Hiya.
My group and I gave PF a whirl when it first came out. We found it to be a good improvement over 3/3.5...but not *quite* "good enough". Some of the main sticking points we had were that the core idea of only gaining skills (or getting better in them) and feats are still hard-coded into the system.
So, I did some rules wrangling and have come up with a system for improving skills and adding feats via 'spending xp'. The gist of it that the cost is based on the characters current level, and (with regards to feats) cost increaseing per 'extra' feat you've acquired.
My question to you experienced PF'ers...does anyone see any *huge* problem with this? Our group isn't exceedingly keen on the whole min/max thing, mostly taking stuff to fit their character concept. We also don't much care if some particular race, spell, magic item, class, etc. is blatantly "more powerful" than others...nobody tries to "one up" anyone else. In short, there pretty easy going players with a focus on role-playing and just having fun.
Any input would be appreciated. :)
^_^
Paul L. Ming
The difficult part would be the pricing, IMO. How many extra feats are worth being a level behind? Three? Five? I'd have to think about it; it would certainly depend on the class, as well.
There's nothing wrong with the basic idea, though; I know other people have tried something similar.
Would you mind posting up some of the exact rules?
I would imagine Feats are probably pretty expensive, but there have definitely been some times as a player I would have spent some XP for a skill point. You know, you find yourself tasked to go clear out a crypt full of undead and realize nobody has taken Know: Religion. A situation like that is even fairly RP-able, as you can just have your character read up/learn from an NPC for a day or two to show how the skill point was earned without leveling up.
To a fighter or a ranger the lvl behund might not mean so much. But what about a cleric or a sorcerer? And if your players need so desparate one or two extra feats give them for completing some kind of quest or by playing right their characters. Everything in the game is DM's desicions :D
I do something similar to this in my 3.5 game (still haven't totally switched to PF).
Extra feats can be purchased for 20% of the difference between the XP needed for the character's next level and the minimum needed for the character's current level. In other words, I place 5 feats as being roughly equivalent to a level.
Extra skill points can be purchased via a feat that grants 5 extra skill points each time it is taken.
I don't like it. XP is not a resource. You can't get the ability of hitting extra hard by paying for it with your insight that goblins seem to hate dogs, or the sights you have seen in the Cristal City, or something like that.
The part about feats being hard-coded into the system is a by-product of the fact that Pathfinder is a level-based system:
XP aren't "spent" on anything, they're accumulated, and whenever you earn enough, you're considered to have gained a level, gaining all associated benefits.
Other games (like WoD) don't have levels. There, you earn XP, which you spend on, well, everything: You can increase your attributes, get skill dots, get some advantages, and if you place some supernatural creature (which is what WoD is all about), you can usually learn some new supernatural stuff or increase your power level (the closest the game comes to a level - and usually not easy).
You could turn Pathfinder into such a game, of course, but you would probably have to redo everything from start, because even more than fixed classes and class abilities, the concept of levels and the associated benefits (saves, attack bonuses, hit points) is a very basic concept in Pathfinder.
Using a level based system and then welding some free-form stuff onto it would prove quite hard to do right, I'd say:
Make it too cheap and you'll find people getting lots and lots of feats and becoming more powerful than they're supposed to be on this level
Make it too expensive and those who buy feats fall behind, meaning they are constantly in greater danger than the rest.
I personally would instead do something else, like having more magic items that grant you feats (so you pay for them. Make them slot-less and you won't interfere with other stuff), allow trade-ins of various class abilities or stuff for feats, or just increase the number of feats everybody gets. Same with skill points.
Just remember that adjustments like this will always affect the party's power level, so keep a close eye on things and adjust if appropriate. (Especially since monsters and pre-made NPCs don't get that stuff by default so you'll either have weaker enemies than usual, or some work on your hands as you add feats for them).
I love rules like this, but you can just forget about Challenge Rating working as anything other than a relative comparison of monster power afterward.
So far, I think the best solutions to this sort of thing are tying feat acquisition to:
1) removing certain prerequisites (For example: removing the Int requirement for Combat Expertise)
2) scaling certain feats (For example: Two-Weapon Fighting)
3) scaling feat acquisition with BAB (For example: You get a combat feat for each point of BAB you have)
Each has their pros and cons. But all allow either easier access to feats the players want, more feats overall, or both.
