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So, PFS is growing here in Canada (as evidenced by our first Canadian Venture Captain - Congrats!) and we're feeling it in Winnipeg as well. My bi-weekly game went to 7 people last time, with two of the regulars being unavailable, so I prep'ed to have a second GM on standby for the next session. When I arrived at the game last night, I found 9 players including two newbies, but no back-up GM. I had asked for some of the regular players to step up to GM a scenario they'd already run, but the only experienced GM's that were in the room are relatively new to Pathfinder and so weren't comfortable doing that. So I had a problem.
I know what the RAW states - 7 players max, kick two players out (probably the newbies, based on seniority). After a quick confab, it turns out that both newbies were brand new to Pathfinder, had created characters but really hadn't gamed a lot, and really didn't know what to do. Thus, I deemed their impact on the outcome of the game would likely be minimal (given that a seven-person party generally walks through everything anyway, APL notwithstanding). I told the two new players that they would not be able to get "credit" for this game due to the maximum table size, but I let them sit in and play anyway. I also offered to run an extra game outside my regular schedule for them (and two others who missed) so they could "catch up".
Net result: we had a blast, the two newbies marched downstairs during the break and bought the core rulebook (and one bought the APG!), and Winnipeg Pathfinder Society is up to eleven players. The fights were still challenging for the party (tier 3-4, Scenario #51...), and several PCs were helpless throughout the game. They didn't kill the BBEG due to him escaping just before time ran out.
So my questions after all that:
* how do I award Chronicles sheets, if at all? (I have not handed any out yet, after explaining the issue to the table.) I would hate to deny the regular players a sheet, given the situation.
* how do other groups convince other players to step up and GM?
* what is my punishment for having too many people who wanted to play?
If others have these issues, how do you deal with it?
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Personally, I would never assume that the people not given a spot were the new people, that is just condemning your area society to not gain new players.
I would award all of them a chronicle sheet since they all played
For a long time my area PFS group only a core of 4 judges, as people started getting more comfortable with the system (myself included) we have had a few more step up to help with the GMing duties. The more experienced ones I would ask what specifically they aren't comfortable with and see if you can smooth things over and they can start juding to help out.
I don't believe there is a punishment for having too many players at a table.
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I haven't had this happen yet, but have come close and I know that this may not be what the higher ups want to hear, but...
Since you were unable to get anyone else to GM, I would give everyone at the table a chronicle. If I was reporting it, I would report it as two separate tables, one with 4 players and one with 5 players with myself as the GM for both. I know that this is against the written rules of the PFS Guide, but I believe that Play,Play,Play takes priority over everything else. There is no way you should turn those two new players away, just because a rule somewhere says you can only have 7 players at the table. If you had, they may never have bought those books, and probably would not bother to come back.
Going forward from here is where you need to work the hardest though. Now that you have 11 players, you will definitely need to have one other GM ready to run a scenario for your gamedays. This happened once, and I believe most people would be considerate enough to hand wave the rules this one time if it meant selling pathfinder and getting more players involved in PFS. However, you need to make sure that in the future your group is ready for more than 7 players showing up for PFS.
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Personally, I think that it is awesome that you had too many players show up. Much better than too few. And you did have one of the best scenarios for that situation.
I still feel, however, that you can only give the 7 chronicles, especially since you clearly warned the group at the start. If everyone showed up by the appointed time, those should go to your regulars. If anyone was late, they should be the one missing out.
Going forward, you should definitely look at further GM's. Perhaps, rather than have a 2nd table on the same night, you could get one of your less experienced GMs to try a different night, with you there as a player. That way you can help someone who knows how to GM but is uncomfortable with rules. Or, make up 2 new GM's and you oversee both tables as a rules arbiter.
Hope that helped.
Edit: Yow! Double-ninjaed!
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If I was presented with a situation where 9 players showed up (including brand new players) and I was the only GM, I would seriously consider running a table of 4 and a table of 5... at the same time.
