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The background: I'm running a 3.5/PF game (pretty much anything WotC or Paizo printed for 3.5 and PF respectively is allowed) set in Eberron. It's been an optimization arms race for several months now, and I'm ready to end it.
Originally, I allowed all of the 3.5 stuff in my game because I like variety, and I enjoy playing RPGs as tactical games sometimes. We're all video gamers who like overcoming challenges.
If I just start banning optimization resources, my players will mutiny, either walking out or replacing me. I also just happen to not agree with the "if you don't like it, ban it" school of anti-optimization.
What I want to do is scare them so badly they *beg* me to roll the "allowed books list" back to Core/APG only, or give them optimization fatigue as they search through 13 sourcebooks for a counter to a monster that is not even close to fair for a creature 2 CR below the party's level.
As far as humanoid NPCs go, I can, of course, just use the same broken builds and combos the PCs use, and I know there are messageboards all over the 'net for optimizing player characters. What I am curious about is if anybody has any tips, or links to resources similar to the Character Optimization boards I've browsed in the past, for monster optimization.
After the smoke clears, I'm going to start suggesting to them that we allow some of the PFRPG 3PP stuff to retain variety. I just need to start launching nukes so that the 3.5 stuff can be cleared off the table.
I'm committed to this course of action - banning is out of the question, and quitting for another fantasy RPG is not a desirable outcome - I've never liked a tabletop game as much as I like PFRPG. Quitting the group is impossible - the people I play this game with are close friends (incl. girlfriend of 5 years) who would take refusal to play as a serious insult.
I really appreciate the time you took to read this, and any time you take to respond.
The background: I'm running a 3.5/PF game (pretty much anything WotC or Paizo printed for 3.5 and PF respectively is allowed) set in Eberron. It's been an optimization arms race for several months now, and I'm ready to end it.
Originally, I allowed all of the 3.5 stuff in my game because I like variety, and I enjoy playing RPGs as tactical games sometimes. We're all video gamers who like overcoming challenges.
If I just start banning optimization resources, my players will mutiny, either walking out or replacing me. I also just happen to not agree with the "if you don't like it, ban it" school of anti-optimization.
What I want to do is scare them so badly they *beg* me to roll the "allowed books list" back to Core/APG only, or give them optimization fatigue as they search through 13 sourcebooks for a counter to a monster that is not even close to fair for a creature 2 CR below the party's level.
As far as humanoid NPCs go, I can, of course, just use the same broken builds and combos the PCs use, and I know there are messageboards all over the 'net for optimizing player characters. What I am curious about is if anybody has any tips, or links to resources similar to the Character Optimization boards I've browsed in the past, for monster optimization.
After the smoke clears, I'm going to start suggesting to them that we allow some of the PFRPG 3PP stuff to retain variety. I just need to start launching nukes so that the 3.5 stuff can be cleared off the table.
I'm committed to this course of action - banning is out of the question, and quitting for another fantasy RPG is not a desirable outcome - I've never liked a tabletop game as much as I like PFRPG. Quitting the group is impossible - the people I play this game with are close friends (incl. girlfriend of 5 years) who would take refusal to play as a serious insult.
I really appreciate the time you took to read this, and any time you take to respond.
It seems you have lost control of the group. If they want to replace you as DM them let them. I think allowing them to try to match the PC's in an arms face will let them know how hard it is. In the mean time, use the same combos they use. One rule in my games is that if the players can do it, then the NPC's can do it. Players thinking twice about certain tactics being used against them usually reels them in. Now with that said what are they doing that is so bad?
What level would be fair? I made a Shadowcaster build that 1-rounds most dragons at 18th level (using 3.5 rules!). It focuses on causing ability drain to a dump stat, while being incorporeal.
There are binder combos that do more sneak attack damage than rogues of the same level.
I'm not a great optimizer, so I'll keep out of the way - but I have to ask: What problem is optimization actually causing?
Because it sounds like your players like the game the way it is - they would raise hell if you changed it, right? So they don't seem to have a problem with it. Is it just you?