I think skills don't need improvement as far as increasing the bonus is concerned. But as far as diversifying: I like the rather common house rule of giving all classes with 2+Int/level a boost to 4+Int/level. Or just giving all classes an extra 2 points/level. Neither one is game-breaking.
I'd rather give out feats and skill points for something other than XP. One of the best improvements in Pathfinder was that they took the XP cost out of crafting magic items, meaning that parties can operate on a flat rate of experience and always be of a level with one another. Spending XP as an individual would throw that balance out of whack.
Instead of selling them for XP, I would suggest:
- Place magic items that grant feats or skill levels. There are already examples of this in the core book, so you're not changing any rules.
- Calculate the cost of said items, and let the PCs pay that much for "expert training" from NPCs. You add a nice roleplay element to the game, and use existing rules to establish prices.
- Periodically give out extra feats or skill points to everyone.
- Periodically give out extra feats or skill points that can only be used to purchase certain kinds of feats or skills.
I did that last one, and had such great success that other GMs who had played in my game copied my rules for it. By limiting the list (or requiring GM approval, if you don't feel like working out a list) my players had a number of extra feats that were interesting and in-character, but they didn't grow too powerful because of it. "Skill Focus: Sailing" might be cool for the pirate character, but it's not going to break your campaign!
Instead of selling them for XP, I would suggest:
- Place magic items that grant feats or skill levels. There are already examples of this in the core book, so you're not changing any rules.
- Calculate the cost of said items, and let the PCs pay that much for "expert training" from NPCs. You add a nice roleplay element to the game, and use existing rules to establish prices.
- Periodically give out extra feats or skill points to everyone.
- Periodically give out extra feats or skill points that can only be used to purchase certain kinds of feats or skills.
To me, this seems like a very workable system that is probably better than an XP for Feats purchase system.
While certainly doable, I see a couple of problems with the approach of using XP as a bonus generator of ablilities. First is are there any restrictions? If a player can 'buy' feats or skill ranks, why not HP or bonuses to saving throws? How about Class Special abilities or spell slots? It's always a question of where do you stop, especially when you are speculating stepping outside the existing rules to do it.
With limiters in place, this can work fine. I would say that some of the ideas presented here by others would work better, because they are using the framework of the rules to work within.
All that being said, if you are going to do this, do it full-throttle. Try something like this:
Character creation buys are free.
Skills -- initial buy 250 exp/ level buy 100*present level for class skills. Add 50 exp for non-class skills. Each +/- 1 Int modifier subtracts/adds 10 to the cost of the skill. Minimum cost is 10
EX. Amiri, a level 4 barbarian, has 10000 exp and wishes to increase her Perception from 3 to 4, Sense Motive from 1 to 2 and gain Linguistics. This would cost 300(P), 200(SM), and 300(L). This will bring her down to 9200.
EX. Amiri, a level 4 barbarian with 14 INT, has 10000 exp and wish to increase her Perception from 3 to 4, Sense Motive from 1 to 2 and gain Linguistics. This would cost 280(P), 180(SM), and 280(L). This will bring her down to 9260.
feats -- 500 exp. Note - subtract 100 exp from cost if part of chain (ex. Critical Focus = 500 exp; Tiring Critical = 400 exp; Exhausting Critical = 300 exp). If prerequisites are not met, triple the cost of the feat.
class feature -- 100 exp*level allowed (ex. Combat Style for Rangers would cost 400 exp {200 exp*level 2 Ranger class feature}) Cost is triple if you are not of the required level for the class feature. Other class features allowed at triple cost. Yes, this is cumulative. Class features that are part of a chain have to be bought in progression, such as levels of Sneak Attack or Smite Evil. Each class feature can only be bought once.
EX. Amiri, a level 4 barbarian, has 10000 exp has yet to gain the 2nd level class feature uncanny dodge which will cost her 200 exp. bringing her down to 9800 exp.
EX. Amiri, a level 4 barbarian, has 10000 exp wants to gain the 5th level class feature improved uncanny dodge, which will cost her 1500 exp. This will bring her down to 8500 exp.