I would ask one of the experienced players to help keep track of initiative at one of the tables, but beyond that, I would run it much the same way the Year of the Shadow Lodge is run. Essentially both tables are "there" and can work together to overcome obstacles, but run separate combats.
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If I was presented with a situation where 9 players showed up (including brand new players) and I was the only GM, I would seriously consider running a table of 4 and a table of 5... at the same time.
I would ask one of the experienced players to help keep track of initiative at one of the tables, but beyond that, I would run it much the same way the Year of the Shadow Lodge is run. Essentially both tables are "there" and can work together to overcome obstacles, but run separate combats.
Gah!! Trying to get that 3rd star in one session?? :)
Actually, this could work, with an experienced GM. The biggest difficulty would be the role-playing portions, but it really shouldnt be much more difficult than a 9 player table.
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I know what the RAW states - 7 players max, kick two players out (probably the newbies, based on seniority).
Not speaking to your final solution, but I would say that this is a fundamental no-no in society. If you have too many players show up, and you don't feel comfortable breaking the 7-player cap, or feel comfortable running two tables like Kyle has suggested, the absolute last thing you should be doing is turning away new players.
If (again ignoring the other options) I were in this situation I would have asked for volunteers for a second GM from the more experienced players, and if they didn't want to, or feel comfortable helping out, I would have run a lottery to see which of the two experienced players would go to make room for the new players. New players should always come first, and "seniority" should never trump them being able to play. If you're a player that's that senior, you should be running a table as a GM in that kind of situation.
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New players should always come first, and "seniority" should never trump them being able to play. If you're a player that's that senior, you should be running a table as a GM in that kind of situation.
This.
If anything you should boot people based on seniority. People that have been playing the longest, and are not judging, need to step aside for new players.
and this.
Quoted for truth!
It's an awesome problem to have, and vets should be trying to help grow the community just as much as GMs. Sometimes this means giving up your seat. Sometimes this means taking a turn behind the table.
Reiterate to them that they can still get credit for playing and running the same mod. Plus sometimes it's good to be a hero.
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If that had been Living Greyhawk it would have been reported as a Table of 4 and a Table of 5 even thought it was ran as a table of 9. The important thing that happens are that those kinds of issues are rare and that everyone gets to have a good time. Now I'm sure that by the rules you can't actually do what I'm suggesting, just like in LG we weren't technically allowed to do that either but did it anyway.
The newbies should absolutely be included in the game time, new players are what any growing group needs to have. You definitely need to get one or two others going as a DM to help keep things moving more smoothly.
Congratulations on having such a growing group, I hope it continues the upward trend!
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Thanks for the feedback, folks... due to the logistics of the room, running two tables would actually have meant taking the stairs between tables - not that it crossed my mind anyway. Some good ideas on encouraging GM'ing as well - thanks.
I would love to hear an official ruling on the awarding of Chronicle sheets for this specific situation, though...
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I would love to hear an official ruling on the awarding of Chronicle sheets for this specific situation, though...
I wouldn't.
You are asking the "officials" to either: tell you its okay to break the rules, or tell you to not let new players join. That's a tough position to be put in.
Instead, just report it as two tables, give everyone a chronicle sheet, and make sure you have an extra GM next time. :)
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I wouldn't.
Sorry, I meant for the past and specific occurence of this situation at my game, not a general statement for this situation coming up in the future where it can be abused. It *is* a tough situation to be put in, but I'm pretty sure Hyrum and Mark get paid more to work on PFS than I do to GM. :)
My priority is to please the players and build the local community, and so my instinct would be to do as you and others have suggested and give everyone Chronicle sheets. If Mark and Hyrum object to that, though, I'd rather know before I do it.
Director of Brand Strategy
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If someone played in the game, no matter how many players sat at the table, they deserve a Chronicle. They also deserve a play experience at a non-overcrowded table.
