Multiclass was only given as an option. I was just showing that the one possible advantage requires level 2 in rogue to get.
The animal companion is add on damage, it's not supposed to be the main damage dealer unless you're a summoner. The ranger does on average just as much damage (more if it's a favored enemy) and IN ADDITION gets an animal companion, spells, etc.
I didn't even mention things such as : They can track, really well and for all of you hardcore RP only people, it's what the ranger was designed to do - be a hunter or scout
We probably could have saved a lot of time and grief if the first response to the OP had been simply...
"No."
If you come in with the mindset that the Rogue is a fail class, it's going to be a waste of time to try to argue otherwise. Because to many people "Fail" is coming in at #2 at whatever race they're fixated on.
+1
Multiclass was only given as an option. I was just showing that the one possible advantage requires level 2 in rogue to get.
The animal companion is add on damage, it's not supposed to be the main damage dealer unless you're a summoner. The ranger does on average just as much damage (more if it's a favored enemy) and IN ADDITION gets an animal companion, spells, etc.
I didn't even mention things such as : They can track, really well and for all of you hardcore RP only people, it's what the ranger was designed to do - be a hunter or scout
You say you dont want them to be fighters but then you bring up more damage and an animal companion which only come in handy in combat and really dont function elsewhere..
sounds like you are pushing the DPR thing to me.
You have said a lot of sensible
danke
things but that is not one of them.
A smart scout does not go close unless he has a reasonably safe escape route, such that even if he is spotted he won't be squished.
If the situation is such that you have to get close before you can see what is there then you should use a class better suited for blundering in, such as a barbarian.
You can scout as intelligently as you want. The dice gods can be cruel, and will visit low spot checks onto the rogue, or high stealth checks onto his foes. A fair number of creatures can go toe to toe with a rogue in terms of sneakiness and perception, making it an even contest. you do not want to get into an even contest multiple times, it guarantees loss eventually.
True, the skills system does allow other classes to invade the rogue's territory. I think they should have gotten something to compensate, but I don't think anyone really noticed it during beta testing.I'm going to agree with what was said a few hundred posts ago. The change in how cross-class skills work really stole the rogue's thunder.
I like the PF skill system better, but it makes the rogue less special, since Sir Clanks-a-lot can now disable devices and use magic devices fairly well, if he wants to.
In 3.5, there were lots of skills that you would never consider cross-classing, and most characters didn't do it very often. 1/2 a point per level made it too costly. It was only worth it if you were trying to qualify for a prestige class (and lots of people were).
The rogue was cool because there were few, if any, skills he would ever want to cross-class, and skill synergies just sweetened the deal.
......
You may be right. Anyone playing a rogue would be happy that he gets spot/listen and hide/move silently folded together, making him able to do core rogue skills more easily, and freeing up points for other things.
What he may not have seen was that other characters now have a much easier time acquiring and getting good at skills that were pretty much just for him, before. Granted, most builds don't put a lot into intelligence, but it's much easier now to have a stealthy fighter who can take as many ranks in the skill as the rogue can. That was nigh impossible in 3.5.
It's not based on DPR, it's based on the fact that can do everything but better. That's the scenario i'm talking about.
They are just as good at stealth, and even better at stealth than rogues at higher levels.
1. Scouting has nothing to do with archery or however you perform in combat. It is dealing with scouting, not combat role. The scout should not initiate combats on his own, so his role in a combat is not tied to being a scout.
2. I will mention fast stealth, as it is a big advantage.
3. I will also mention trap finding, as if you set them off then its akin to being spotted by someone who has sounded the alarm. And if you are searching for traps then we're back to speed issues. If you are dipping into rogue2 for fast stealth, are you going up to rogue4 for fast traps as well?
4. If we're dipping into levels then a level of shadowdancer yields hide in plain sight (which again I'll say should be an advanced talent) and the advantage of the ranger is gone there. The hellcat stealth feat also mitigates this for areas that are lit.
5. The ranger gets a bonus on stealth in favored terrain and perception against favored enemies. But unless the ranger has a way to stealth at full speed then his bonuses here are eclipsed by the constant penalties he takes for stealth at full speed.
So I'm thinking that you are too focused on the combat archery that you think is part of being a scout here, and less on being able to scout. Having the party travel at half speed is seldom an option. Likewise is simply setting off traps on your own. Your bonuses to spot a select group of hiding enemies is nice, but does not compare to trapfinding in what would make a good scout imho.
-James
1. If you say combat doesn't matter you are presuming you will never fail a roll, which is unlikely.
2.Fast stealth can be mitigated by....not moving full speed, if you're pretending no one can see me anyway who cares?
3. Urban ranger gets trapfinding.
4. Rogue multiclassing yields dipping into another class that makes them less effective in combat as they get no BA bonus (which is a big part of D&D) 2 levels rogue would also give +1d6 sneak attack, evasion and fast stealth (with the ability to then spend feats if you feel there are more rogue talents you really desire). Though this sounds like a +1 for rogues, it's really just showing yet again that they are a front loaded class and not a class that is worth staying in.