EX. Amiri, a level 4 barbarian, has 10000 exp wants to gain Sneak attack from the Rogue 1st level. This will cost 900 exp and will bring her down to 9100 exp.
*Note -- specific feats or bonus feats as part of class features cost as regular feats but at a reduced cost by 100 exp.
EX. A fighters bonus feats cost 400 exp, or even less if part of a chain.
Limitation -- players are allowed to spend enough exp to bring them down into the range of the previous level but can never spend enough to drop the amount to two lower levels. While this does not affect regular game play, if at any time the character suffers from energy drain or negative levels while in this experience deficit, the result is as if the character has an extra level of drain For example, a character has recently spent enough exp to drop them below their minimum for their present level. This has no effect on game play. They are attacked by an undead with the Energy Drain power for 1 level, which for them will be effectively 2 levels. This can be countered by gaining enough exp to bring them above their level minimum (still leaving them with 1 level of Energy Drain), or making their saving throw to counter the Energy Drain, whichever comes first.
On an aside you could seperate everything into different catagories like:
BAB/HP
Saves
Special
Skills
Feats
Have each Catagory to spend experience on and use the appropriate experience to each catagory at something like 200 exp/level. The average of the catagories (rounded down) is the level of the character.
So if you had -- Amiri, a level 4 barbarian, has 10000 exp
You could have
BAB/HP = 4 (400+600+800 exp) = +4/4d12
Saves = 4 (400+600+800 exp) = +4/+1/+1
Special = 4 (400+600+800 exp) = Fast Move/Rage/Rage power/uncanny dodge/Trap sense +1/Rage power
Skills = 4 (400+600+800 exp) = (4 + Int Mod) * 4
Feats = 4 (400+600+800 exp) = 1st and 2nd feats
Total = 9000 exp (put the extra 1000 wherever)
Average level = 4
Or
BAB/HP = 6 (400+600+800+1000+1200 exp) = +6/6d12
Saves = 2 (400 exp) = +3/+0/+0
Special = 5 (400+600+800+1000 exp) = Fast Move/Rage/Rage power/uncanny dodge/Trap sense +1/Rage power/Improved Uncanny dodge
Skills = 4 (400+600+800 exp) = (4 + Int Mod) * 4
Feats = 3 (400+600 exp) = 1st and 2nd feats
Total = 10000 exp
Average level = 4
The advantage of this style is customization. You can create the character however and whenever you wanted. The downsides is making something too lop-sided, and I suppose feats, spending experience on a total blank level. This could be adjusted I suppose but it would throw off the average level.
I don't like it. XP is not a resource. You can't get the ability of hitting extra hard by paying for it with your insight that goblins seem to hate dogs, or the sights you have seen in the Cristal City, or something like that.
The part about feats being hard-coded into the system is a by-product of the fact that Pathfinder is a level-based system:
XP aren't "spent" on anything, they're accumulated, and whenever you earn enough, you're considered to have gained a level, gaining all associated benefits.
Other games (like WoD) don't have levels. There, you earn XP, which you spend on, well, everything: You can increase your attributes, get skill dots, get some advantages, and if you place some supernatural creature (which is what WoD is all about), you can usually learn some new supernatural stuff or increase your power level (the closest the game comes to a level - and usually not easy).
You could turn Pathfinder into such a game, of course, but you would probably have to redo everything from start, because even more than fixed classes and class abilities, the concept of levels and the associated benefits (saves, attack bonuses, hit points) is a very basic concept in Pathfinder.
Using a level based system and then welding some free-form stuff onto it would prove quite hard to do right, I'd say:
Make it too cheap and you'll find people getting lots and lots of feats and becoming more powerful than they're supposed to be on this level
Make it too expensive and those who buy feats fall behind, meaning they are constantly in greater danger than the rest.
I personally would instead do something else, like having more magic items that grant you feats (so you pay for them. Make them slot-less and you won't interfere with other stuff), allow trade-ins of various class abilities or stuff for feats, or just increase the number of feats everybody gets. Same with skill points.
Just remember that adjustments like this will always affect the party's power level, so keep a close eye on things and...
however, there is a level based game that uses XP (legend points) to purchase skills, feats, attributes, etc...
