources, your Fighter is attacking at full bonuses on all his attacks. :) And if you can get five different sources, you've earned it.
TriOmegaZero wrote: A good point. I like mine because you can let Haste and Speed stack, so if you get enough different sources, your Fighter is attacking at full bonuses on all his attacks. :) And if you can get five different sources, you've earned it. Ugh, Speed is way too fricken expensive. The only time it's ever worth considering is when GM's let it apply to more than one weapon of speed, and even then it's a pain in the ass.
I'd rather just create a 'speed' armor quality that gives the wearer constant haste for +1 or +2 (don't feel like analyzing which it should be right now) and be done with it.
The above action ideas are definitely interesting.
what about increased round times as levels go up though? that is one thing I hate about high level play, the rounds can take atleast 30 minutes with a 4 person party and a BBEG.. the above suggestions dont really sound like a trim in the time aspect.
While it would increase planning time, (do I use a move action to get there to that guy, or two move actions to get to that guy over there?), I think the 'I have this many actions to use as move or attacks' factor would help. No 'can I full attack or not, lemme roll all these dice', more 'I make this move, attack, move, move, attack, attack'.
TriOmegaZero wrote: While it would increase planning time, (do I use a move action to get there to that guy, or two move actions to get to that guy over there?), I think the 'I have this many actions to use as move or attacks' factor would help. No 'can I full attack or not, lemme roll all these dice', more 'I make this move, attack, move, move, attack, attack'. ToZ has the right of it. With these systems, if you're on the ball, it's pretty simple.
Example, say there's a group of mooks forming a defensive line around a BBEG. Fighter dude moves up to the nearest mook with a move action. Kills the mook with another move action. Tumbles (thank you PF for easy cross class skills) through the line between the other mooks with his third move action, and smacks the BBEG for his Standard action attack.
Whole thing would take about thirty seconds if your player knew what he was doing. (And since these additional actions are added slowly over the course of the career, if you play up from low level you can teach your players as you go, and they don't suddenly have additional complexity dropped on them.)
TriOmegaZero wrote: While it would increase planning time, (do I use a move action to get there to that guy, or two move actions to get to that guy over there?), I think the 'I have this many actions to use as move or attacks' factor would help. No 'can I full attack or not, lemme roll all these dice', more 'I make this move, attack, move, move, attack, attack'. but then there is AoO's and more rolls for each swing of the sword and then you have to plan your movement and so on and so forth.
Again I like both yours and Ryders ideas alot its just the one thing that is bad about high level play for me is the painstakingly long rounds because each person has to resolve so many different things. If anything because you are taking more attacks (which if you moved in PF would be one) it will definitely take longer..
unless there is less rolling for some reason? is that part of it?
Midnightoker wrote: TriOmegaZero wrote: While it would increase planning time, (do I use a move action to get there to that guy, or two move actions to get to that guy over there?), I think the 'I have this many actions to use as move or attacks' factor would help. No 'can I full attack or not, lemme roll all these dice', more 'I make this move, attack, move, move, attack, attack'. but then there is AoO's and more rolls for each swing of the sword and then you have to plan your movement and so on and so forth.
Again I like both yours and Ryders ideas alot its just the one thing that is bad about high level play for me is the painstakingly long rounds because each person has to resolve so many different things. If anything because you are taking more attacks (which if you moved in PF would be one) it will definitely take longer..
unless there is less rolling for some reason? is that part of it? Here's a trick most of us learn at high levels (I especially had to learn it while running a Malconvoker who frequently had a small army on the board at a given time) that will help.
Use multiple color coded d20's with damage dice. Whenever you target a given enemy with more than one attack, use more than one set of dice, and roll the whole batch at once for however many attacks are targeting that enemy. PF doesn't have the 'escape a full attack' tricks from 3.5, so you shouldn't need to worry about that.
It takes some practice to get used to, but once you master handling your attacks you can be lightning fast. (I was faster than the casual barbarian player, for example.)
The rolling is more compartmentalized. For the most part you are going to roll one attack at a time, which is much easier to resolve than four attacks at once, and then decide if you're making another attack or moving on, as kyrt just outlined.
Fair enough gents I am listening.
I would like to see the "half action/swift action" become something better to be honest, the counter action or some such nature.
basically turn it into an immediate action and give all classes an immediate action. Creates more room for dynamic play in my opinion, makes more sense to me that combat can be reactive to other actions in combat outside of your next turn.
just my 2 cents although you guys might want to ignore me and carry on :) haha
Midnightoker wrote: Fair enough gents I am listening.
I would like to see the "half action/swift action" become something better to be honest, the counter action or some such nature.
basically turn it into an immediate action and give all classes an immediate action. Creates more room for dynamic play in my opinion, makes more sense to me that combat can be reactive to other actions in combat outside of your next turn.
just my 2 cents although you guys might want to ignore me and carry on :) haha
No need to ignore you at all Toker, it's a valid point. One I'm already addressing in the massive revision I'm making that's practically another game. (Once it's finished I'll be linking the site somewhere for review. Should be a month at the most, unless the holidays intervene.)
There are tons and tons of things players should be able to do out of their turn, ways to spend AoO's (which they should get more of, and combat reflexes should be a flat increase not based on dex), options for the immediate action, the list goes on.
|
