Harrow readings...I don't get them


Curse of the Crimson Throne


So I have read through all of the AP and I just don't get the point of the harrow readings and deck. I know it adds flavor and is a nice creative touch but other then that I just don't see how to use them in the adventure.

Now keep in mind I don't own the Harrow Deck product so maybe this adds something to the usage but according to the AP I should be able to use a regular card deck.

Questions:
1. What do the harrow readings do that a player could not already do with augury or already existing (and typically underused) divination spells? I can do plenty of foreshadowing with the existing divination mechanic so why bother with a harrow reading? I'd rather reward divine players with godly insights then introduce a new clunky NPC driven mechanic that does the same thing. So what am I missing?

2. Each AP starts with a particular "harrow suit" that is tuned to the current chapter but I can't find where these "harrow suits" match with actual suits from a deck of playing cards. Shouldn't there be a chart that says "Keys=Hearts and Shields=Diamonds" somewhere?

3. In Part 3 of the AP the "Chosen" gets to apply a bonus to Intelligence or Arcane spells for "Games of Blood Pig". How does this help in a game of blood pig? You are not allowed to cast spells and it requires no intelligence checks.

4. This is a more general question but what is the Paizo motive behind giving the PCs unorthodox access to divination abilities? In Curse we have the Harrow reading in Rise we had the "Revelation Quill". I'm just curious what the motivation behind this is. Do the authors feel existing divination methods don't work?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A lot of your questions about the mechanics of how Harrow Readings work are answered in the chapter about Harrow Readings in Edge of Anarchy. There is no direct correlation between the suits of a regular deck of cards and the suits of the Harrow Cards--as the fact that there are six suits in Harrow to only 4 in a deck of playing cards should be a big clue.


cibet44 wrote:

2. Each AP starts with a particular "harrow suit" that is tuned to the current chapter but I can't find where these "harrow suits" match with actual suits from a deck of playing cards. Shouldn't there be a chart that says "Keys=Hearts and Shields=Diamonds" somewhere?

Page 58-61 of Edge of Anarchy tells you everything you need to perform a harrowing (including by using normal playing cards).


Its not that the existing ways dont work... its that the Varisians of Golarion use the Harrow deck and (their that worlds Gypsies, and thats that worlds Tarot Deck), and they have a prestige class called the Harrower based on it :)


Are wrote:
cibet44 wrote:

2. Each AP starts with a particular "harrow suit" that is tuned to the current chapter but I can't find where these "harrow suits" match with actual suits from a deck of playing cards. Shouldn't there be a chart that says "Keys=Hearts and Shields=Diamonds" somewhere?

Page 58-61 of Edge of Anarchy tells you everything you need to perform a harrowing (including by using normal playing cards).

I read that section and it just doesn't help much. I just don't see how the harrow deck is necessary when we already have a whole school of divination. Cool flavor though. I'll just skip it for my game.

I feel this is the first major swing and miss in a Paizo product I have seen. Seems like someone is a big Tarot deck fan and tried to shoehorn it into an AP. Kudos for the effort.

Sovereign Court

It's really cool flavour. The whole point of it is: some really cool flavour to make the adventure more fun, exciting and intriguing for your players.

It's also a reward for defeating Kreeg and a unique magic item for your players.

It plays a part in grounding the action in a specific cultural milieu. Harrowing is a piece of Varisian culture that your characters become involved with.

All sounds pretty awesome so far.

My GM has made the harrow-readings feel really spooky and dramatic (we're using the proper harrow deck) and I end up spending ages picking over the enigmatic predictions.

I am confused that: "it adds flavor and is a nice creative touch" isn't enough.

The only point of having orcs in the game (instead of fighting muscular, degenerate humans) is to add variety, flavour and new types of drama to the game.

If you would like a unique mechanical justification then I would point out that it gives parties without any divine casters access to some divination magic.


The deck, and the spirit within, plays a bigger part later in the AP. I would recommend still doing the Harrowing at the very least, ignoring the benefits if you so wish, but in Skeletons of Scarwell, leading into Crown of Fangs, the spirit comes to the forefront of the adventure. If left completely unused, there's no reason for the PCs to remember Zellara, or help her for that matter at that time.


