So I have a rule that I think Pathfinder supports somewhere. Neutral spellcasters must choose to summon fiendish or celestial monsters, not both. They can't switch it back and forth whenever they feel like it. Ran a game yesterday were a Chaotic Neutral PC wanted to summon a fiendish ape then a hound archon the next round.
That rule only applies to a cleric's channeling and spontaneous casting. Once a neutral cleric chooses between positive and negative energy it's stuck permanently.
What's wrong with letting your summoner bring in opposite alignment creatures? He has control of them and until the spell ends they'll do what he says. Heck, I could see a CN summoner doing that then making them fight for his own amusement.
Clerics have alignments and have gods with alignments which limit which creatures they can summon. Summon Monster have the good or evil templet based on your alignment.
Neutral cleric (by the spell) can choose to select good or fiendish templet. , i would say that if a DM wants to restrict his neutral cleric to only the good or evil templet based on which choose the cleric made in spontaneous casting; i would see nothing wrong with that. ((Although by RAW, its the neutral cleric choose)).
Wizard, Sorcerer's, Bards, do not get their magic power from gods, and their for can summon any creature they wish. Although summon some creature repeatedly may cause a alignment shift, depending on DM.
Now with that said, some creature have a subtype listing. Which means that summoning a bone devil is alway considered a Lawful Evil spell. A Hound Archon when summoned is alway considered a Lawful Good spell.
Heck, I could see a CN summoner doing that then making them fight for his own amusement.
In that case I would let the monsters roll a save and allow them wail on the idiot that summoned them.
Clerics have alignments and have gods with alignments which limit which creatures they can summon. Summon Monster have the good or evil templet based on your alignment.
Neutral cleric (by the spell) can choose to select good or fiendish templet. , i would say that if a DM wants to restrict his neutral cleric to only the good or evil templet based on which choose the cleric made in spontaneous casting; i would see nothing wrong with that. ((Although by RAW, its the neutral cleric choose)).
Wizard, Sorcerer's, Bards, do not get their magic power from gods, and their for can summon any creature they wish. Although summon some creature repeatedly may cause a alignment shift, depending on DM.
Now with that said, some creature have a subtype listing. Which means that summoning a bone devil is alway considered a Lawful Evil spell. A Hound Archon when summoned is alway considered a Lawful Good spell.
Chaotic Neutral Sorcerer with the Abysal bloodline.
Arcanists aren't granted magic power. They take it. Thus, there's nobody to tell them "you can't use that spell, you must be evil to do that!"
Thus, even a lawful good conjurer can conjure up a demon.
The spell does have the [evil] descriptor, for in the case of summoning spells, I always considered those in place to limit availability for priests:
A lawful good cleric of Iomedae summoning creature will basically get something from Iomedae's divine hosts, or some of her extraplanar associates. Since the only way she deals with demons is with righteous steel, she won't have any demons to send her priests - and wouldn't want them conjure up those treacherous monsters, anyway, since that cleric represents the Inheritor's glory, which is not to be sullied.
A wizard, on the other hand, represents only himself. If he can live with summoning demons, he'll be able to summon them with impunity. His sould should not be tarnished more than a very very, little bit by the mere summoning.
It's all in what you do with the critter:
If you call up a devil to send into the orphanage to rescue kids, because those devils are immune to fire and can get everywhere, that's certainly far more significant than the barely evil deed of conjuring a devil.
In the same vein, if you call an angel and tell it to commit atrocities that would make a Graul flinch, it's definitely a big step towards evil, not at all mitigated by the goodly act of calling an angel.
And when we're talking about neutral arcanists calling demons today and angels tomorrow: Well, depending on how the GM deals with summoning and your alignment being changed by that, he must alternate between the two, or he'll either slip towards evil or towards good! :D
In that case I would let the monsters roll a save and allow them wail on the idiot that summoned them.Heck, I could see a CN summoner doing that then making them fight for his own amusement.
Someone hasn't read the differences between a summoned creatuer and a called creature.
Also someone doesn't realize that only clerics are restricted in what they can and can't summon -- and this is only because they are restricted from casting spells of a different alignment (summoning spells gain an alignment type based on what is summoned).
No other class has these issues.
Chaotic Neutral Sorcerer with the Abysal bloodline.
Wizard, Sorcerer's, Bards, do not get their magic power from gods, and their for can summon any creature they wish. Although summon some creature repeatedly may cause a alignment shift, depending on DM.
One of the advantage to being a Wizard/Sorcerer, is that they do not have alignment, (abyssal blood not withstanding). They pay for this also with lowest BAB and only 1 good save.
Even a Good sorcerer and summon Evil monsters, or vise versa. So let him summon what ever he wants. Although, if he repeatedly keep summon good creatures, or vise versa, you might question his alignment.
Chaotic Neutral = Sounds like summoning both good & evil, fliping back and forth, sound like he is fitting the bill here.
I have a sick idea to play an evil wizard who summons good outsiders (like Couatls, hound archons, etc) and sends them out to just randomly kill innocents. After all, he can cast spells of any alignment, and they have to do what he tells them. It'd be very amusing. Especially if you were evil...
I have a sick idea to play an evil wizard who summons good outsiders (like Couatls, hound archons, etc) and sends them out to just randomly kill innocents. After all, he can cast spells of any alignment, and they have to do what he tells them. It'd be very amusing. Especially if you were evil...
Yeah this is a rather common/old idea that comes up again everytime this subject is broached again.
The Malacoker from 3.5 Complete Scoundrel did the same thing in reverse (good summoning evil and forcing it to do good).
I have a sick idea to play an evil wizard who summons good outsiders (like Couatls, hound archons, etc) and sends them out to just randomly kill innocents. After all, he can cast spells of any alignment, and they have to do what he tells them. It'd be very amusing. Especially if you were evil...
Ya that is one way to balance out the summon monster (subtype) alignment effect. Hehehe. Yes, and Good wizard summoning demons to save people.
Do this once in a while, and most GM let is slid as just the effect of the spell.
Funny tho, but do it all the time, and many GM will start having the "PC" pop out and get summoned by a monster to fight for them; or worse yet, that Couatl decides to come visit you on his own... Then can ethereal jaunt or plane shift at will. Even Hound Archons have Archons bosses, that they can ask for a nice little trip to the material plane, to have a nice little talk with the "PC's".
I have a sick idea to play an evil wizard who summons good outsiders (like Couatls, hound archons, etc) and sends them out to just randomly kill innocents. After all, he can cast spells of any alignment, and they have to do what he tells them. It'd be very amusing. Especially if you were evil...
Amusing, but it's also like wiring up a live video feed to the FBI while you go bank robbing. Unlikely to end well.
If he makes a habit of doing so, he risks corrupting his alignment.Arcanists aren't granted magic power. They take it. Thus, there's nobody to tell them "you can't use that spell, you must be evil to do that!"
Thus, even a lawful good conjurer can conjure up a demon.
This may also differ from campaign from campaign. IIRC, it nowhere says explicitly that casting [evil] spells is an evil action (unless the dev's have stated otherwise) though it does makes sense. And the amount of evil isn't ever mentioned; it doesn't say if it's equal to insulting someone or to eating babies. Thus, in some campaigns, the wizard might do a lot more evil things on a daily basis while still qualifying for a lawful good alignment; vanity is a sin all to common in good men, and in powerful men. An LG wizard capable of summoning demons fit both.