Well, like I said, TOZ, you're not going to convince me that True Strike is not providing information on the target of your attack roll.
You gain that +20 bonus because you know (knowledge) exactly where to hit something (your target). You even get to ignore his concealment, which is almost a defining power of divination. You don't even have to know where he is, True Strike tells you where to aim!
If True Strike was a transmutation effect that gave you the ability to supercalculate the perfect course of action for a single attack roll...that would be different, because that's a transmutation effect warping your brain (although how you'd ignore concealment would be a head scratcher).
If it was a Conjuration spell that granted you a fraction of an instant in time to position you perfectly for a strike, yeah, that might work.
But True Strike allows you to perfectly hit something you can't even SEE.
So, yeah, it's going beyond just what a +20 Bonus to Hit might mean, you know? That 'ignore concealment', and the fact it's divination, kind of sold it to me.
If it passes your threshold of indirectness, that's fine. It doesn't do that for me.
==Aelryinth
So does that mean that Mind Blank blocks all insight bonuses now?
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You have now passed beyond opinion to believing that what you say is factual.
The spells listed as blocked by MB function directly against a target. Spells like TS do not. True Strike does not function in any way to gain or gather information about anyone/thing. Written right in the spell itself.
To say otherwise is verging on houserule.
So does that mean that Mind Blank blocks all insight bonuses now?
If you want to interpret it that way, go ahead. I sure don't.
I wasn't aware the type of bonus had anything to do with the fact it's a divination spell.
And like I said, YMMV. If you want to draw a line under True Strike, go ahead. But there's just as strong an argument for it in the other direction.
If Paizo wants to rule it's far enough over the line, that's fine. Until they do, Mind Blank trumping True Strike is perfectly within the reasonable boundaries of the spell's broad immunity to 'ALL spells and devices that provide information about the target' (target being the Mind Blanked person, of course.)
The example spells include several that don't even target the MG person, and it specifically states that those that do totally fail, while others will work, but won't even detect the protected. That's an extremely strong argument for True Strike not being able to tell a Mind Blanked person is even present to divine a bonus against them!
Which is why I consider it the way I do.
==Aelryinth
You have now passed beyond opinion to believing that what you say is factual.
The spells listed as blocked by MB function directly against a target. Spells like TS do not. True Strike does not function in any way to gain or gather information about anyone/thing. Written right in the spell itself.
To say otherwise is verging on houserule.
You are explicitly wrong on that statement, and are not reading the spell all the way through.
See Invisible does not work against a target. The target of See Invisible is The Caster. It allows the caster to See the Invisible. It does not allow them to see someone Invisible who is Mind Blanked. There is no 'enemy target' of See Invisible. Technically speaking, there is no 'information gathering' of See Invisible, either, is there? It's just a passive effect, after all. No beaming, no broadcast, just a vision enhancement. Shouldn't it work just like Darkvision? Yet it explicitly is trumped. They even call it out, to settle any dispute!
Likewise, MB trumps Wish, Miracle, and Limited Wish, which don't need to target anything to gather information. It actually trumps higher level spells.
It specifically STATES that spells that affect areas will simply not detect the Mind Blanked person in that area, although the spell functions normally otherwise...which is exactly what it does to See Invisible, and exactly what it should do to True Strike, neither of which have a defined area, either. A MB target is effectively invisible and undetectable to True Strike, you can't make them a target of the spell's effects.
From pure continuity of effect, I don't believe True Strike warrants the exception you all think it does. I just can't see the justification making sense.
==Aelryinth
I, for one, completely agree with Aelryinth. He is correct that the argument has existed for over 15 years. This is not the first place it has been discussed. I have never seen an official ruling for Pathfinder, or 3.x.
To be perfectly clear this is clearly the grounds of DM interpretation. Either way you rule would be considered a "house rule" unless it is one of the example spells in the spell description. Declaring one's opinion correct and that another's opinion is a house rule is just silly because there is no official ruling on either side. It is all just opinion. All of it.
Beyond that if you want an official ruling on it, make a new thread, hit FAQ and move on. This seems like a small part of the original question, though.
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You have now passed beyond opinion to believing that what you say is factual.
The spells listed as blocked by MB function directly against a target. Spells like TS do not. True Strike does not function in any way to gain or gather information about anyone/thing. Written right in the spell itself.
To say otherwise is verging on houserule.
You are explicitly wrong on that statement, and are not reading the spell all the way through.
See Invisible does not work against a target. The target of See Invisible is The Caster. It allows the caster to See the Invisible. It does not allow them to see someone Invisible who is Mind Blanked. There is no 'enemy target' of See Invisible. Technically speaking, there is no 'information gathering' of See Invisible, either, is there? It's just a passive effect, after all. No beaming, no broadcast, just a vision enhancement. Shouldn't it work just like Darkvision? Yet it explicitly is trumped. They even call it out, to settle any dispute!
Likewise, MB trumps Wish, Miracle, and Limited Wish, which don't need to target anything to gather information. It actually trumps higher level spells.
It specifically STATES that spells that affect areas will simply not detect the Mind Blanked person in that area, although the spell functions normally otherwise...which is exactly what it does to See Invisible, and exactly what it should do to True Strike, neither of which have a defined area, either. A MB target is effectively invisible and undetectable to True Strike, you can't make them a target of the spell's effects.
From pure continuity of effect, I don't believe True Strike warrants the exception you all think it does. I just can't see the justification making sense.
==Aelryinth
No .I am not. You are not listening/reading what is being said to you.
The target of the spells, like Detect Magic/Scry, in a mechanical sense is the caster. That person then in turn "targets" an area/person/object to gather information as determined by the spell (magic, poison, invisibility, location). Mind Blank specifically defeats them.
Spells like True Strike do not do that. Show me where in those type of spells that it does.
Not what you think the spell is doing, but actually written in the spell.
You cannot.
Where in here:
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible). This spell also grants a +8 resistance bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting spells and effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about the target. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
does it say that something like this:
You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.
is foiled, when you understand that there is nothing involved in any other creature except the one that is gaining the bonus to attack.
Think. TS gives an intuitive insight. You gain a feeling about what is right to do. Roughly, TS makes you go off of instincts, not some magically gathered information about the target.