5.You are correct about moving fast, however i showed you the MC option, and Stealth is one of the single easiest skills to improve across the board (for all classes via armor, skill focus, etc.). You are also forgetting that Rangers have the ability to actually track creatures, and gets a bonus to Knowledge checks made to understand the capabilities of the monsters he would be viewing if they fall under a favored enemy category.
The assumption that you will always successfully scout, without encountering any enemy that becomes aware of your presence, or of coming across a target that should be eliminated before he can go back and report seeing you is ridiculous. If skills always worked, yes, rogues would be amazing. However, people roll dice.
The party will always move half speed at stealth, unless you are were intending to speak for a group of rogues. Group stealth does not work, ask anyone who actually plays this game, and also invalidates the reasoning for having a scout in the first place.
Trapfinding can be taken by urban rangers, who don't give up too much to compensate. Seriously though, traps are not what i fear most while scouting. I fear running into a mindflayer or some bull crap like that.
Fighting while disengaging = archery.
I address the combat aspects because it's a large portion of roleplaying, and is the major advantage that rangers have over rogues. If it gives up it's class bonuses, ranger is still as good at rogue at stealth. That's the ridiculous part.
If you don't believe me about the combat, look at the other posts, especially the initial ones from rogue fans, trying to speak of how rogues excel in combat and are on par with fighters.
I don't know how you expect the party to be moving at the same pace as the scout regardless of class.
My problem with understanding your scenario is that i've never played in a campaign where the traps have as much importance as a few of you keep mentioning. To me, this would be the most trite, boring thing to play in history, as unless you are the rogue, there is nothing you can do here. Nothing. That means that for half of the campaign the rest of the party is sitting there with their thumb in their butt, and people find this entertaining? There are few other situations where this arises, as even a fighter can have intimidate and be somewhat functional in a conversation, while people have literally no other options for traps but to play a rogue and be happy about it. I understand that in this situation, rogues would have it's advantages, i still find them lacking in all other regard.
Mostly, they should have a bonus to their stealth checks somewhere. They should also have bonus to their skills somewhere. For instance, if the skill talents weren't once per day, that would be enough to work for me.
However, I, and many other people out there still view them as a watered down class. Versatility, it's supposed strong suit, doesn't really exist for rogues. As it allows them to be a crappy fighter, a pretend spellcaster, etc.
I think my anger over the class is the ease with which it could have been addressed with in the APG (look two paragraphs up), though this will never happen because fanboys insist they are fine.
You are correct in assuming that i would never be content playing a character that solely disarms traps and alerts the party of impending doom. That would get old very quickly.
But can you show me these bonuses to skills rogues get? As this is something that could have saved a lot of time about 200 posts ago.
Can you show me these bonuses to skills?
Rogues get to add 1/2 their level as a bonus to their skills when trying to find ro disable traps.
Can you show me these bonuses to skills?Rogues get to add 1/2 their level as a bonus to their skills when trying to find ro disable traps.
To things beyond traps. I'm aware of the trapfinding business, there should be more to Stealth or any of the various skills that people keep preaching are the foundation of the rogue class.
To things beyond traps. I'm aware of the trapfinding business, there should be more to Stealth or any of the various skills that people keep preaching are the foundation of the rogue class.Can you show me these bonuses to skills?Rogues get to add 1/2 their level as a bonus to their skills when trying to find ro disable traps.
You mean the bonus of more skill points, so they can have more skills over all at max ranks?
No i mean a bonus to the skill itself. Having 2 more skill points after you have 4 skps + int mod is barely noticeable in comparison to getting a flat bonus to other skills the way they get bonuses to trap related incidents. Being mediocre at a bunch of things is not as good as being really good at one thing (i get it, they find traps, what about the other 99% of the game).
Combat shouldn't factor into scouting. If it often does for you, I'll submit that perhaps you're not as good at scouting as you think...
and what is this magic secret or alleged skill in scouting? you stealth, you listen. those are dice rolls. Its not going to take long before you run into something you don't see that sees you.
and what is this magic secret or alleged skill in scouting? you stealth, you listen. those are dice rolls. Its not going to take long before you run into something you don't see that sees you.
I always made use of message spells and invisibility when it was available. Rogue moves a little ahead, scopes things out, and whispers an "all clear," or "I can hear the trolls," or whatever, then the party catches up.
Any stealthy character could do the same, but the rogue's still the best with traps. I agree that he's lost some of his lustre, power-wise, but lots of people still like to play them. Our last group had two of them, and they managed to contribute a lot, even in combat.
It's just as easy to say "this is the tactic a ranged rogue works effectively" and be done with it. Please do not get people to start posting builds when all they need to do is mention an ability and the way it would work.
Also, when you say
"But the problem at the start is we are being asked to define a Rogue's abilities in such a way that precludes skills and Trapfinding, and to an increasingly larger part, stealth, but given that Rogues are 'the skill class', its incredibly hard to do so. Like talking about the sea without being able to use the words 'water', 'wet', 'salty', 'sand', 'blue', 'green', 'ocean' 'sky' and 'fish'."
you're not paying full attention. Yes, i do believe that trapfinding is limited in use to certain campaigns and not a viable reason for a class to exist. Yes, i do believe that people put too much emphasis on the amount of skills that a rogue gets. they get 8, not 12, and how many skill points do you need anyway? With the ability to be a human, and to use your favored class bonus for skps, most of the non-2 point classes will have enough skills to play a fulfilling character skill wise.