If you honestly aren't having fun, I think the best approach is to just tell them that you aren't having fun. Nobody wants a bummed-out GM. If you approach them explain where you're coming from, they should understand. If not, you have some crappy friends who don't deserve you.
If you really want to teach them a lesson, I don't think that out-twinking them is the answer; it could backfire and make them work even harder at OPing their characters in order to keep up with the new difficulty level. You might actually do better by aiming low, and giving them challenges that are appropriate for them by the book, but which they easily defeat - TOO easily, to the point of being boring.
But all that really does is make them unhappy too, which is a crummy outcome. Perhaps you could phrase your request as a challenge? "See what you can do with just X, Y, but no Z?"
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Ah, powergamers. They make me want to toss all 3.5 supplements.
Because of this, I've become pretty good at monster optimization. More details would be helpful, though! What level are they, what are some overpowered things they've chosen, etc.
Of course, you don't really have to use material that is outside the PF Bestiary and Core Rule Book. Try taking a low-level monster, giving him Wizard levels, and using a spell to change the appearance of himself and his low-level minions--into Iron Golems. The PCs will not use any magic on these NPCs until they realize what has transpired, wasting their valuable time and probably a lot of HP. Similarly, you can use 16 CR 1/3 goblins against a 7th-level party--that's an average encounter. Give those goblins torches instead of shortswords, and you've got a group of badly-singed PCs.
The important thing to remember is that powergamers often forget to use brains over brawn. It's not the inherent awesomeness of the monster that counts, it's whether you can trick the players. If you can do that, not only will they have a harder time of it; they'll have more fun in the end because they never saw any of it coming.
Quite honestly, if they're optimized, they have dump stats, and monsters that target those dump stats will mess with them very badly.
An alchemist armed with smoke sticks, an anti-magic field (the mana wastes would be great), and some variety of stirge attractant? Actually, no. He's the only one who has the formula for the stir repellent, isn't sharing, and scheduled the battle with the overtwinked PC during the great stirge migration. It's like passenger pigeons that suck blood. Throw in something like smokesticks so no one can see and wait to see how soon until someone drops.
Of course, that may no be what you want, but honestly, just sit down and talk with your players about what they want from the game.
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Most of the issue comes from being unable to challenge the party. I've actually gotten a reputation for running pushover combats. Last session was the first time in several weeks that a PC has taken a double digit amount of damage. When the PCs are out of combat, utility abilities make them more or less able to infiltrate anything and fast-talk anyone.
The PCs are level 14. The big offenders are Tome of Battle stuff (a PC Swordsage who likes Shadow Hand style and Rings of Invisibility) and creative use of magic items.
Most of the issue comes from being unable to challenge the party. I've actually gotten a reputation for running pushover combats. Last session was the first time in several weeks that a PC has taken a double digit amount of damage. When the PCs are out of combat, utility abilities make them more or less able to infiltrate anything and fast-talk anyone.
The PCs are level 14. The big offenders are Tome of Battle stuff (a PC Swordsage who likes Shadow Hand style and Rings of Invisibility) and creative use of magic items.
I was asking what specifically are they doing. Give us a tough encounter, at least one you intended to be tough, and how they just ran through it.
Sometimes the players just know the rules better. Sometime rules are being broken accidentally or on purpose. Sometimes players try to use the strongest possible interpretation of the rule instead of RAI. Sometimes the DM is playing with kid gloves, but he does not realize it. The problem may be on your end. That is why I am asking, but I am not accusing you of anything. If we don't know what they are doing then it is hard to counter them. An example of each player's favorite things to do will also help.Edit:Do they have more magic gear than they should, and what classes do they have? The more detailed the better.
In answer to your question, http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/ has a min max and a handbook section. Most all of the old overpowered stuff lives there.
Put them against binders wielding Vicious weapons, and bound to the Dahlver-Nar and Buer vestiges. Dahlver-Nar has Shield Self, which forces an opponent to take 1/2 the damage the binder would normally suffer (he still takes half damage) if the PC fails a Will Save. Buer grants fast healing 3 at 13th level. Maybe add Focalor to the mix to inflict a -2 on Saves.