Make sure you have an extra GM next time. :)
This is the best advice. If a GM or event coordinator knows that you are expecting a full group, line up a backup GM just in case. 9 times out of 10, they probably won't be needed, as I've usually found that people are more likely to flake out than bring three friends unexpectedly, but when you get 7 or 9 people who all want to play, having someone ready to go is a godsend. Part of the role of coordinators and GMs is ensuring that a group can grow within the rules, not resorting to last-resort catch-all rules to justify not preparing adequately for unexpected turnouts.
Besides, as it says on page 22 of the Guide:
When using the “Play, Play, Play” rule to make a
legal table, a GM may allow up to seven players at
her table. This is called “the hard ceiling” and may
not be crossed, even for the “Play, Play, Play” rule.
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Besides, as it says on page 22 of the Guide:
When using the “Play, Play, Play” rule to make a
legal table, a GM may allow up to seven players at
her table. This is called “the hard ceiling” and may
not be crossed, even for the “Play, Play, Play” rule.
And this is why it's important to get out there in the trenches and actually experience the organizing for this campaign first-hand. Someone trying to grow PFS in their area is not going to turnaway new players due to an unexpected bump in attendees, regardless of a written "hard ceiling." They are going to bust their butt to make sure everyone who shows up has a great time, and next time, they'll work to find a second GM.
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And this is why it's important to get out there in the trenches and actually experience the organizing for this campaign first-hand. Someone trying to grow PFS in their area is not going to turnaway new players due to an unexpected bump in attendees, regardless of a written "hard ceiling." They are going to bust their butt to make sure everyone who shows up has a great time, and next time, they'll work to find a second GM.Besides, as it says on page 22 of the Guide:
When using the “Play, Play, Play” rule to make a
legal table, a GM may allow up to seven players at
her table. This is called “the hard ceiling” and may
not be crossed, even for the “Play, Play, Play” rule.
Well-played that's exactly it .. From the GM perspective it's an attitude of whatever it takes to make sure the players have fun -- and in my mind that means everyone playing that wants to play
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Well-played that's exactly it .. From the GM perspective it's an attitude of whatever it takes to make sure the players have fun -- and in my mind that means everyone playing that wants to play
Unfortunately there are circumstances where not everyone is going to get to play. For example, I would turn away players as a last resort if the only other option was going to be a miserable experience. Of course, before that happens there are about 29 other options.
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And this is why it's important to get out there in the trenches and actually experience the organizing for this campaign first-hand. Someone trying to grow PFS in their area is not going to turnaway new players due to an unexpected bump in attendees, regardless of a written "hard ceiling." They are going to bust their butt to make sure everyone who shows up has a great time, and next time, they'll work to find a second GM.Besides, as it says on page 22 of the Guide:
When using the “Play, Play, Play” rule to make a
legal table, a GM may allow up to seven players at
her table. This is called “the hard ceiling” and may
not be crossed, even for the “Play, Play, Play” rule.
+1
Given the "Don't Read the Scenario" rule, it's generally impractical to co-opt a player into GMing a scenario. If they have not played the scenario, then they're going to run it blind. If they have, then they are probably giving up their one shot to ever actually play in the scenario. (Given that because of the no-replay rule, most gaming groups seldom re-run scenarios.)
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Given the "Don't Read the Scenario" rule, it's generally impractical to co-opt a player into GMing a scenario. If they have not played the scenario, then they're going to run it blind. If they have, then they are probably giving up their one shot to ever actually play in the scenario. (Given that because of the no-replay rule, most gaming groups seldom re-run scenarios.)
A person may get credit for a scenario twice, once as a GM and once as a player, in any order. This will be clarified in the FAQ and future versions of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
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A person may get credit for a scenario twice, once as a GM and once as a player, in any order. This will be clarified in the FAQ and future versions of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
For more on this, see this thread.
Back to the OP's topic.