I encourage people to tell me about rogue stealth, provided they can show something that only a rogue can do, or something that is profoundly better for a rogue.
Well that makes it easier (throws the Ranged Scout Rogue build using only PFCR and APG Sniper variant and additional talents away)
Basically the tactic to use is that of the outrider, use the party to attract all the attention. From stealth attack target at range (30' for sneak attack, should be aiming to make all attacks at this range) and re-stealth. Reposition if needed. You are not there simply to kill things, but to harry and distract, cripple, poison and bleed. Bluff to re-stealth if compromised, tumble away if attacked. At about 10th level with a mundane crossbow you are looking at about 22-26 damage from sneak attack, more useful debuffs if you don't got for pure damage.
With the right feats/talents/items, even with the negative to stealthing back up after attack (only an effective -7 on your stealth role given the +1 DC to spot per 10') you should be a shadow for the vast majority of the combat.
I await the inevitable decrying of this tactic as not adding all that much damage compared to others. They are all missing the point.
Combat shouldn't factor into scouting. If it often does for you, I'll submit that perhaps you're not as good at scouting as you think...and what is this magic secret or alleged skill in scouting? you stealth, you listen. those are dice rolls. Its not going to take long before you run into something you don't see that sees you.
Well, wait. It could depend from how the DM handles patrols, as an example. The life of the rogue of one of my players changed dramatically after he took fast stealth.
You can (feats and items allow you to, still hard though)feats and items such as....?
Deep Stalker from 3.5 Lords of Madness. Havn't got my MIC to hand as we aren't using it in the current Pathfinder campaign.
Ranged Rogues are fairly capable of doing a lot of damage at a mid-distance. Sure, it isn't 100ft plus, but it is still a range where monsters will have to move away from melee fighters to get to them. You can re-stealth if the target isn't observing you keenly,no. NO changing the rules to make your point. This is about the game as it is, NOT about the game you want it to be. I wouldn't be against changing the game to work like that, but currently it does not. You do NOT have to observe the rouge KEENLY to keep them from re stealthing. The rogue needs to not be observed (usually with sight) Keenly. is. not. there. The rogue needs cover or concealment, and the rogue cannot sneak attack people after the first round of combat under his own power. Your foe is...
Not changing the rules, just presuming everyone knew of the following. To quote PFRB Pg.106 Stealth - "Sniping: If you've already successfully used stealth at least 10ft from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a -20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location."
APG (and an old Dragon Feat called 'Crossbow Sniper') features a Rogue variant class Sniper, replacing Trap features with the ability to improve the range you can sneak attack (+10ft plus an extra 10ft per 3 lvls over 3rd), and reduce the penalty to re-stealthing to -10. Given that Perception to spot DC is increased by relative range, the further you stay away from someone, the harder it is to hit.At lvl 10, therefore, your Rogue has likely got a base Stealth bonus of +22 or so on their dice roll, not including magic items, and can snipe someone for sneak attack damage up to 70ft away. The Perception check to pick him up after he fires is at +7 to the DC, resulting in an effective penalty of -3.
Not infallable, but then I don't believe any one thing in PF is designed to be.
Combat shouldn't factor into scouting. If it often does for you, I'll submit that perhaps you're not as good at scouting as you think...and what is this magic secret or alleged skill in scouting? you stealth, you listen. those are dice rolls. Its not going to take long before you run into something you don't see that sees you.
That bolded area is an opinion. Now if you said eventually it would be more accurate.
edit:I just reread it. I agree if your scouting leads to combat often then your scouting needs to improve.
Deep Stalker from 3.5 Lords of Madness. Havn't got my MIC to hand as we aren't using it in the current Pathfinder campaign.
try something from pathfinder, not obscure 3.5 sourcebooks.
Ranged Rogues are fairly capable of doing a lot of damage at a mid-distance. Sure, it isn't 100ft plus, but it is still a range where monsters will have to move away from melee fighters to get to them. You can re-stealth if the target isn't observing you keenly,no. NO changing the rules to make your point. This is about the game as it is, NOT about the game you want it to be. I wouldn't be against changing the game to work like that, but currently it does not. You do NOT have to observe the rouge KEENLY to keep them from re stealthing. The rogue needs to not be observed (usually with sight) Keenly. is. not. there. The rogue needs cover or concealment, and the rogue cannot sneak attack people after the first round of combat under his own power. Your foe is...
Not changing the rules, just presuming everyone knew of the following.
malarky. You tried adding keenly to the rules. Knock it off. You know perfectly well that i'm aware of sniping. More substantial arguments and less passive aggressive insults please.