So, when the PCs hurt the NPCs, the NPCs take half damage and the PCs take half damage. Then the NPCs strike for an extra 2d6, but half of the 1d6 the NPCs suffer from their Vicious weapons then harms the PCs, and the NPCs fast healing 3 takes care of the rest.
Easy peasy!
If you're not worried about Save DCs and are worried about taking ability damage/drain instead, drop Focalor for Naberius and get Faster Ability Healing.
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Apologies for the lack of details. I'll attempt to clarify.
They do have more gear than they are supposed to, only because they have an artificer party member. The actual GP amount I give to the party is far below the wealth-by-level charts, but they manager to use the Artificer's abilities to get almost three times the gear out of it.
Example encounter:
I sent them up against an Ice Linnorm (CR 17) last game. CR 17, being 3 above the party, should be pretty challenging - possibly involving someone dropping below 0 hp. The party started at full strength. The True Seeing negated all of the supernatural stealth the party had, which makes this the first fight the party did not start at a major advantage - no surprise round. The Linnorm rolled badly on Init and got to go last.
Using blink-type abilities (such as the Shadow Stride maneuver) the Swordsage/Rogue/Assassin got into flanking position and bypassed reach and AoOs entirely and started passing out sneak attack damage. The Swashbuckler/Warblade/Fighter used Greater Insightful Strike to do 60+ damage on the first round. The Artificer used a scroll to summon a monster and was busy for the rest of the round. The Wizard hasted the party. The Linnorm full-attacked the Swordsage and hit once. The Swordsage failed the save vs poison, but didn't take appreciable amount of Con drain from it.
In the second round, The Assassin got several sneak attacks in due to the flank and Haste. The Warblade used Sudden Recovery to get another Greater Insightful strike, and another lucky roll got somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 damage. The Linnorm pulled back and breath-weaponed everyone. The Swordsage saved and has Evasion. The Wizard was far enough away from the rest of the group to be outside of range. The summoned monster bit it, but the Artificer and Warblade saved. They used combat maneuvers to break out of the paralysis. No issues with poison this round.
In the third round, the two melee characters attacked (one using Sneak Attack and the other Power Attacking), both hit, and that was enough damage to bring down the Linnorm. A Heal scroll took care of the poison and the drain got taken care of with a Restoration after the PCs returned to society.
The issues come up because the PCs have managed to keep their combat stats - Saves, AC, Attack rolls, and so on - relatively high, while managing to cover most of their weaknesses - they have only good saves due to careful multiclassing and feat choices, good AC due to combining class features (a character with good Dex and Wis being a Swordsage and therefore adding both to AC) with good gear thanks to the Artificer.
Due to Dance of the Spider, Shadow Jaunt, and the stance that lets a character hover above the ground - forget the name, another Shadow Hand ability - combined with a Ring of Invisibility and the Remove Scent spell - the Swordsage is almost entirely undetectable, unless I specifically take aim for it in the form of monsters with constant True Seeing or antimagic fields.
I'll try to be more specific if I've left anything vital out.
In answer to your question, http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/ has a min max and a handbook section. Most all of the old overpowered stuff lives there.
I have their CharOp forum open in another tab, I've been browsing the Min/Max handbooks for various classes. The one missing topic from those boards is Monster Optimization.
Put them against binders wielding Vicious weapons, and bound to the Dahlver-Nar and Buer vestiges.
I'll give it a try. Tome of Magic is one of the few books that hasn't come into play yet.
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Yuck. Poor linnorm.
Try replacing one of your monsters' feats with improved initiative; sounds like you need to get the jump on these guys. And constant true seeing, see invisibility, or even detect magic never hurts.
If they've pumped Dex and other stealthy things too much, try to exploit their will saves. Look at illusion spells, especially shadow spells. "Spectral Blade" from the Spell Compendium is great because damage is done as a touch attack and they get a will save to disbelieve.
Pump your enemies' spell save DCs; if you get desperate you can Dominate Person or even use the new rules for possession (see Council of Thieves #4, the Infernal Syndrome) on one of your PCs. Use them against themselves!