Earthdawn 3e Earthdawn is still around. Re-published by Mongoose for RedBrick LTD.
You don't advance until you've actually accumulated X number of talents at X rank. Once you hit certain levels, the points change based upon what level you are.
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Well this is kinda how white wolf does it. It has some pluses...but the biggest isse is that some concepts really don't take as many feats as others. The THF pretty much is good with one feat. The TWF...not so much. That means that things like TWF is gonna get nerfed even MORE then it is now without a way to rebalance the issue. Yes such a system can be done...but if you just do a pay x for any feat or skill, you are gonna create even more imbalances in the game then there already is.
however, there is a level based game that uses XP (legend points) to purchase skills, feats, attributes, etc...
Earthdawn 3e Earthdawn is still around. Re-published by Mongoose for RedBrick LTD.
You don't advance until you've actually accumulated X number of talents at X rank. Once you hit certain levels, the points change based upon what level you are.
Legend of the Five Rings is also a hybrid: There are "classes", but they have a relatively small impact on the character. You gain what is basically XP and buy skills and attributes with it. Then you get IP (insight points) for every attribute (actually, only for rings, which are the lower of two associated attributes) and skill "ranks" (which cost more the higher you increase them).
When you have accumulated a certain amount of insight points, you gain another insight rank (which determines certain "class" abilities) and the ability to gain another rank in your class (which is called school) via training in the dojo. The new school rank will give you one additional ability.
Still, games like this are built for it. They were designed with that in mind.
Jury-rigging Pathfinder with such a concept will take work to keep things balanced.
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I very much liked the idea of purchasing skills with exps, and Dreamscarred Press published a pdf called "Complete Control" to work with True 20. The combination completely removed the idea of class and level, everything was purchased with exps. Unfortunately it was just too complicated in my opinion.
I never played it so its only an outside observation, but it appeared there was a lot of maths involved and it made potentially unbalanced characters...
If you want a non-level based system there are several out there, but Pathfinder is currently imho the best and most fun system about. The availability of feats and skills per level are essential for balance.
Earthdawn 3e Earthdawn is still around. Re-published by Mongoose for RedBrick LTD.
For the love of all that is right, please don't copy any game system from Earthdawn! They made a nice world, and had some clever ideas, but the game system was totally broken.
Yes, I played it. There were a lot of things wrong with the mechanics, and buying successes for XP was one of them.
Earthdawn 3e Earthdawn is still around. Re-published by Mongoose for RedBrick LTD.For the love of all that is right, please don't copy any game system from Earthdawn! They made a nice world, and had some clever ideas, but the game system was totally broken.
Yes, I played it. There were a lot of things wrong with the mechanics, and buying successes for XP was one of them.
Buying successes for XP? Are you talking about Karma? Because that's not how it worked, please sight edition and page numbers. Because that sounds like someone's house rule to me. I've played everything except RedBrick's EDC edition.
Sorry Blueluck but Earthdawn is one of my favorite systems...and what you're talking about doesn't jive with what I know about the system.
I did that last one, and had such great success that other GMs who had played in my game copied my rules for it. By limiting the list (or requiring GM approval, if you don't feel like working out a list) my players had a number of extra feats that were interesting and in-character, but they didn't grow too powerful because of it. "Skill Focus: Sailing" might be cool for the pirate character, but it's not going to break your campaign!
Mind sharing your list and system...? Perhaps with guidelines on adding other feats to the list?
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My group and I gave PF a whirl when it first came out. We found it to be a good improvement over 3/3.5...but not *quite* "good enough". Some of the main sticking points we had were that the core idea of only gaining skills (or getting better in them) and feats are still hard-coded into the system.
I'm going to re-phrase that for you. No offense, but what you said just isn't quite readable enough for me to be sure about what you meant. Here's what I think you meant:
"Pathfinder only allows you to gain skills and feats when you level, and in set ratios. We wanted to be able to do that more free-form."
If I'm right, then the rest of this applies:
In general, I would advise that if you want to play a point-based game, you play GURPS or Hero System. If you want to play a level-based game, Pathfinder is a great option (and I know I'm a heretic for saying it, but so is Pathfinder+0.25 or whatever it's called). Combining the two modes of character building requires a roll on the dread system miscibility table! I recommend backing away slowly.