APG (and an old Dragon Feat called 'Crossbow Sniper') features a Rogue variant class Sniper, replacing Trap features with the ability to improve the range you can sneak attack (+10ft plus an extra 10ft per 3 lvls over 3rd), and reduce the penalty to re-stealthing to -10.
if most other classes are allowed to use obscure source books and dragon magazine articles they become gods. That the rogue can do so and become a sub optimal damage dealer at the cost of the trapfinding (which was their only selling point) is anything BUT a point in their favor. So no. No dragon magazine or "my little brother has this houserule" feats.
At lvl 10, therefore, your Rogue has likely got a base Stealth bonus of +22 or so on their dice roll, not including magic items, and can snipe someone for sneak attack damage up to 70ft away. The Perception check to pick him up...
even after all that , You're still making one attack doing that (stealthing is a move action after sniping) 1 arrow + 5d6 damage per round is less than anyone else is doing, including the druids pet.
Combat shouldn't factor into scouting. If it often does for you, I'll submit that perhaps you're not as good at scouting as you think...and what is this magic secret or alleged skill in scouting? you stealth, you listen. those are dice rolls. Its not going to take long before you run into something you don't see that sees you.That bolded area is an opinion. Now if you said eventually it would be more accurate.
edit:I just reread it. I agree if your scouting leads to combat often then your scouting needs to improve.
and AGAIN.. i'm asking what needs to be done better?
You are correct in assuming that i would never be content playing a character that solely disarms traps and alerts the party of impending doom. That would get old very quickly.
But can you show me these bonuses to skills rogues get? As this is something that could have saved a lot of time about 200 posts ago.
Then don't play a rogue.
Other people don't like prepared casters so they don't play wizards.
Sheesh.
As to the other that you are asking, I told you.. look to the rogue archetypes rather than the plain rogue if traps are meaningless to your campaign.
Out of the APG I can see the cutpurse as having some interesting things, and I'm sure it would not be hard to make another (heck there could BE another in there, I haven't checked).
If you don't like being stealthy and roguey.. think about it.. next you'll complain that bards are done wrong because you don't like to talk and be social!
Every class has things that you can take from it. Make a character that you like. Don't slam others for actually liking to play a scout, or a bard, or a wizard just because you don't happen to yourself.
-James
You have still yet to list one way that rogues get a bonus to their skills. (more skill points is not an acceptable answer because we're talking about skill points you would have maxed out no matter the class if this was the type of character you were making)
I would enjoy the rogue a lot better if it did what is was supposed to and followed suit the way it has for your beloved traps. Giving them a bonus to Stealth = to 1/2 level, or something in that fashion. My problem with many of the people so far in here, is that they claim rogues work and then provide no justification for it. And at worse, choose to undermine my ability to read, make a character, and my GM's ability to run a campaign.
I understand that D&D is a fantasy game, that doesn't mean that if we simply believe the rogue will be awesome, it will be.
You are correct in assuming that i would never be content playing a character that solely disarms traps and alerts the party of impending doom. That would get old very quickly.
But can you show me these bonuses to skills rogues get? As this is something that could have saved a lot of time about 200 posts ago.
Then don't play a rogue.
Other people don't like prepared casters so they don't play wizards.
Sheesh.
As to the other that you are asking, I told you.. look to the rogue archetypes rather than the plain rogue if traps are meaningless to your campaign.
Out of the APG I can see the cutpurse as having some interesting things, and I'm sure it would not be hard to make another (heck there could BE another in there, I haven't checked).
If you don't like being stealthy and roguey.. think about it.. next you'll complain that bards are done wrong because you don't like to talk and be social!
Every class has things that you can take from it. Make a character that you like. Don't slam others for actually liking to play a scout, or a bard, or a wizard just because you don't happen to yourself.
-James
You have still yet to list one way that rogues get a bonus to their skills. (more skill points is not an acceptable answer because we're talking about skill points you would have maxed out no matter the class if this was the type of character you were making)
I would enjoy the rogue a lot better if it did what is was supposed to and followed suit the way it has for your beloved traps. Giving them a bonus to Stealth = to 1/2 level, or something in that fashion. My problem with many of the people so far in here, is that they claim rogues work and then provide no justification for it. And at worse, choose to undermine my ability to read, make a character, and my GM's ability to run a campaign.
I understand that D&D is a fantasy game, that doesn't mean that if we simply believe the rogue will be awesome, it will be.
Rogues...
The thing about rogues is for some of their abilites, they have to play off of others. They have to flank to use sneak attack consistently in combat. While this is true, no other class can sneak attack without using an archetype or a PRC. So while they require other people there to provide this, without a rogue there it isn't even an option.The things they don't need anyone for, infiltration and theft, they can do without magic and possibly not be hindered by it either (can detect magic traps AND disable them). Another ability that no other class offers without the use of magic.
Rogues can not be torn down into their composite parts and the merits then sold, they have to be looked at as a package deal. They can do all of those things. In an adventure, these things are usually needed.
They are of value to a party, both out of and in combat. They fill a variety of niches that no other one class can fill.
Who cares if a ranger can stealth as well as a rogue? A ranger can't detect a magic trap and disarm it. He can't deal sick damage while flanking a target.
