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So, I was reading the APG rules for the new Create Pit spell and it's variants, and faster than you can shout "THIS IS SPARTA!" I came up with this little conundrum. I'll set the scene:
Let's say a level 10 wizard walking through a forest comes upon a big burly orc chief and a couple of his flunkies in a clearing. Winning initiative and seeing that the orcs are all grouped together, he casts Create Pit. Three flubbed reflex saves later, all the orcs are in a jumble at the bottom of said pit.
Noticing that the three now VERY unhappy orcs are beginning to climb out, the wizard decides to buy more time by casting a flat 60' by 60' Force Wall centered over the pit one inch above ground level (so it doesn't hit the odd upturned pebble). The wall overlaps the slanted edge of the pit by 5', allowing absolutely no space for the orcs to climb out without some form of magical assistance.
As the wizard sits on top of the force wall, smugly watching the orcs frantic attempts to escape, he has a realization: Create Pit only lasts for one minute, while his force wall lasts for ten. Less than a minute later, he watches with great interest as the pit floor raises the helpless orcs up and... What?
Squish?
Modern art?
The world's goriest Rorschach test?
All joking aside, I can't see any way that this is not an instant kill for anything inside the pit. You can't try to burrow your way out, since the pit is an extra-dimensional space. The rules for Create Pit specifically state that at the end of the spell, in one round the floor of the pit rises back up to it's original level. Then, anything in the pit is caught between the ultimate rock (the planet) and a hard place (unmovable DR 30, 20 HP per CL force wall). Since the wall isn't actually in the pit, there is no interference between spells. You can't save because there is no where to escape to. What ever was in the pit is now smashed into a 1 inch high meat pancake. Armor won't help. DR and SR won't help. Unless you can escape magically (gaseous form, teleport) or somehow break through the wall (good luck), you're 100% boned. It's the ultimate trash compactor.
Granted, any equipment carried by the smashees is completely trashed, but still, I call shenanigans. Anyone have any thoughts?
Granted, any equipment carried by the smashees is completely trashed, but still, I call shenanigans. Anyone have any thoughts?
If it came up, I'd probably place the character in the closest available space and use the rules for being shunted through solid material from Blink, i.e. 1d6 damage per 5' of shunting.
Generally speaking, D&D spells make it tough to squish opponents to death (cf. Passwall, Dimension Door, Blink).
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Well, to stop the 9 billion posts, remove the flat wall of force (which is impossible by the spell's description) and say an oracle puts a rainbow bridge over it.
Regardless, like the elemental "jumping" from the ceiling or a room crushing, it is up to the GM to arbitrate. In most cases of a "shunting" (blink, teleport) it's a d6 per 10 feet. So they'd take a whopping 1d6 damage and be magically "shunted" out.
In most cases of a "shunting" (blink, teleport) it's a d6 per 10 feet. So they'd take a whopping 1d6 damage and be magically "shunted" out.
Actually, Blink works differently from Dimension Door and they both work differently from Teleport. So take your pick; none of them are particularly damaging, at any rate.
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Its very fun to use the pit spells with time stop however. if you can get them off put a prismatic sphere in the pit and then wall the pit off so they can't jump out of the way the sheer amount of saves for going through a prismatic wall becomes quite silly. Put the sphere 5 feet above the floor of the pit and then drop a cloud kill into the bottom and watch enemies die a horrible nigh inescapable death.
Or cast created water and sneak att the floaters. With summoned sharks...
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Ah, good catch. I missed the bit about not being able to lay force walls flat.
Anywho, I knew it was too good to be true. Still, the concept can be used in a similar manner with Hungry Pit and stone Wall.
1. Drop BBEG in hungry pit.
2. Create a stone dome completely sealing off the pit, making it as thick as possible.
3. Laugh as the non-teleporting BBEG takes at least 2d6 damage per turn for the entire duration of the spell, with no chance of escape, while you mop up his minions.
4. Profit.
Also, I like the idea of filling the pit with super-harmful stuff, but what happens to the spells inside the pit when the pit spell ends? do they just become centered on the ground above where the pit was?
YUP
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Ah, good catch. I missed the bit about not being able to lay force walls flat.
Anywho, I knew it was too good to be true. Still, the concept can be used in a similar manner with Hungry Pit and stone Wall.
1. Drop BBEG in hungry pit.
2. Create a stone dome completely sealing off the pit, making it as thick as possible.
3. Laugh as the non-teleporting BBEG takes at least 2d6 damage per turn for the entire duration of the spell, with no chance of escape, while you mop up his minions.
4. Profit.Also, I like the idea of filling the pit with super-harmful stuff, but what happens to the spells inside the pit when the pit spell ends? do they just become centered on the ground above where the pit was?
Actually the pit is an extra dimensional space so when it closes the other spells would cease to exist I believe. Their location is somewhere else not transported. The pit does not so much extend downwards as it is a portal like a bag of holding or portable hole.
