My gaming group's homebrew campaign setting has long had a race known as the (lesser) firbolg. It's a medium sized race of giants. Until recently they were basically just flavor text, but we've now decided that a lot of those flavor creatures need to have some stats, just in case one of us wants to use them in a mechanical way.
Here is my attempt at the (lesser) firbolg, which is supposed to be balanced compared to the seven core player races.
The Firbolg are a tall, strong race of humanoids distantly related to Giants.Average Firbolg easily reach seven feet in height, and are long-limbed and lean compared to Men. Despite their height they are muscular and quite strong. Firbolg have more of an olive or reddish tint to their skin than humans, and tend to be darker. Black hair and eyes are the most common, with lighter variants being rare.
Firbolg Racial Traits
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligent: Firbolg are strong and tough but have little mind for advanced thinking.
Medium: Firbolg are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Firbolg have a base speed of 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Firbolg can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Giant Blood: Firbolg count as giants for any effect related to race.
Keen Senses: Firbolg receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Wilderness Dweller: Firbolg receive a +2 racial bonus on Survival checks.
Stubborn: Firbolg gain a +2 racial bonus on saves vs enchantment, compulsion and fear.
Fight On: 1/day, when rendered unconscious, a firbolg can gain 1d8+Con modifier (minimum 0) hit points as a free action.
Weapon Familiarity: Firbolg are proficient with throwing axes, handaxes, battle axes, greataxes and javelins and treat any weapon with the word “firbolg” in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Firbolg begin play speaking Common, Giant and Firbolg Sign Language. Firbolg with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc and Terran.
It feels slightly strong to me, though that might be just because it seems to have a lot of little features.
We've also included a few background traits and a racial weapon. I'd appreciate feed back on those too.
Firbolg Greataxe
1d12, 20/x3, reach, two-handed exotic
Requires exotic weapon proficiency for everyone except firbolg, who treat it as martial.
Extended Reach trait
When wielding a battle axe or greataxe, a firbolg may extend his reach by 5 feet until the end of his round. Doing so gives him a -2 penalty to AC until the beginning of his next turn.
Too Big trait
Because you are bigger than most of your kind, which are already large to begin with, you count as large sized in regards to the trip, bull rush and drag combat maneuvers. This grants you a +1 size bonus to your CMB and CMD in regards to this maneuvers and determines what size creatures you can use them against and what sized creatures can use them against you.
Do you have access to the old 3.5 Races of Stone or Expanded Psionics Handbooks? I would suggest looking at the Goliath and Half Giant races, respectively for some idea's as well.
Both those races are roughly balanced versus the new, boosted, Pathfinder base races and may give you some idea's to work with. Your Lesser Firbolg seem to be screaming for Powerful Build.
If a PC race is so strong in one area that anyone who wants a certain class would be foolish to choose another race, it probably needs some retooling. Elves in Pathfinder are close to this (wizard), but they get the big penalty to Con, which obviously hurts survivability. You can at least make a case for a wizard of another class, probably one of the +2 varied. But most people who want to play a fighter pick dwarf or one of the +2 varied races, for obvious reasons. With this race I get the dwarf bonus as well as strength, minus a dump stat, so it's clearly a better melee combatant than a dwarf. It's clearly better also than the +2 varied races because it gets 2 huge ability score bonuses, whereas they get only 1. The -2 doesn't balance that out, + the other stuff.
@Gilfalas: I don't have access to either. I think I played a single session of 3.5 DnD, and the group I played with had nothing but the core and complete series. I'll see if I can find it somewhere, or a conversion of it.
@jocundthejolly: Would something like +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int fit better? The reason that I went with the stats listed is because magic (divine and arcane) is uncommon for the lesser firbolg. A bonus to a mental stat would, mechanically, produce more magic users. In this case, a bonus to wisdom would produce more clerics and druids.
If a PC race is so strong in one area that anyone who wants a certain class would be foolish to choose another race, it probably needs some retooling. Elves in Pathfinder are close to this (wizard), but they get the big penalty to Con, which obviously hurts survivability. You can at least make a case for a wizard of another class, probably one of the +2 varied. But most people who want to play a fighter pick dwarf or one of the +2 varied races, for obvious reasons. With this race I get the dwarf bonus as well as strength, minus a dump stat, so it's clearly a better melee combatant than a dwarf. It's clearly better also than the +2 varied races because it gets 2 huge ability score bonuses, whereas they get only 1. The -2 doesn't balance that out, + the other stuff.
