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Can I, with greater grapple, start a grapple as a standard action and then maintain it as a move? Also does failing to maintain stop the grapple? this seems dumb since it gives the grappler two chances to fail, once on his opponents roll and once on his.
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Can I, with greater grapple, start a grapple as a standard action and then maintain it as a move? Also does failing to maintain stop the grapple? this seems dumb since it gives the grappler two chances to fail, once on his opponents roll and once on his.
Yes, failing to maintain causes the grapple to break.
Don't be too harsh on that rule -- a creature built for grappling can easily turn the tide of battle by putting the grapplee in a position where it can do almost nothing other than full attacking the grappler (assuming it has a light/natural weapon ready to be used).
You don't need to maintain the grapple in the round that you initiate the grapple. If, in the round after you grapple em you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
You maintain it the next round (as a move action), so you may pin *and* move them, for example. Or damage them twice with your unarmed damage.
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You don't need to maintain the grapple in the round that you initiate the grapple. If, in the round after you grapple em you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
You maintain it the next round (as a move action), so you may pin *and* move them, for example. Or damage them twice with your unarmed damage.
Or you can use your move action to pin essentially letting you grapple and pin a creature in one turn.
Greater Grapple is really good.
You don't need to maintain the grapple in the round that you initiate the grapple. If, in the round after you grapple em you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
You maintain it the next round (as a move action), so you may pin *and* move them, for example. Or damage them twice with your unarmed damage.
Or you can use your move action to pin essentially letting you grapple and pin a creature in one turn.
Greater Grapple is really good.
I don't think this is right. GG allows you to maintain the grapple as a move action - not to initiate or improve the grapple to a pin.
It's quite clear in its terminology - and maintain is only used in regards to once you are already grappling.
I don't think this is right. GG allows you to maintain the grapple as a move action - not to initiate or improve the grapple to a pin.
It's quite clear in its terminology - and maintain is only used in regards to once you are already grappling.
But you can pin on a successful maintain check. What's to keep you from declaring you are doing that in round 1? The only limitation I can find as far as maintaining is concerned is that they must already be grappled.
Here's why:
"If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold".
Except Greater Grapple changes it to a move action does it not?
Well, i think the phrasing impliedly does say that you can only maintain in subsequent rounds. RAI, my take.
It doesn't actually say you have to wait, i agree. It was more the sequence of grappling and maintaining that gives me that impression.
FAQ i guess, it is a little vague.
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I doubt we'll get Jason to stop by and specify one way or the other, but the ability to use regular grapples as move actions is a killer with one of the PCs in my party. Once a creature is grappled there is very little they can do. Even demons and devils cannot escape (their teleport is spell-like, meaning a concentration check is needed). I threw a hezrou against a grappling build that should've slowed down the PC a little more, but he was able to grapple/pin in a single round. :(
I doubt we'll get Jason to stop by and specify one way or the other, but the ability to use regular grapples as move actions is a killer with one of the PCs in my party. Once a creature is grappled there is very little they can do. Even demons and devils cannot escape (their teleport is spell-like, meaning a concentration check is needed). I threw a hezrou against a grappling build that should've slowed down the PC a little more, but he was able to grapple/pin in a single round. :(
Examples of overpoweredness (is that a word?) like this are probably the most eloquent demonstration of why this shouldn't work.
Greater Grapple allows you to maintain as a move action. There is no phrasing saying you have to wait until subsequent rounds to do so. A successful standard action grapple can still leave a move action available for the pin.
I'm for this interpretation, too.
considering that there is a hefty feat investment I also took it to mean that you can start and maintain in one round. I mean it requires that you start within 5 feet of the target. Fighters can full attack in that case doing way more damage. Sure I've got the guy pinned, but i'm giving myself 3 chances to fail. Once when i grapple, once when i pin, and once when the pinned guy gets to try and escape. I don't think it's wrong this way, as there are a lot of thing you can do with a full attack that would be much more debilitating. such as flurry with stunning fist, trip atempt, into medusa's wrath, or as stated a simple full attack from a fighter, or even worse a two-weapon rouge. These full attacks do not remove the attackers dex or give them the grappled condition like pinning someone does. this means the attacker is in a much better defensive position than my monk(fighter, whatever) who just grabbed and pinned the mage while his rouge buddy is right next to him.
Reading a bit more has made me realize that this combo can become broken if you are facing someone with very poor cmd. You could potentialy grapple and tie up(at a -10) and be free of grapple before your turn is done. This involves risk but essentially kills whoever you did it to in one turn since they are now bound and helpless. I don't know. The feat is nasty either way but i by RAW it is not clarified. The initial wording about subsequent rounds is mute as it is in reference to a standard action which is changed to move by the feat.