Becides the fact that there is a Harrower prestige class there are also Harrower feats that you can get that go along with the deck as well that you can take that are general feats :) that effect your character. Every time you start play do a reading and it effects the bonuses your character gets for the day :) is one of them :)

Scarab Sages

Squeeks wrote:
The deck, and the spirit within, plays a bigger part later in the AP. I would recommend still doing the Harrowing at the very least, ignoring the benefits if you so wish, but in Skeletons of Scarwell, leading into Crown of Fangs, the spirit comes to the forefront of the adventure. If left completely unused, there's no reason for the PCs to remember Zellara, or help her for that matter at that time.

IMC the party brought the deck too close to the castle and as I described the effect they just shrugged and kept going. Now they wonder why they're not getting Harrow points and the "re-roll one XXX check". Sheesh.

Now they've left the castle and have wondered about it, but never bothered to even voice any concern for her. Oh well. B)


cibet44 wrote:
Cool flavor though.

And there it is: The reason they introduced it. Doesn't have to add another 1000 attack power to the characters or anything. Sometimes, things are just awesome for being awesome, not for letting you go Over Nine Thousand!


KaeYoss wrote:
cibet44 wrote:
Cool flavor though.
And there it is: The reason they introduced it. Doesn't have to add another 1000 attack power to the characters or anything. Sometimes, things are just awesome for being awesome, not for letting you go Over Nine Thousand!

Never said anything about "go over Nine Thousand". Like I said before the flavors fine. Paizo is the one that put in the wonky mechanics around the flavor -not me. I'm just expressing how they don't work as written and how the existing divination works just fine. The harrow flavor could have been left in and the mechanics could have been left out in lieu of the existing school of divination. I suspect if you bought the Harrow Deck product it would make more sense but I'm not doing that.

Besides, no one has provided an answer for #3 at all. A clear oversight in design. Essentially you give the PC a meaningless bonus.


I've been having Zellara deliver Harrow readings at the beginning of each chapter, but not to provide bonuses as the game mechanic suggests (I gave out Harrow Points in the first chapter, and all my players promptly forgot all about them).

Instead, I choose the cards (ie. stack the deck) so they foreshadow important NPCs, locations, or events in the upcoming chapter. As a divination tool, it's pretty weak sauce, but it provides a nice narrative resonance when the cards' images resurface in the narrative.

For instance:

Spoiler:
In "Escape From Old Korvosa," the reading included the following cards: the Vision (Salvatore Scream), the Theatre (Pilts's palace), the Uprising (mob rule), and of course, the Rakshasa. Seeing these cards in advance didn't change the PCs' actions, but when they encountered those things, they were reassured that they were essentially on the right track.

Now, if they had a diviner in the party, s/he could have cast some follow-up spells, possibly determining who or where the rakshasa is, what its weaknesses are, etc. And that would be fine, I think; it certainly doesn't render divination magic redundant, just gives diviners a slight, enigmatic push in the right direction.


Gonturan wrote:

I've been having Zellara deliver Harrow readings at the beginning of each chapter, but not to provide bonuses as the game mechanic suggests (I gave out Harrow Points in the first chapter, and all my players promptly forgot all about them).

Instead, I choose the cards (ie. stack the deck) so they foreshadow important NPCs, locations, or events in the upcoming chapter. As a divination tool, it's pretty weak sauce, but it provides a nice narrative resonance when the cards' images resurface in the narrative.

For instance:

** spoiler omitted **

Now that's helpful advice, thanks. I'll consider doing this instead of the suggested harrowing process in the AP. This simplifies the harrowing process but provides the same flavor and information without overshadowing actual divination spells.

As far as the harrow points go I was wondering if my players would forget about them as well. I like the idea of giving them these situational bonuses but, like your group, I think they'll just get lost in the wash. If I do the harrowing I'll also give the points and just hope the players remember them. I know I won't as the DM.


We actually used the harrow deck more than the books suggested. It helped that one of the players reads tarot IRL and was able to add all of that expertise and feel into the harrow readings she performed. Worked, too. The player who kept drawing The Beating really did get his beating.

It was fun. It made the game more real. The bonuses didn't matter and were forgotten half the time but after the first two readings we weren't doing the readings for just the bonuses. Zellara was never an important character and she wasn't missed when things happened because the harrow mechanic itself eclipsed her in emotional importance.

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