One major pitfall would be allowing players to buy skills with XP. Don't do it. Bad. There's already a system for this, and if you don't use it, you'll severely hobble the characters.
There's already a system, you say? Yep. It's called magic items. Your character wants a +1 to diplomacy? They can buy it in an item. It'll cost 4,000gp for the headband of alluring charisma +2 or you can make up your own item that just has the skill bonus using the magic item creation rules.
Understand, I do get where you're coming from. I'm an old point-based gamer myself, but class-based games aren't a problem as long as you and your players are willing to work WITH the system to get the EFFECT you want. Does it matter if the character thinks they just got better at diplomacy? For that matter, why not just role play it that way if you want?
Feats are more complicated, but in essence it's the same problem. You either gain special qualities granted by feats in the progression allotted, or you're not really playing Pathfinder. After that a lot of things start to break down. As a GM you can wing it and compensate as you go, but it'll be a lot of work, and in some cases it might not feel like the players are being given a fair deal.
Here's what I think you meant:
"Pathfinder only allows you to gain skills and feats when you level, and in set ratios. We wanted to be able to do that more free-form."
If I'm right, then the rest of this applies:
Yup, that's about it. :)
In general, I would advise that if you want to play a point-based game, you play GURPS or Hero System. If you want to play a level-based game, Pathfinder is a great option (and I know I'm a heretic for saying it, but so is Pathfinder+0.25 or whatever it's called). Combining the two modes of character building requires a roll on the dread system miscibility table! I recommend backing away slowly.
hehe...thanks for the warning, but I think I can handle it. :)
One major pitfall would be allowing players to buy skills with XP. Don't do it. Bad. There's already a system for this, and if you don't use it, you'll severely hobble the characters.
I'm not advocating "dropping" the normal increase in Skills/Feats as a character gains levels. The choice to spend xp to buy/increase skills or feats would be in addition to the 'normal' level-advancement means. Yes, this does mean that I would be nixing the "maximum ranks" as well.
There's already a system, you say? Yep. It's called magic items. Your character wants a +1 to diplomacy? They can buy it in an item. It'll cost 4,000gp for the headband of alluring charisma +2 or you can make up your own item that just has the skill bonus using the magic item creation rules.
Definitly not the way I would go. I am of Ye Olde Guarde...I have tried and tried, but I just can *not* get behind the idea of "Going down to the corner store to pick up a couple potions, a scroll or two, and perhaps a new Dagger +2 or Headband of Intellect +4". That whole concept is just to dang odd for me (and the majority of my group).
The 3/3.5/PF idea of "level appropriate magic items are assumed" is a whole other ball of bat guanno, and would need a whole other thread unto itself.
Understand, I do get where you're coming from. I'm an old point-based gamer myself, but class-based games aren't a problem as long as you and your players are willing to work WITH the system to get the EFFECT you want. Does it matter if the character thinks they just got better at diplomacy? For that matter, why not just role play it that way if you want?
Could, and pretty much have been doing that. As I said in the main post, we are pretty much in it for the fun, and "abusing" this idea simply wouldn't happen or be a problem if it did. It would, however, make immersion feel better; for example, we could easily justify the 65 year old weaponsmith having a Craft(Weaponsmithing) skill of +25 without having to actually use the whole "NPC Class" thing (which we don't).
Feats are more complicated, but in essence it's the same problem. You either gain special qualities granted by feats in the progression allotted, or you're not really playing Pathfinder. After that a lot of things start to break down. As a GM you can wing it and compensate as you go, but it'll be a lot of work, and in some cases it might not feel like the players are being given a fair deal.
Any DM worth his salt should, IMHO, never be considered to be "Playing Pathfinder" (or AD&D, 4e, Hackmaster, Alternity, etc.) if he's doing his job correctly. ;) Every DM should have modified, twisted, added, subtracted and even found the inverse square root of the rules to fit his and his players style of play and campaign world.
We likely won't be playing PF for at least a few months (curently playing Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play 1e/2e), but when we do give it another go, we'll probably implement some kind of change for allowing this.
Thanks for all the opinions guys! :)
^_^
Paul L. Ming