Can I, with greater grapple, start a grapple as a standard action and then maintain it as a move? Also does failing to maintain stop the grapple? this seems dumb since it gives the grappler two chances to fail, once on his opponents roll and once on his.
(Warning: This may sound like hair-splitting.)
My take on it:
- Greater Grapple only allows you to maintain a grapple as a move action.
- On the round that you started the grapple, you're already maintaining it.
- You can't "double maintain" a grapple (i.e. try to maintain again if you already succeeded at maintaining).
- Therefore you can't make two grapple checks on the very first round, only on the second and succeeding rounds (either two maintenance checks -- if the first one fails -- or one maintenance check as a move action and one "regular" grapple check as a standard action).
Similarly, maintaining a bardic performance is a free action, but that doesn't mean that a bard can maintain the same performance two (or three or fifty or whatever) times in a round in order to stack up effects.
considering that there is a hefty feat investment I also took it to mean that you can start and maintain in one round. I mean it requires that you start within 5 feet of the target. Fighters can full attack in that case doing way more damage. Sure I've got the guy pinned, but i'm giving myself 3 chances to fail.
You only need to succeed once to keep them grappled.
Once when i grapple, once when i pin, and once when the pinned guy gets to try and escape. I don't think it's wrong this way, as there are a lot of thing you can do with a full attack that would be much more debilitating. such as flurry with stunning fist, trip atempt, into medusa's wrath, or as stated a simple full attack from a fighter, or even worse a two-weapon rouge. These full attacks do not remove the attackers dex or give them the grappled condition like pinning someone does. this means the attacker is in a much better defensive position than my monk(fighter, whatever) who just grabbed and pinned the mage while his rouge buddy is right next to him.
Reading a bit more has made me realize that this combo can become broken if you are facing someone with very poor cmd.
With the +5 bns for grappling for 1 rnd, the +4 for the 2 feats, it's not just the creatures with low CMD that have to worry.
I do not believe that you are called upon to maintain the grapple during the round of initiating it. It is only on the subsequent rounds that grapple checks are called for to maintain it. Therefore, even if Greater Grapple allows you to maintain the grapple as a move action, you do not do so during the same round as initiating the grapple since there is no call to maintain it.
I believe that it was intended that when you maintain the grapple, you are allowed 2 grapple checks, but the exact wording of that sentence does not specify:
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
The sentences before and after "This feat allows you..." seem to imply that the 2 grapple in a round ruling only applies when maintaining the grapple.
But I admit it could be interpreted to include the initial grapple round.
The feat specifically states you can make two attempts a round to use any grapple option.
Uh...whuh?
Greater Grapple (Combat)
Maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6, Dex 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
Normal: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action.
In the flavour text, it talks about maintaining a grapple.
In the body of the feat, it talks about maintaining a grapple as a move action.
In the "Normal" section, it talks about maintaining a grapple as a standard action.
How much more talk about maintaining do you need? It's true that whenever you successfully maintain a grapple, you can consequently choose to apply any grapple option (e.g. pin, damage, move), but you still need to use the feat to maintain a grapple (not to start one, or "double maintain" one).
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'This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks.'
The only argument I see is that once you spend the standard action, the only thing you can do is use the move action to maintain, but the phrase above suggests the move action can be used to pin.
The only argument I see is that once you spend the standard action, the only thing you can do is use the move action to maintain, but the phrase above suggests the move action can be used to pin.
I agree that you can pin when you maintain a grapple (with a move action or a standard action, it doesn't matter). But you can't maintain a grapple when the grapple is already being maintained (so no move action to maintain is possible on the round the grapple is started).
Similarly, a bard can't maintain Countersong two or more times to grant his buddies a bunch of extra saves vs. sonic attacks (e.g.), notwithstanding the fact that maintaining bardic music is a free action. Only one maintenance per round, thanks.
On further consideration, it is more likely that line means that because you can maintain as a move, you can use your standard to use any grapple option. So on your first turn, you have no standard to pin with. It is still ambiguous as to if the move can only be used to maintain however.
I believe that to be the main point of the feat. It allows you to maintain the grapple as a move action, freeing you to make a standard action, including making another grapple check to move, harm or pin.
Moving, harming, and pining is done as part of the grapple check to maintain.
Essentially, the feat allows you to perform action normally done only when maintaining the grapple twice in one round, using your freed up standard action to do so. Only 1 of the 2 grapple checks needs to succeed to maintain the grapple.
Example:
Round 1:
* Standard action: grapple foe.
* Move action: whatever except maintaining grapple, because there is no call to maintain it at this point.
Round 2:
* Move action: maintain grapple and move/pin/harm.
* Standard action: (optional) make another grapple check to move/pin/harm.