Who cares if a mage can invis? He still makes noise. He still can't get through a locked door unnoticed unless he uses magic. But what if the area is warded? Rogue doesn't care, he doesn't need to dimension door to get past a door...besides anything a caster does require conversation level chanting, unless they feat it away. Not too good for stealth...
This can go on and on.
Rogues fill a niche with the sum of all of their abilities that no one other class can match.
I have noticed each class has been countered by the rogue. The response is what about class Y then. The rogue is not going to do everything better than every class that is brought up.
It is not going to out diplomacy the bard, out damage the ranger, and have more possible tricks than a caster. Every spell is essentially another trick.
There is not a class can do the above. The rogue just happens to be decent, at worst, at all of it.
Yeah you can take a 1 level dip for the trapfinding, but you lose some versatility when you do so.
Saying scouting fails is a playstyle issue, not a fact. If the DM does not use terrain then you probably won't have the cover or concealment to make a stealth check, but if you do then you won't have to be worried about an auto-fail due to true seeing or see invis. I am not saying you will never be spotted, but you have to fail at something a considerable amount of times before it becomes a non-option.
That does not mean I think the rogue could not use some help. I don't think anyone who intends to be in melee should be wearing light armor. I also wish the rogue had a feature to make it stand out more. It is still fun and effective to play though.
No i mean a bonus to the skill itself. Having 2 more skill points after you have 4 skps + int mod is barely noticeable in comparison to getting a flat bonus to other skills the way they get bonuses to trap related incidents. Being mediocre at a bunch of things is not as good as being really good at one thing (i get it, they find traps, what about the other 99% of the game).
Rogue Talents that might be helpful -
Quick Disable (Ex): It takes a rogue with this ability half the normal amount of time to disable a trap using the Disable Device skill (minimum 1 round).Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.
Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.
Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time.
Feat: A rogue may gain any feat that she qualifies for in place of a rogue talent. (Alertness, Deft Hands, Skill Focus, Additional Traits, Sharp Senses).
Thoughtful Reexamining (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this talent can reroll a Knowledge, Sense Motive, or Perception skill check to try to gain new or better information from the roll. This reroll can be made any time during the same day as the original check.
Also, Dexterity is probably going to be higher than other classes.
There are also the Archetypes: Burglar and Trapsmith.
You could also look at the racial favored class options: Dwarf, Gnome, and Human.
There are plenty of in-class options for the rogue to improve his Trapfinding and Disabling abilities.
The rogue should be more than the party mine-detector though. He's no slouch in combat. He's just not as potent as some of the other classes.
We can discuss this topic without resorting to bad posting behavior. Keep it civil please!
Umm I had thought that I had.. twice. Perhaps the third time's the charm?
As to the other that you are asking, I told you.. look to the rogue archetypes rather than the plain rogue if traps are meaningless to your campaign.-James
You have still yet to list one way that rogues get a bonus to their skills.
...And at worse, choose to undermine my ability to read, make a character, and my GM's ability to run a campaign.
No, i believe he's asking for a class feature that makes a rogue sneak better than a druid or more perceptive than a cleric.
Umm I had thought that I had.. twice. Perhaps the third time's the charm? No, i believe he's asking for a class feature that makes a rogue sneak better than a druid or more perceptive than a cleric.
As to the other that you are asking, I told you.. look to the rogue archetypes rather than the plain rogue if traps are meaningless to your campaign.-James
You have still yet to list one way that rogues get a bonus to their skills.
...And at worse, choose to undermine my ability to read, make a character, and my GM's ability to run a campaign.
Rogue talents allow you to reroll skills twice (such as diplomacy, and a few others), use perception to detect traps automatically, follow tracks using perception instead, and skill mastery at 10th level allows you to take ten on a decent amount of skills. Once you get skill mastery, the dice gods dont come into play anymore for those skills.
I have noticed each class has been countered by the rogue. The response is what about class Y then. The rogue is not going to do everything better than every class that is brought up.
the thing is that while rogueS could fill in all of those rolls better, A rogue (which is what you get to play) gets slotted into playing one or the other. you can't claim fast traps and trap detection and two weapon fighting and and party face and the ability to scout in the dark and 56 dpr.
you can't claim fast traps and trap detection and two weapon fighting and and party face and the ability to scout in the dark and 56 dpr.
15 point buy
LVL 2 Human Rogue
10 Str
18 Dex (+2 Ability Bonus)
12 Con
12 Int
10 Wis
10 Cha
Two short swords for weapons. Chain Shirt for Armor.
Feats : Two Wepon fighting, weapon finess
SA:
Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding, evasion, rogue talent (fast stealth)
BAB: +1
+3 and +3 with short swords. With flanking or flat footed it brings his average against most opponents to over 50% for his level.