I would suggest talking to your more experienced players/GMs and finding out if they are willing to play rotating GM. Where each one would take a different week of the month to GM at the gamedays. Spread it out, share the wealth. Who knows, you may find someone who really enjoys GMing.
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A person may get credit for a scenario twice, once as a GM and once as a player, in any order. This will be clarified in the FAQ and future versions of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
You should point this out to your regulars. They might like to "learn" GMing with a mod they've already played and still get a second chronicle for another character. If they prep one they can spend plenty of time with it and bring it each time as a "just in case".
I've actually made copies of pages I might need out of the books to have with the mod. Just because I'm not that good with all the rules and that makes the game faster and smoother.
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A person may get credit for a scenario twice, once as a GM and once as a player, in any order. This will be clarified in the FAQ and future versions of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
You should point this out to your regulars. They might like to "learn" GMing with a mod they've already played and still get a second chronicle for another character. If they prep one they can spend plenty of time with it and bring it each time as a "just in case".
I've actually made copies of pages I might need out of the books to have with the mod. Just because I'm not that good with all the rules and that makes the game faster and smoother.
+1
I usually have a handful of scenarios in my car that I can run even if I'm going somewhere just to play. And when I show up to run a certain scenario, I have back-ups in case I'm needed to run something different.
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A person may get credit for a scenario twice, once as a GM and once as a player, in any order. This will be clarified in the FAQ and future versions of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
You should point this out to your regulars. They might like to "learn" GMing with a mod they've already played and still get a second chronicle for another character. If they prep one they can spend plenty of time with it and bring it each time as a "just in case".
I've actually made copies of pages I might need out of the books to have with the mod. Just because I'm not that good with all the rules and that makes the game faster and smoother.
+1 to Dojohouty (He has recently "stepped up" and been prep'd to GM due to our growth)
Lamplighter as you were ready for what you knew to be coming I wouldn't stress it too much. I know there are rules, but sometimes something has to give (as long as this doesn't become the norm). Others have given some really good suggestions. Take the one you think follows the spirit of PFS best and implement it.
Also show this thread to the players with seniority. Offer to help them prep for the scenario if needed. Maybe with all of the resources you can help them find you can get one or two of them to choose one scenario and always have it ready to go.
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Part of the role of coordinators and GMs is ensuring that a group can grow within the rules, not resorting to last-resort catch-all rules to justify not preparing adequately for unexpected turnouts.
This 100%
It may be a pain, but a coordinator should always try to be prepared for many situations.
It is not always possible, But you feel better about yourself if you tried everything else first!
I just had my first occurrence of it "not always being possible"
We have 3 Gms plus another upcoming GM, and always 2 tables per game (close to having to split to 3). This last weekend I was not able to GM due to knee surgery, another of my GM disappeared off the face of the the earth (recently came back) the new upcoming GM was not able to make it, which left 1 GM for 2 tables worth of players! Sadly I had to tell players that for this game not everyone was going to be able to play. In the end some of the veterans volunteered to skip for some of the new players and the game ended running with out going over max. I still feel bad that some missed out, but I know I did everything I could, and it was just a case of everything that could go wrong with GMs going wrong.
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A person may get credit for a scenario twice, once as a GM and once as a player, in any order. This will be clarified in the FAQ and future versions of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.Given the "Don't Read the Scenario" rule, it's generally impractical to co-opt a player into GMing a scenario. If they have not played the scenario, then they're going to run it blind. If they have, then they are probably giving up their one shot to ever actually play in the scenario. (Given that because of the no-replay rule, most gaming groups seldom re-run scenarios.)
Yes. I understood this. Here is what I was trying to describe.
For most play groups [that I have seen], a given scenario gets played about two times. After this point, most all of the group has played it, and it will be difficult to justify playing again because so many of the play group will have to sit it out. Often the play group only plays the scenario once, and if you miss it, you find it to play at a convention.
First Play: The table is GM'd by either a player who will GM and then hope to play later, or by a player who has played the scenario somewhere else (convention, different group, etc).