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Actually the pit is an extra dimensional space so when it closes the other spells would cease to exist I believe. Their location is somewhere else not transported. The pit does not so much extend downwards as it is a portal like a bag of holding or portable hole.
But the pit doesn't actually close. The bottom of the pit is the same floor that was there origanally, it has just been dropped X feet through an extradimensional space. When the spell ends, the floor just rises back up to it's original position. Presumably bringing whatever was in the pit with it.
Or am I wrong?
Actually the pit is an extra dimensional space so when it closes the other spells would cease to exist I believe. Their location is somewhere else not transported. The pit does not so much extend downwards as it is a portal like a bag of holding or portable hole.
The spell says that the contents are safety brought to the surface so any unpleasent spell effects or nastiness[acid/boiling oil] would come up too.
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Well, to stop the 9 billion posts, remove the flat wall of force (which is impossible by the spell's description)
A wall is always a vertical plane. This tactic was abused to no end in earlier versions of the game, so I have a zero tolerance policy for this type of spell manipulation.
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The spell says that the contents are safety brought to the surface so any unpleasent spell effects or nastiness[acid/boiling oil] would come up too.
Actually the pit is an extra dimensional space so when it closes the other spells would cease to exist I believe. Their location is somewhere else not transported. The pit does not so much extend downwards as it is a portal like a bag of holding or portable hole.
I agree for objects affected by movement but a spell cast on a fixed extra-dimensional location would not move unless it was targeted on the floor itself. Otherwise the space it was targeted on would be gone. I agree oil and conjured things should move but not all effects work that way. Although it would be funny as everything is forced into that square instantaneously forcing another pass through the horrible effects. By RAW it might move spell effects up with it but I'm unsure that an immobile spell effect targeted at a point in space would move. Since by the spell description only the floor moves not the space.
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I agree for objects affected by movement but a spell cast on a fixed extra-dimensional location would not move unless it was targeted on the floor itself. Otherwise the space it was targeted on would be gone. I agree oil and conjured things should move but not all effects work that way. Although it would be funny as everything is forced into that square instantaneously forcing another pass through the horrible effects. By RAW it might move spell effects up with it but I'm unsure that an immobile spell effect targeted at a point in space would move. Since by the spell description only the floor moves not the space.
But, the rising floor would still push them one last time trough the prismatic sphere you cast 10 ft above the pit floor, right?
Bonus.
Mr. Fishy sees your point. Mr. Fishy wouldn't run it that way, but as a player he would argue a DM ruling that way.
But the pit doesn't actually close. The bottom of the pit is the same floor that was there origanally, it has just been dropped X feet through an extradimensional space. When the spell ends, the floor just rises back up to it's original position. Presumably bringing whatever was in the pit with it.
Or am I wrong?
It's hard to say if you're right or wrong because it's a weird spell with a poorly described mechanic. :-)
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Mr. Fishy sees your point. Mr. Fishy wouldn't run it that way, but as a player he would argue a DM ruling that way.
I wouldn't necessarily run it that way either. I also still have questions about whether the spell ending is an instantaneous teleportation or an actually elevator motion. The spell doesn't really cover that part very well. I would probably have it be instantaneous to stop the kind of cheese of moving someone through objects and effects. Its bad enough with readied actions and other spell casters as is. I my cleric buddy readies a blade barrier and my fighter buddy readies a bull rush to make sure you fall in. The spell is a very powerful option to combine with many different effects because of the ability to force movement through things via falling. It shows a spell that is mechanically on its own probably a little weaker than some but when used correctly can be combined to make an instant blender/Cuisinart deathtrap.
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I wouldn't necessarily run it that way either. I also still have questions about whether the spell ending is an instantaneous teleportation or an actually elevator motion. The spell doesn't really cover that part very well. I would probably have it be instantaneous to stop the kind of cheese of moving someone through objects and effects. Its bad enough with readied actions and other spell casters as is. I my cleric buddy readies a blade barrier and my fighter buddy readies a bull rush to make sure you fall in. The spell is a very powerful option to combine with many different effects because of the ability to force movement through things via falling. It shows a spell that is mechanically on its own probably a little weaker than some but when used correctly can be combined to make an instant blender/Cuisinart deathtrap.
I'm leaning more towards the elevator motion, since it specifically states that the floor rises up to it's original position in a one turn period at the end of the spell. I would think any effects in the shaft hit you both coming and going. :D
1. Drop BBEG in hungry pit.
2. Create a stone dome completely sealing off the pit, making it as thick as possible.
3. Laugh as the non-teleporting BBEG takes at least 2d6 damage per turn for the entire duration of the spell, with no chance of escape, while you mop up his minions.
4. Profit.
If your BBEG has nothing he can do to get out of that situation, then he wasn't a very good BBEG for someone of your level.
you can't put a wall of force across the ground but your friend can a heavens oracle can at 1st level make one with Moonlight Bridge page 46