I concrue this is a correct assesment.
Pathfinder races all grant +2 to one mental and one physica, and a -2 to a physical stat. No race gets only bonuses to physical and a minus to mental.
I suggest sticking to that frame of mind.
Pathfinder races all grant +2 to one mental and one physical, and a -2 to a stat. No race gets only bonuses to physical and a minus to mental.I suggest sticking to that frame of mind.
I now agree with this comment ;)
Reason: Dwarf get -2 CHA, so it isn't always a physical stat that gets the negative.
@jocundthejolly: Would something like +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int fit better?
Perfect.
@Gilfalas: I don't have access to either. I think I played a single session of 3.5 DnD, and the group I played with had nothing but the core and complete series. I'll see if I can find it somewhere, or a conversion of it.
@jocundthejolly: Would something like +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int fit better? The reason that I went with the stats listed is because magic (divine and arcane) is uncommon for the lesser firbolg. A bonus to a mental stat would, mechanically, produce more magic users. In this case, a bonus to wisdom would produce more clerics and druids.
That's definitely less beastly, and more thematic as well. It accords with some of your other ideas, namely that they are savvy and strong-willed, and have keen senses (3 aspects of Wisdom).
Then consider it changed. I would alter the original post, but the board won't let me.
Anyone have any opinions on the racial background traits and racial weapon?
Also, @Gilfalas, how would making "powerful build" a background trait work? Something maybe like this:
Powerfully Built
You were born with larger hands and muscular arms than other of your kind. Though you are medium sized, you may wield weapons as if you were large sized. See the Equipment section on inappropriately sized weapons for the appropriate penalties and restrictions.
Would anyone ever not take that trait?
Anyone who doesn't want to use weapons: monks (since it doesn't increase unarmed damage), sorcerers, wildshaping/caster druids, caster clerics, wizards (not that there will be many), witches, mad bomber alchemists (probably also rare), and maneuver "fighters" (who would take Too Big instead, as you can only take one racial trait).
It gives an extra point or two to average damage, with an increase in max damage of maybe four points. Not a huge power swing.
If you still think it's a good idea, compare it with weapon specialization.
Are you suggesting that it be scrapped entirely or that it be converted into a feat? Making it a racial feat, maybe with some other prerequisite (like Power Attack or Weapon Focus), was an option, but I hadn't really got around to other racial feats.
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Powerful Build is kinda wonky. Please consider the following:
A Powerfully Built Level 1 character can deal 3d6 + (1.5 * Strength mod) damage. That's a lot of damage.
A level 1 Wizard can cast Enlarge Person on that character and bring that damage up to 4d6, like a fire giant's sword. At first level.
But it gets better.
Said character can get a nice, big, Huge-sized sword and wield it at -2 penalty. This sword does 4d6 damage out of the gate and will deal 6d6 when enlarged. For a mere -2 to-hit, that's not bad at all.
At first level.
I don't think you want a first-level wizard running amok with a Gargantuan-sized greatsword and True-striking people for the kind of damage you usually reserve for fireball. At first level.
A much more reasonable bonus for a trait would be to grant a +1 to CMB/CMD.
Alright, Lyrax, I'm sold. "Powerfully Built" won't be used. Did you look at the "Too Big" trait in the spoiler?
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(Correction to the above - you can't use a Two-handed weapon if it's too large. But the 4d6 is still enormous damage on a strike.)
Too Big looks like a good trait. Not open to abuse, but can help combat maneuvers, which are way fun.
Extended Reach might be too much if it stacks with Lunge. Because if you allow that, someone will take Extended Reach, then Lunge, then get Enlarged. If he's an armored fighter, that's as much reach than he can cover in a move action. 20 feet is a lot of reach for a 1st-level character. And then he'll get Combat Reflexes. At least, that's what I'd do if I were trying to bust your game wide open as a player.
It probably needs a "does not stack with Lunge" clause. This is why I post things here; people always see stuff that I don't consider.
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my smart phone will not read the extras in the spoiler.
did u realize the firbog is an old monster? not sure if it is 1st eddition or 2nd but I recall seeing them before in some of my older material.