If both swords hit total of 4d6 damage (14 damage average)
AC: 18
HP: 14 (6 1st, 4 2nd, +2 Con, +2 FC)
Skills: (20 Ranks, 8 + int + human per level)
Acrobatics +6 (1 rank)
Bluff +4 (1 rank)
Climb +4 (1 rank)
Craft (traps) +5 (1 rank)
Diplomacy +5 (2 ranks)
Disable Device +5 (1 rank)
Disguise +4 (1 rank)
Escape Artisst +6 (1 rank)
Intimidate +4 (1 rank)
Knowledge Dungeoneering +5 (1 rank)
Knowledge Local +5 (1 rank)
Linguistics +5 (1 rank)
Perception +5 (2 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +6 (1 rank)
Stealth +7 (2 ranks, move full speed)
Use Magic Device +5 (2 ranks)
At level 3 drop a feat on extra talent and take the rogue talent that lets you automatically detect all traps within ten feet with a roll without having to see them.
As for the 56 DPR, thats a bit out of this guys realm at level 2.
Keep in mind this is with a 15 point buy, 5 less than the standard for most pathfinder adventure paths and recommended. (20 pt buy)
aaand you can't scout anywhere. you're a human, you need a light source or you can't see.
Your perception is lower than the stealth of a good chunk of the cr 2 critters, and your stealth is lower than their perception. Sending this guy out to scout, alone, and you may as well garnish him with a sprig of parsley
aaand you can't scout anywhere. you're a human, you need a light source or you can't see.
That is an exception. When it is pitch black I am not an effective scouter. Low light just helps me see further, it doesn't mean if I dont have it I can't see by the light of the moon or under candlelight and remain perfectly hidden.
Unless it is literally, pitch black where I would be (not common if outside and above ground as it would only happen in a VERY dense forest or during a new moon) underground I suppose you would have a case, but that is hardly always the case. Even then the rogue serves a purpose with Knowledge Dungeoneering, which can come in very good handy. Also if its a dungeon that is lit by torch light, it becomes very viable to scout.
aaand you can't scout anywhere. you're a human, you need a light source or you can't see.That is an exception.
its the norm. This is still, despite changes in title, dungeons and dragons.
When it is pitch black I am not an effective scouter. Low light just helps me see further, it doesn't mean if I dont have it I can't see by the light of the moon or under candlelight and remain perfectly hidden. [/quote ]
If your friends have a torch you're in low light. anything in front of you is in complete blackness. Torch light is EXTREMELY visible in a cave and can be seen pretty much from line of sight. your party is going to be spotted and ambushed with the rogue in front.
Unless it is literally, pitch black where I would be (not common if outside and above ground as it would only happen in a VERY dense forest or during a new moon) underground I suppose you would have a case, but that is hardly always the case. Even then the rogue serves a purpose with Knowledge Dungeoneering, which can come in very good handy. Also if its a dungeon that is lit by torch light, it becomes very viable to scout.
If its dim light where you are you can't sneak attack anything. They get a 20% miss chance and that fubars your sneak attacks.
Your perception is lower than the stealth of a good chunk of the cr 2 critters, and your stealth is lower than their perception. Sending this guy out to scout, alone, and you may as well garnish him with a sprig of parsley
Your perception is lower than the stealth of a good chunk of the cr 2 critters, and your stealth is lower than their perception. Sending this guy out to scout, alone, and you may as well garnish him with a sprig of parsley
Nice edit.
CR3 Ogre
Perception +5 lower than me by +2
CR2 Boggard
perception +4 lower than me by +3
CR 2 Dretch
perception +5 lower than me by +2
CR 4 Gray Ooze
Perception -5 ...
Band of 4 Lizard Folk
each perception at +1 below me by 6
even with each one rolling the probability isnt great
Also you fail to factor in the -2 for every ten feet of distance.
You do not need to get that close when they are not trying to stealth against you.
as for them being better at stealth than my perception? that is also not the case, but if you TRULY believed that were a problem. As you can see I chose a plethora of skills you could choose weren't to your liking (such as disguise) and boost the perception.
if you wanted to keep the disguise, why not pretend to be something they wouldn't want to kill (one of them or other some such thing) before going to scout as a just in case along with a planned escape route, maybe small pit fall trap for the way back or crossbow arrow trap to get the moxie going while they chase you.
Also a thunderstone or smoke stick wouldnt hurt in dire emergency at low levels.
All viable options to aid, most of which is either craftable yourself, or just easy to get.
its the norm. This is still, despite changes in title, dungeons and dragons.
what a laughable hyperbole.
If your friends have a torch you're in low light. anything in front of you is in complete blackness. Torch light is EXTREMELY visible in a cave and can be seen pretty much from line of sight. your party is going to be spotted and ambushed with the rogue in front.
One who said my friends are there scouting?
Two EXTREMELY visible depending on the lighting circumstances, if there are torches along the walls they are not EXTREMELY visible because low light is very prevalent. Torches are also easily exntiguished if need be.
If its dim light where you are you can't sneak attack anything. They get a 20% miss chance and that fubars your sneak attacks.
When did I mention attacking or sneak attacking anyone?
you must have a different view of what a scout's job is.
the thing is that while rogueS could fill in all of those rolls better, A rogue (which is what you get to play) gets slotted into playing one or the other. you can't claim fast traps and trap detection and two weapon fighting and and party face and the ability to scout in the dark and 56 dpr.I have noticed each class has been countered by the rogue. The response is what about class Y then. The rogue is not going to do everything better than every class that is brought up.
