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You answered your own question. It was removed for racial balance (all races are now +2 total (usually +2, +2, -2). I think arguments can be made either way against either Charisma or Intelligence penalties, but my guess is that they felt that since Cha isn't always appearance and is instead could be force of personality, it made more sense for an Orc to lose Int. Most half-orcs are going to suffer in knowledge (either through socio-economic problems or in lack of opportunities due to their race) while there are plenty of abilities that are Cha based (intimidate is the prime example).
Personally, I think that Cha should never be an ability with a negative or a positive. Since charisma is entirely based on who you're dealing with (why would a half-elf get a +2 charisma when dealing with orcs?) it's difficult to agree that racially somebody should have a penalty or a bonus. But that's just me.
The title really says it all. V3.5 half-orcs have +2 Str, -2 Int, and -2 Cha. PRPG half-orcs have +2 Str, +2 Wis, and -2 Int.
I know that this is mainly to keep most races in the +2/+2/-2 structure, but still... a Cha penalty seems fair for a half-orc. Actually, I think it would be a better penalty than Int.
"Charisma" represents, among other things, force of personality. Half-orcs can definitely have that.
I know one complaint a lot of my 3.x players had was that the half-orc Charisma penalty meant that unless you specifically built a charismatic half-orc, they were innately poor at Intimidate checks, which didn't make any sense. Sure, they could buy ranks in it, but half-orcs shouldn't be penalized when trying to be Intimidating. I can also see half-orcs being good at lying (Bluff) and even, savage tribesmen that some of them are, Handling Animals. So not being penalized on the stat related to those skills is a good thing.
Also, just from a personal standpoint, I like the idea of a magically-blooded half-orc shaman (sorcerer) or war-cry shouting battle-drummer (bard). :)
To me, the Int penalty makes more sense--half-orcs growing up with orc-kind aren't going to be encouraged to expand their intellects; half-orcs growing amongst "civilized" races are going to be hard-put to find schooling and are going to be assumed to be dumb, so they are fighting against that and raw small orc brains to begin with.
Deathquaker said it well...
Yeah, I myself was a bit taken back at first but it really made sense in the end... paticularly the whole layout of the orcs
Here's why...
1-Alot of people are complaining about moving "looks" out of Charisma altogether and in a small way, the change of the half orc indicates Pathfinder's view of Charisma as being a personality get it done sort of thing.... and more. For some, yeah, looks may be the ticket to getting through a social based encounter, for others, fierceness is the key... I think the element for this has always existed with 3.x, since Intimidate is a Cha based skill (and as such, being intimidating by beauty usually works only well in high school situations or the royal ballroom).
2- Half-Orcs are stupid, but they are more of a practical, common sort of sense than an educational enlightenment. This does not mean that all half orcs cannot be educated, we have one in my gaming party right now with an Int of 14... yeah, it could have been a 16 but he's still a good 3 or 4 points above the average commoner human's intellect. The wisdom bonus makes up for the lack in book learning knowledge. This would be true on the basis of a broad (and admitting, stereotypical view) of a half orc... Your typical half orc, particularly if they are an often unaccepted loner, will be more with it intellectually in a wilderness setting than in the middle of a library... where the half orc might stumble over the right selections of poetry or advanced thinking, the half orc is likely to be the first to know where to look for shelter at the start of a storm, know the common names for certain animals and trees, and know which things lying on the ground or off the brush provide good eats. They are also more likely to understand the true intentions of others in a crowded street (hence Sense Motive) or be more quick to spot oncoming danger or threat.
Hope that helps
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As a house rule I've run a few times I've split CHA away from appearance. Back in the day there was a stat named comeliness. It was separate from charisma and was directly related to somebody's appearance. What we've done (not in the current campaign but previous campaigns in a variety of game systems) is have comeliness a roled stat against charisma.
This isn't exactly what it was, but as a rule we did the following (for D&D style stats, it was different for things like Shadowrun):
Roll 2d6 to determine comeliness score:
2: -4 from Charisma
3: -3 from Charisma
4: -2 from Charisma
5: -1 from Charisma
6-8: Equal to Charisma
9: +1 from Charisma
10: +2 from Charisma
11: +3 from Charisma
12: +4 from Charisma
It wasn't perfect, but with racial adjustments (elves get an automatic +1 to the roll, half-orcs get a -2 to the roll), it gave characters an appearance score related to their charisma, but let them play things like attractive but not terribly nice people, or people that looked like toads but were actually well liked once you got to know them.
In a gameplay situation we let comeliness act as charisma for the first interaction with somebody ONLY.
Again not perfect, but an alternative we found quite fun.
Deathquaker said it well...
Yeah, I myself was a bit taken back at first but it really made sense in the end... paticularly the whole layout of the orcsHere's why...