I think powerful build is the right type of flavor to this race. Basically, it allows you to consider yourself large only when it is benifical to you. so you ignore all the penalties like -ac & -att and no need to squeeze. I hate how many people make this next mistake so I will spell it out loud, it does _not_ grant reach. Bear in mind it was such a powerful ability that both the half giant & goliath had that +1 level adjustment(don't get me started on how bad LA is and how almost no player I ever met read the rules correct and cheated if they used one).
I think the really big issue was the extra damage potential.
perhaps give people a choice of two raical traits:
1- a +1or2 bonus to cmd and/or cmb(maybe pick one when choosing the trait)
2- the extra damage potential. though it is true that it is better than weap spec so maybe make that a racial feat with high str requirment and bab +4/6?
The stuff in the spoiler, for those who can't see it:
Firbolg Greataxe
1d12, 20/x3, reach, two-handed exotic
Requires exotic weapon proficiency for everyone except firbolg, who treat it as martial.
Extended Reach trait
When wielding a battle axe or greataxe, a firbolg may extend his reach by 5 feet until the end of his round. Doing so gives him a -2 penalty to AC until the beginning of his next turn.
This will likely gain a caveat that it doesn't stack with Lunge.
Too Big trait
Because you are bigger than most of your kind, which are already large to begin with, you count as large sized in regards to the trip, bull rush and drag combat maneuvers. This grants you a +1 size bonus to your CMB and CMD in regards to this maneuvers and determines what size creatures you can use them against and what sized creatures can use them against you.
Also, yes, I do know that the firbolg is a classic DnD monster. However, I came into this setting about 12 years after it was initially created. It started when the group was still playing 2e AD&D. Lots of the setting stuff is immutable because of the extent to which it is ingrained in the setting.
Firbolg entry in our setting's wiki.
For those that don't want to follow the link, here is the entry in complete (for now).
The Firbolg are a tall, strong race of humanoids distantly related to Giants.
Average Firbolg easily reach seven feet in height, and are long-limbed and lean compared to Men. Despite their height they are muscular and quite strong. Firbolg have more of an olive or reddish tint to their skin than humans, and tend to be darker. Black hair and eyes are the most common, with lighter variants being rare.
Firbolg see little need for cities or large gatherings, and most Firbolg people live as nomadic tribes. Many hundreds of small tribes roam Rothgorod, the Great Waste, and Bravenland. More are said to dwell in the Realms of the Free Kings and beyond. These bands of nomads are content with the old ways, and live as hunters and travelers, trading for iron weapons but being mostly content with bronze or even stone. They are a race at home in the wild.
A few Firbolg dwell in the Kingdoms, with a large number settled in Mastillan and a smaller number in Perdaith. Mainly, they serve as soldiers and laborers. Being a far more primal people than Men or Elves, Firbolg make excellent warriors and hunters, and often good soldiers as well. The indoor study of arcane magic does not appeal to them, but the ancient Druidic arts are a natural fit.
The common race of firbolg are more properly known as "lesser firbolg" in scholarly communities because of the existence of an extinct race of giants known as firbolg. There are rumors among some of the outlying communities that these true giants are not extinct but simply waiting for their time to once again do the work of the gods.
I love that Firbolg use Sign Language. In one of my campaign settings I made the common language, Trade Hand, a form of sign language used by traders from all walks of life.
How about a post with the fully updated racial information?
Fir Bolg are from Irish mythology, so any references in 2.0 or 3.5 don't make them product identity.
That said, the traditional etymology is "Men of the Bags." These were the people that were conquered by the Tuatha De back in the day. However, modern Celticists tend to link Bolg with the Continental and British Belgae. The Belgae are linked (at least by Kenneth Koch) to Beli Mawr in Welsh legend, and possibly to the Welsh Bwlch and Irish Bolg, meaning 'lightning' (hence Caledfwlch, Excalibur, 'hard lightning').
Just thinking a Storm giant connection might be in there.
Here is my attempt at the (lesser) firbolg, which is supposed to be balanced compared to the seven core player races.
I do think there's a lot going on in the added extras here. The low-light, keen senses, wilderness dweller, stubborn and fight on separately are OK, but when you throw all these together, you've got a pretty powerful race. There's 2 bonuses to skills, a bonus to save and a 'don't die this 1 time.
I'd suggest putting some of these in traits and maybe keeping 1 skill bonus, the save and low light as part of the race. Move the rest into traits players can take. That would bring it into more balance with other races.