Why not. Just be a half-orc.
the talents take care of traps, along with skills.
Now if the rogue is not cha-based the bard will be better at diplomacy most likely, but that does not mean the rogue is not good at it.
Having more than one person that can do a job is not a bad thing. The bard rolls a 1 for diplomacy, and the rogue steps in to try and clean things up. --->"What he is trying to say is......."
If he is the charisma based rogue the ranger is the better scout, unless the rogue sacrifices combat which might not be a bad option depending on what the rest of the party is made of.
Your perception is lower than the stealth of a good chunk of the cr 2 critters, and your stealth is lower than their perception. Sending this guy out to scout, alone, and you may as well garnish him with a sprig of parsleyNice edit.
I was trying to figure out how to say that, went to the bathroom and voilia.
exactly how did you come up with THIS list?
CR3 Ogre
Perception +5 lower than me by +2
CR2 Boggard
perception +4 lower than me by +3
CR 2 Dretch
perception +5 lower than me by +2
CR 4 Gray Ooze
Perception -5 ...
Band of 4 Lizard Folk
each perception at +1 below me by 6
even with each one rolling the probability isnt great
if you roll an 11, your stealth is 17. They need to roll a 17 to see you, 4/20, chance. odds of making all four are 1-(16/20)^ 4 = about 60 % , and a little higher because there are numbers you can hit that they can't possibly match so probably around 70% good.. hardly fool proof.
Also you fail to factor in the -2 for every ten feet of distance.because that's something that goes both ways.
as for them being better at stealth than my perception? that is also not the case, but if you TRULY believed that were a problem.that is the LAST accusation of dishonesty i'm going to take from you, understood?
aurochs, perception beats your stealth by 2 , has scent
bat swarm, has blindsense and a +15 perception.
boar, scent, its perception is only 1 below you
boggard, this you can sneak up on
bugbear, its perception is one higher than your stealth, its stealth is 5 points higher than your perception
cave fisher, has darkvision. If you enter an area with no cover it sees you. otherwise you can sneak up on it
cheetah, Stealth is 3 points over your perception, (or 7 in tall grass) has scent, and a perception only 2 points lower than your stealth. (it wont need perception)
choker, stealth is eight points over your perception, you have it trounced on your stealth vs his perception.
constrictor snake: kills you 4 ways from sunday. it will be stealthed (thats how it hunts) its stealth is 6 points over your perception, it has scent, and its perception is 5 points over your stealth.
crocodile: Its perception is 1 better than your stealth and you're even on its stealth vs your perception.
dark creeper, its perception is 3 under your stealth, but your stealth is 7 under his.
dire bat, you have 3 against his stealth, but he has 5 against yours. and blind sense.
dretch: you have + two to sneak against him, he has +4 to sneak against you
electric eel, you have three to sneak against him, he has 5 to sneak against you
giant ant, can't sneak up on you, but you only have a +2 against him.
giant crab, you have 3 to sneak up on him, anad 4 to keep from getting snuck up on.
giant leech, has blindsense, and +4 over your perception in your natural habitat.
gorilla, has scent, you beat by one on his perception vs your stealth, you have him beat by 3 if he tries to sneak up on you.
imp, dead even on perception, turns invisible at will and has a decent dex (so +23 to hide bs your +5 to spot)
iron cobra, you have its perception beat by 7 (unless its owner sees you) but it has you beat by 5 for its stealth vs your perception.
lantern archon, Yeaaaah.. you can sneak up on the glowing ball of light
leopard, has scent, has your spot beat by 6 or 10
monitor lizard, has you beat by 1 with its perception, has you beat by 5 with its stealth.
morlock, has your perception beat by 3 or 7, obscene range blindsense, and your perception beat by 3.
quasit, invis at will so +22 stealth vs your 5 perception, is toe to toe
on you vs spotting you.rat swarm, dead even with you to spot you even without scent, has you beat by nine in the stealth deparment.
sahuagin, blinsense and your perception beat by 1 when it tries to stealth you.
shark, blindsense, no stealth to speak of.
shocker lizard, perception is equal to your stealth, has your stealth beat by 12.
skeletal champion, perception is just 1 below you, but couldn't sneak up on a deaf oracle.
skum, if its in the water you're hosed, out of the water its a bit below you.
vargouille, beats your perception by 3, dead even when it tries to spot you.
wererat, perception is 1 higher than your stealth its stealth is 3 higher than your perception.
werewolf, scent, no stealth to speak of.
wolverine, scent and a perception 3 points higher than your stealth,3 points below your perception
worg, perception 4 pts higher than your stealth, with scent, stealth is 4 points higher than your perception.
yellow musk creeper tremmor sense (it spots you) But you don't have any knowledge nature... so it surprises you.
So yes. A fair chunk of creatures ARE going to give you a hard time if you try to sneak around. Even if you're running a positive total (and thats being generous) trying to win for 4 incidents is HIGHLY unlikely.
Why not. Just be a half-orc.
the talents take care of traps, along with skills.