1-Alot of people are complaining about moving "looks" out of Charisma altogether and in a small way, the change of the half orc indicates Pathfinder's view of Charisma as being a personality get it done sort of thing.... and more.2- Half-Orcs are stupid, but they are more of a practical, common sort of sense than an educational enlightenment.
Sorry. didn't want to textwall, but agreed with your points. Also, IIRC, are not the "halves" of Golarion somewhat descended from what was originally a half-and-half breed? Dependent upon further intermixing (that magically will not stray beyond x:x ?) would not certain traits be reduced and others emphasized?
Of course, that assumes that my take on the "halves" hasn't been plucked out of the thin air of my head. ^^;
"Charisma" represents, among other things, force of personality. Half-orcs can definitely have that.
Intelligence represents, among other things, intelligence. Why can't half-orcs have that, too?
I know one complaint a lot of my 3.x players had was that the half-orc Charisma penalty meant that unless you specifically built a charismatic half-orc, they were innately poor at Intimidate checks, which didn't make any sense. Sure, they could buy ranks in it, but half-orcs shouldn't be penalized when trying to be Intimidating. I can also see half-orcs being good at lying (Bluff) and even, savage tribesmen that some of them are, Handling Animals. So not being penalized on the stat related to those skills is a good thing.
I'd be tempted to solve the problem by giving all half-orcs a free Skill Focus in Intimidate, or maybe given them all the Intimidating Prowess feat for free so they can add Strength bonuses to Intimidate rolls, if your only major complaint is the Intimidate skill.
To me, the Int penalty makes more sense--half-orcs growing up with orc-kind aren't going to be encouraged to expand their intellects; half-orcs growing amongst "civilized" races are going to be hard-put to find schooling and are going to be assumed to be dumb, so they are fighting against that and raw small orc brains to begin with.
Intelligence isn't the same thing as education, though. When you say a half-orc has a -2 Intelligence, you are literally saying that orcs are, on average, stupider than everyone else. If the attribute was meant to represent academic achievement rather than innate intelligence, it should have been called "Scholarship" or something like that instead.
I always found it more interesting to make the idea of "small orc brains" a stereotype than a truism -- especially since, with an entire race of idiots, having half-orc characters in a game quickly devolves into having comic-relief characters in the game.
I agree: I'd have dropped the int penalty and kept the cha. After all, it is said that orcs often breed half-orcs because they're smarter, so they make better leaders - but that doesn't make any sense if the average intellience in both races is the same. Sure, better wis and cha make good leaders, but I'd still say that pure intelligence is more important for the orcs in that regard. Charisma they have no use for (they respect strength), and I guess they get enough wis from their spiritual leaders (i.e. clerics). What they're really missing is int.
Here is how I see ability stats.
STR - Physical strength. Mainly in the arms. How much you can lift, and how much damage you can deliver
DEX - Your agility and quickness. Hand-eye coordination. Quick footwork. Ability to dodge blows.
CON - Physical constitution. How much damage and abuse your body can take. How long you can hold your breath. How much poisons will affect you.
INT - Your intelligence. How much capacity for learning that you currently posess. This means book-learning, studies, reading and language.
WIS - Common Sense. Instinctual knowledge. Knowledge passed down from father to son. Mainly verbal histories.
CHA - Strength of character. Introverted/Extroverted. ADD/ADHD? How well you come across to other people.
I agree: I'd have dropped the int penalty and kept the cha. After all, it is said that orcs often breed half-orcs because they're smarter, so they make better leaders - but that doesn't make any sense if the average intellience in both races is the same. Sure, better wis and cha make good leaders, but I'd still say that pure intelligence is more important for the orcs in that regard. Charisma they have no use for (they respect strength), and I guess they get enough wis from their spiritual leaders (i.e. clerics). What they're really missing is int.
You say "what they're really missing is INT". Well, if they are missing that stat, as a race, why are you wanting to give them that stat? That's like saying the Halflings are missing STR, so we need to give them a STR bonus to put them on par with other races.
I see races, as a whole, being mainly educated through written history or verbal history. I can't picture an orc encampment with a yert full of books. Hence, they get their education verbally from the shaman or teacher. This constitutes a WIS modifier in place of an INT modifier.
Also, in order to rise to prominence in the encampment, CHA plays a major factor in the orc life. They don't have debates or intellectual discussions, nor do they have diplomatic voting. They utilize strength and intimidation to take their place in the society. STR and CHA play a major factor in the life.
I wholly approve of the current stats.
First off, griffonwing, welcome to the messageboards!I think that what KaeYoss is trying to say is that giving half-orcs an Int penalty when they are supposed to be more intelligent than full-blooded orcs (I think that this detail has been mentioned in a few supplements and novels between 1E and 3E books) is strange, and I agree with that completely. The real problem is that half-orcs will either have an Int penalty or a Cha penalty, because they need at least one -2 ability in PF RPG, and those are the only two that make sense, but both of them seem at the same time to be good and bad penalties for a half-orc to have. If you think of a half-orc as being an orc with human blood, then both penalties make sense, not one or the other (although personally I don't think that even full-blooded orcs should have a Cha penalty, because of Intimidate, but that's a different discussion). If you think of a half-orc as a human with orc blood, normal human-range Int and Cha scores make sense. In the end its just a hard question to answer as to which penalty the half-orc should have, depending on whether they are more human or orc and also depending...