If the table fills, and a second GM is needed, then the second GM slot will be filled by:
A) Someone who has never GM'd it before, and will be doing so totally cold and blind (never read scenario, doesn't know what is coming up).
B) Someone who has GM'd it before, and had just sat down for their turn at playing the scenario. If they GM, they take the real chance that their play group will not play this scenario again, and they are just out of luck.
Second Play: The table is GM'd by a player who got to play the first time around and is now getting credit for GMing. Or the table is played by someone who has determined that their play experience may or may not come later, but if it will, it will probably be at a convention.
If the table fills, and a second GM is needed, then the second GM slot will be filled by:
A) Someone who has never GM'd it before, and will be doing so totally cold and blind (never read scenario, doesn't know what is coming up).
B) Someone who has GM'd it before, and who had just sat down for their turn to play it. If they GM, they have a high probability of not getting to play the scenario, as this was the play group's second shot at the adventure, and most likely the last time the group will play it. They may or may not have a chance to later play at a convention.
I realize my walk-through may not apply to your play group, and it probably doesn't apply in larger cities where there may be multiple game shops with multiple play groups providing multiple play experiences for DM's. I live in a small city, where our only decent (and a quite decent game shop it is) game shop has a play group that matches my description. We have a few very generous DM's who work very hard. (I tend to Play much more than I GM, but will step up when asked, and am very appreciative of anyone who wants to take the gavel.)
A person may get credit for a scenario twice, once as a GM and once as a player, in any order. This will be clarified in the FAQ and future versions of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.Given the "Don't Read the Scenario" rule, it's generally impractical to co-opt a player into GMing a scenario. If they have not played the scenario, then they're going to run it blind. If they have, then they are probably giving up their one shot to ever actually play in the scenario. (Given that because of the no-replay rule, most gaming groups seldom re-run scenarios.)
Yes. I understood this. Here is what I was trying to describe.
For most play groups [that I have seen], a given scenario gets played about two times. After this point, most all of the group has played it, and it will be difficult to justify playing again because so many of the play group will have to sit it out. Often the play group only plays the scenario once, and if you miss it, you find it to play at a convention.
Oh, you can play a scenario more than once if needed under the "play, play, play" rule, you just only get credit the first time you play it.
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Oh, you can play a scenario more than once if needed under the "play, play, play" rule, you just only get credit the first time you play it.A person may get credit for a scenario twice, once as a GM and once as a player, in any order. This will be clarified in the FAQ and future versions of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.Given the "Don't Read the Scenario" rule, it's generally impractical to co-opt a player into GMing a scenario. If they have not played the scenario, then they're going to run it blind. If they have, then they are probably giving up their one shot to ever actually play in the scenario. (Given that because of the no-replay rule, most gaming groups seldom re-run scenarios.)
Yes. I understood this. Here is what I was trying to describe.
For most play groups [that I have seen], a given scenario gets played about two times. After this point, most all of the group has played it, and it will be difficult to justify playing again because so many of the play group will have to sit it out. Often the play group only plays the scenario once, and if you miss it, you find it to play at a convention.
Oh. Agreed. I recently replayed a scenario using the 4th level Oracle pregen with KnighterrantJR as GM.
What came to mind is that giving a character who has no reason to worry about existence beyond the adventure a Necklace of Fireballs isn't exactly a great idea. (Threw a 4d6 fireball at my feat to kill off a swarm. Failed my own save, and barely made the save for the rest of the necklace. Good times!)
I've come to the conclusion that next time I run a Pregen, in the time when the Venture-Captain says, "if you need to pick up any specific supplies, now is the time", I'll sell all (or a big chunk) of my gear for a suit of full-plate, and become the party tank. (In the adventure I played in, we found a suit of full-plate mid-adventure, and I donned it, accepting the horrible Arcane penalty. I stood in the front line, and blocked for any other caster members, while being a flanking-buddy to the rogue.)