Now if the rogue is not cha-based the bard will be better at diplomacy most likely, but that does not mean the rogue is not good at it.
Having more than one person that can do a job is not a bad thing. The bard rolls a 1 for diplomacy, and the rogue steps in to try and clean things up. --->"What he is trying to say is......."If he is the charisma based rogue the ranger is the better scout, unless the rogue sacrifices combat which might not be a bad option depending on what the rest of the party is made of.
I just picked human because i didnt even have to look up what humans get. With that said, a human is still perfectly viable.
By the way, fun fact about blindsense I just read today. you are still flat footed if you cant physically see the target, not just percieve them. Looks like the rogue is good as gold in that situation even if he is percieved as long as it isnt through visibility.
what a laughable hyperbole.
One who said my friends are there scouting?
You can't stealth in the open daylight because you need either concealment or cover to hide.
You can't stealth at night or in a cave because you can't see anything without a torch. The torchlight lets you see out to 30 feet. It can BE SEEN from almost any distance within line of sight. Do you see the problem there? Do you understand that a torch can be seen from further away than it lets you see?
You cannot stealth through many torch lit cooridoors. At some point the torches will be providing normal light, and if someone is going through the trouble of keeping the torches lit chances are there's no cover to hide behind. you'll be in normal light with no cover.
Two EXTREMELY visible depending on the lighting circumstances, if there are torches along the walls they are not EXTREMELY visible because low light is very prevalent. Torches are also easily exntiguished if need be.
And if the kobolds read the evil overlord list, you've just signaled your presence.
you must have a different view of what a scout's job is.
scouting: you go at least 2 rounds ahead of your party
anything less is just taking point.wraithstrike: Why not. Just be a half-orc?
because then he looses either two weapon fighting,weapon finesse, or the fast trap finding that he insists is so integral to being a rogue.
because that's something that goes both ways.
I was not aware the monsters were metagaming to know i was coming so they were using stealth. Boy that sucks.
aurochs, perception beats your stealth by 2 , has scent
scent is out to 30 ft and therefor not viable unless I approach said distance. for a 30ft distance your check goes to 4 below mine. Spotting an enemy that isnt using stealth or a visible creature is DC 0 from a hundred feet that makes the DC 10... hardly out of my rogues range.
So I see you from a hundred feet, and use stealth. My check is at a +20 +7 for my stealth versus your bonus.
bat swarm, has blindsense and a +15 perception.
perception high yes, but blindsense has a limited range and unless the target can visibly see me they are still flatfooted.
boar, scent, its perception is only 1 below you
as i have pointed out your grunting boar isn't using stealth, nor does it no how. I could detect it from very far away, use stealth far outside his range and report back just in time to make bacon.
bugbear, its perception is one higher than your stealth, its stealth is 5 points higher than your perception
within 30ft scent is viable, if I am not within thirty feet it is not. My rogue would spot your not stealthing bug bear who is not aware of me from any distance that I was sneak scouting from (at full speed).
also under the scent description under the track feature it does say as a stand alone statement that strong odors can foil scent (not saying how that works for detection within thirty feet but it definitely isn't black and white, since it doesn't make sense for you to be able to ignore strong odors sometimes and not other times)
cave fisher, has darkvision. If you enter an area with no cover it sees you. otherwise you can sneak up on it
provided he is looking in my direction, and I come within his darkvision range (60ft) which is possible but not always going to be the case. Concealment can still be created, darkness isnt the only kind.
cheetah, Stealth is 3 points over your perception, (or 7 in tall grass) has scent, and a perception only 2 points lower than your stealth. (it wont need perception)
despite how illogical it would be to scout a cheetah for any reason in a gaming world I will challenge this as well.
Once again scent within 30 ft, which I wont come into, and unless said cheetah is stealthing for dinner (not me because at a distance he wont see me) I would spot him since I am scouting and stealthing to see whats ahead and he isn't scouting for me he is being a cheetah..
choker, stealth is eight points over your perception,
this one is viable I will admit. Provided he is stealthing when I am going to stealth and come for him (possible but he would have to have need to be expecting prey of some kind, perhaps on hunting grouds).
But with escape artist at decent ranks and a CMD that is higher than his bonus I would say this isnt even close to an auto win even if the rogue were to be attacked.
The choker is the anti scouter to a T. So to say I cant ever scout just because Choker's exist is unfair. They possess high stealth, range, extra movement, darkvision and they are small. The only thing they dont have going for them is damage, which against a scout you wouldn't need much to strangle the life out of them.
One example of how scouting can be foiled is not saying scouting sucks. It is to say that scouting has its flaws. Also if a wizard were ever caught "scouting" with his "superior stealth" he would be in far worse shape with no ranks in Escape artist...
Oh and one last thing... my stealth beats the choker by lets see here +6 and that is if he is within 10 feet. Even with the dark vision (which may or may not come into play) we both could just as easily pass by each other unnoticed.
because then he looses either two weapon fighting,weapon finesse, or the fast trap finding that he insists is so integral to being a rogue.
Not taking it at first or second level does not make it a non-option.