First off, thanks for the welcome. Glad to be here. Hopefully I will learn a lot with these discussions.
As far as the 'half-orc' things. yesh. They are half-human, meaning they are smarter than orcs. But just being smarter doesn't mean that it's necessarily 'book' smart. Their intelligence manifest itself in being wiser, in natural intelligence.
I don't have my books here, so I can't compare the half-orc stats to the orc stats. And even if I did have a 3.5 MM here, PF might have a different MM coming out in the future with different monster stats.
If memory serves, though, the ORC had stats thus:
FULL ORC STR +2 CON +2 INT -2 CHA -2
compare that to
HALF-ORC STR +2 WIS +2 INT -2
The half-orc loses the CON bonus of the full orc blood. Meaning they were a bit more frail.
The Half-orc loses the CHA penalty of the full orc blood. Meaning they gain the knowledge of how to use their natural charisma to benefit themselves.
The half-orc gains a WIS bonus over the full orc blood. They have a better knowledge of how to use the traditions and oral histories of the tribe. They become better leaders and protectors.
This is how I interpret the stats.
I think what most players do is compare the half-orc stats to the humans stats, since they are part human. When you do that, you will always be comparing a race with mo modifiers (humans) to a race with modified modifiers (half-orcs from orcs).
You need to compare the the half-breeds to the non-human breed.
As such, instead of the Half-Orc getting a
STR+2 WIS+2 INT-2 (as compares to the human)
The Half-Orc gets
CON-2 WIS+2 CHA+2 (as compared to the Orc)
It kind of puts the whole family in perspective. :)
If memory serves, though, the ORC had stats thus:
FULL ORC STR +2 CON +2 INT -2 CHA -2compare that to
HALF-ORC STR +2 WIS +2 INT -2The half-orc loses the CON bonus of the full orc blood. Meaning they were a bit more frail.
The Half-orc loses the CHA...
Actually orcs are +4 STR -2 WIS -2 INT -2 CHA.. Balanced stat mods are for real PC races.. Oh wait.. That was balanced by D&D 3rd logic.. Better then balanced cause STR *has* to have a double mental stat penalty or its teh brokezors
Actually orcs are +4 STR -2 WIS -2 INT -2 CHA.. Balanced stat mods are for real PC races.. Oh wait.. That was balanced by D&D 3rd logic.. Better then balanced cause STR *has* to have a double mental stat penalty or its teh brokezors
hrmm
Full Orc : +4 STR -2 WIS -2 INT -2 CHA
Half Orc : +2 STR +2 WIS -2 INT
So, Half orcs are 2 points weaker than orcs, 2 points wiser, and 2 points more charismatic. The only thing that changed from my last post is the STR reduction replaced the CON.
Yeah, i never did understand that a +2 STR was equal to a -4 of other stats. Especially when there are more STR enhancing items than anything else. Or should I say, items that increased the STR bonus to damage.
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One of the best things I can see coming out of the no CHA penalty for half orcs is that they can now be decent sorcerers and bards. From the POV of an orcish tribe, this gives half orcs an edge over their full-blooded cousins. The tribal shaman or skald could easily be a half orc; a niche that common orcs have difficulty filling. Creates an interesting shift in orcish culture, no?
Actually orcs are +4 STR -2 WIS -2 INT -2 CHA.. Balanced stat mods are for real PC races.. Oh wait.. That was balanced by D&D 3rd logic.. Better then balanced cause STR *has* to have a double mental stat penalty or its teh brokezorshrmm
Full Orc : +4 STR -2 WIS -2 INT -2 CHA
Half Orc : +2 STR +2 WIS -2 INTSo, Half orcs are 2 points weaker than orcs, 2 points wiser, and 2 points more charismatic. The only thing that changed from my last post is the STR reduction replaced the CON.
Yeah, i never did understand that a +2 STR was equal to a -4 of other stats. Especially when there are more STR enhancing items than anything else. Or should I say, items that increased the STR bonus to damage.
Looking an PRPG half-orcs I think full-blooded orcs should get the following stats:
+4 STR, +2 WIS, -2 CHA, -2 INTThis way they'd be consistent with their half blooded kin, and while more physically powerful they are less sociable.
This way i can also see the lack of a charisma penalty working consistantly into it. Because Half-orcs have a good portion of generally more social and interacting humans, they can be more so than full orcs and also, as I think dwarves.
Full Orc : +4 STR -2 WIS -2 INT -2 CHA
Half Orc : +2 STR +2 WIS -2 INT2 points wiser
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