Here is the updated stat block, traits and weapons.
The Firbolg are a tall, strong race of humanoids distantly related to Giants.Average Firbolg easily reach seven feet in height, and are long-limbed and lean compared to Men. Despite their height they are muscular and quite strong. Firbolg have more of an olive or reddish tint to their skin than humans, and tend to be darker. Black hair and eyes are the most common, with lighter variants being rare.
Firbolg Racial Traits
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligent: Firbolg are strong and intuitive but have little mind for advanced thinking.
Medium: Firbolg are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Firbolg have a base speed of 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Firbolg can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Giant Blood: Firbolg count as giants for any effect related to race.
Keen Senses: Firbolg receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Wilderness Dweller: Firbolg receive a +2 racial bonus on Survival checks.
Stubborn: Firbolg gain a +2 racial bonus on saves vs enchantment, compulsion and fear.
Fight On: 1/day, when rendered unconscious, a firbolg can gain 1d8+Con modifier (minimum 0) hit points as a free action.
Weapon Familiarity: Firbolg are proficient with throwing axes, handaxes, battle axes, greataxes and javelins and treat any weapon with the word “firbolg” in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Firbolg begin play speaking Common, Giant and Firbolg Sign Language.
Firbolg Axe
1d12, 20/x3, reach, two-handed exotic
Requires exotic weapon proficiency for everyone except firbolg, who treat it as martial.Firbolg Hammer (NEW!)
1d10, 20/x3, thrown, trip, two-handed exotic
Requires exotic weapon proficiency for everyone except firbolg, who treat it as martial.
Extended Reach trait
When wielding a battle axe or greataxe, a firbolg may extend his reach by 5 feet until the end of his round. Doing so gives him a -2 penalty to AC until the beginning of his next turn. This trait does not stack with Lunge or similar abilities.
Too Big trait
Because you are bigger than most of your kind, which are already large to begin with, you count as large sized in regards to the trip, bull rush and drag combat maneuvers. This grants you a +1 size bonus to your CMB and CMD in regards to this maneuvers and determines what size creatures you can use them against and what sized creatures can use them against you.The only thing I'm a bit iffy about right now is Fight On. Since it only adds a (basically) a cure light wounds in a dire situation, I don't think it's too terribly powerful. I think switching it to "temporary hit points" rather than regular hit points would make it even more palatable.
A friend of mine suggested what I thought to be a much more balanced version of Powerfully Built, so I thought I'd see what you guys think.
Powerfully Built
Your hands and muscles are larger than a normal medium creature. When wielding a large sized weapon, you don't take the -2 penalty for it being inappropriately sized. All other restrictions on inappropriately sized weapons still apply.
This just removes a -2 penalty to hit with large light and one-handed weapons (as one-handed and two-handed weapons, respectively), but it doesn't let them wield large two-handed weapons or huge weapons.
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A friend of mine suggested what I thought to be a much more balanced version of Powerfully Built, so I thought I'd see what you guys think.
This just removes a -2 penalty to hit with large light and one-handed weapons (as one-handed and two-handed weapons, respectively), but it doesn't let them wield large two-handed weapons or huge weapons.Powerfully Built
Your hands and muscles are larger than a normal medium creature. When wielding a large sized weapon, you don't take the -2 penalty for it being inappropriately sized. All other restrictions on inappropriately sized weapons still apply.
That sounds like a much better trait.
There's a thread about race creation, with really good guidelines, really worth checking it out.
http://Paizo/Messageboards/Paizo Publishing/Pathfinder®/Pathfinder RPG/Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew/PF Race Building Guide
Sorry, i'm obviously uncapable of linking it to the thread. =/
It's okay. I found it anyway. Here it is.
According to that guide, the (lesser) firbolg garners 11 points. Removing "Wilderness Dweller" takes him down to the suggested 10 points.
This also assumes that Fight On and the orc's racial ability Ferocity are considered equivalent.
Ferocity (Ex) A creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. The creature is still staggered and looses 1 hit point each round. A creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution score.
Pathfinder races all grant +2 to one mental and one physical, and a -2 to a stat. No race gets only bonuses to physical and a minus to mental.I suggest sticking to that frame of mind.
I now agree with this comment ;)
Reason: Dwarf get -2 CHA, so it isn't always a physical stat that gets the negative.
Dwarf is the exception (which I forgot to note), because they are obviously using that stat value system from 3.5 DMG where a con bonus is equal to a minus to a mental stat. Sorry my bad. Otherwise my statement remains valid.
Perfect.
@jocundthejolly: Would something like +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int fit better?
I would disagree. Still more powerful than any of the core races.
+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Int would be more balanced and in line with the other races. However this is not a game breaking overpowering, as the monsters viable for pathfinder player characters with no level adjust are more equal or more powerful of stats than this.
I don't really understand the construction of the "Fight On" ability, really. Why a self-heal when there are multiple things already in place to represent that close-to-death ferocity? Give them the Diehard feat as a bonus in its place and you're guaranteed an equiv point value to the orc's ferocity.
Other than the fact that I [u]hate[/u] automagical weapon proficiencies and think weapon familiarity should always involve treating certain normally exotic weapons as martial, the race as you've revised it looks totally reasonable to me - the +2 STR and +2 WIS thing seems just fine.
@VoodooMike: "Fight On" was not my addition to the race, if I'm honest. It's something that existed from way back when the creature was invented when the group was still playing 2e AD&D. They basically wanted a way to make it a little tougher when it was close to death. Their solution was to give it a "cure light wounds" when its HP reached 0.
I honestly think the "Ferocity" monster ability works best for what they wanted. I like it better than Diehard, personally. Since I priced the two abilities (Ferocity and Fight On) as the same according to your handy guide, it turns out the same.
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I can already tell you, this is a wet dream for some of the characters I've played in the past, stat-wise.
I agree that it's too powerful in terms of where the stats are, and I suggest this.
A +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Dex, based on your original view, sounds a bit better. We're all about large and in-charge, yeah? Influence that - I think that array is more in-tune with base races. Just my five cents.
@VoodooMike: "Fight On" was not my addition to the race, if I'm honest. It's something that existed from way back when the creature was invented when the group was still playing 2e AD&D. They basically wanted a way to make it a little tougher when it was close to death. Their solution was to give it a "cure light wounds" when its HP reached 0.
I honestly think the "Ferocity" monster ability works best for what they wanted. I like it better than Diehard, personally. Since I priced the two abilities (Ferocity and Fight On) as the same according to your handy guide, it turns out the same.
Then perhaps bring it into line with pathfinder's version of the "Fight On" feat that is found in the APG, which is quite a bit more toned down than your version. It requires an immediate action, and it grants temporary hit points equal to the character's constitution modifier that last for 1 minute. Of course, you might want to swap out the +STR for +CON if you go that route.
As it stands, that racial ability is superior to the feat with the same name, which, at least in context of pathfinder, pushes the value higher than that of a single feat.
I didn't even realize that there was a feat of the same name in the APG. After some looking, though, I think Ferocity does exactly what this ability was supposed to do (keep acting as normal when they should be disabled).
Here is the updated block.
The Firbolg are a tall, strong race of humanoids distantly related to Giants.
Average Firbolg easily reach seven feet in height, and are long-limbed and lean compared to Men. Despite their height they are muscular and quite strong. Firbolg have more of an olive or reddish tint to their skin than humans, and tend to be darker. Black hair and eyes are the most common, with lighter variants being rare.
Firbolg Racial Traits
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligent: Firbolg are strong and intuitive but have little mind for advanced thinking.
Medium: Firbolg are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Firbolg have a base speed of 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Firbolg can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Giant Blood: Firbolg count as giants for any effect related to race.
Keen Senses: Firbolg receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Wilderness Dweller: Firbolg receive a +2 racial bonus on Survival checks.
Stubborn: Firbolg gain a +2 racial bonus on saves vs enchantment, compulsion and fear.
Ferocity (Ex): A creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. The creature is still staggered and looses 1 hit point each round. A creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution score.
Weapon Familiarity: Firbolg are proficient with throwing axes, handaxes, battle axes, greataxes and javelins and treat any weapon with the word “firbolg” in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Firbolg begin play speaking Common, Giant and Firbolg Sign Language.
I can already tell you, this is a wet dream for some of the characters I've played in the past, stat-wise.
I agree that it's too powerful in terms of where the stats are, and I suggest this.
A +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Dex, based on your original view, sounds a bit better. We're all about large and in-charge, yeah? Influence that - I think that array is more in-tune with base races. Just my five cents.
I STRONGLY agree with this set being balanced.