Sneak attacks are very effective against most enemies, but remember that constructs and oozes are immune. Also check out the Zern from 3.5; they have some cool body-morphing traits that make it harder to crit/sneak attack them.
And... Don't forget to get your creative template-ing on. Check out the Advanced Bestiary--something your PCs likely haven't used on themselves. You can make scary, scary undead that way. You can also take advantage of the Seasonal Creature template, which can help you to min-max even normal Bestiary monsters: +4 to three ability scores and -4 to the other three. Combine with the Advanced template and give the monster a class level or two, with the standard ability adjustments (+4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and -2) worked in. Boom, you've got a monster with insane ability scores that's completely legal.
Pumping HP never hurts, either. If the party is near-impossible to hit, make sure the monster stays alive long enough to do some damage!
Hope this helps! Good luck.
To be blunt. You shouldn't be using a single monster as is out of a monster book vs. your party.
As multiple posters have said above, and offered suggestions, you need to capitalize on what you know the group can do and make opposition that can weather it.
Your linnorm was (CR+3) but against an over wealth level group, optimized with tome of battle and free access to splatbooks, that's basically an even CR.
You should have templated the puppy, added in the tauric creature, or dual headed, or the octopoid or half fiend templates. (or multiples)
Just a few examples.
Also, one major rule to help you out. NEVER use just one monster.
As for the gear I would decrease downtime. In other words use mission that have a time limit.
AS for the Eberron Artficier(an assumption on my part) the feats that reduce time/gold/etc to build items don't stack if you take them multiple times. There is errata that fixes that. I am assuming that is how they get so much stuff.
Boss(not BBEG) level fights are normally about 3 above the party, but the party should not be at full power either. You always wear them down before the boss fight, and make the fight sneak up on them. If they know where the boss is they will just rest before the fight.
Another thing is that the iconic single monster boss fight is not that hard to due to action economy. In other words the players get 4 things to do while the monster can only do one thing. It is harder to fight two CR 15 monsters than it is to fight one CR 17. It has been noted that the Linnorm are weak for their CR, and comparing it to the Marilith and Ancient Green Dragon I think whoever said that was right.
Those Swordsage abilites don't work like blink. The Shadow Jaunt is only a teleport affect. There is no miss chance involved.
The Linnorm in this case should have been flying. Being on the ground is not fighting on its terms, and while the breath weapon hurts more people the full attack normally does more damage. I would have flown over to the cleric/healer, and focues all my energy on him. If I took him out I would have moved on the wizard. Next would have been whoever the Linnorm thought the best ranged attacker was.
What are their AC's? I might have something you can use. :)
edit:What are their saves also? I just need an estimate.
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Fair enough. Templates needed. The next humanoid foes the party faces will be built with the CharOp handbooks onscreen, but I'm not so far ahead on the monster building. Any suggestions for good sources? I'm working with just about everything WotC and Paizo.
Yeah. I actually expected the True Seeing to scare them out of that particular combat. However, the lesson I fail time and again to learn is that solo boss monsters will die faster than they should. Next time, I learn my lesson. multiple monsters.
EDIT: Yes, it's the Eberron Artificer. I've been giving out almost no downtime, but by the time I learned that, it was too late.
AC 37 is the greatest offender. A large part of it also applies to touch attacks. The AC 37 character only has one weakness I can find - bad Fort save. She still has to be hit before the poisons kick in.
About the swordsage abilities - sorry, I misspoke. I never meant to compare them to the blink spell in d20. I play too many video games.
Good saves are in the high teens and low twenties. Bad saves are into the low teens.
Fair enough. Templates needed. The next humanoid foes the party faces will be built with the CharOp handbooks onscreen, but I'm not so far ahead on the monster building. Any suggestions for good sources? I'm working with just about everything WotC and Paizo.
Yeah. I actually expected the True Seeing to scare them out of that particular combat. However, the lesson I fail time and again to learn is that solo boss monsters will die faster than they should. Next time, I learn my lesson. multiple monsters.
EDIT: Yes, it's the Eberron Artificer. I've been giving out almost no downtime, but by the time I learned that, it was too late.
AC 37 is the greatest offender. A large part of it also applies to touch attacks. The AC 37 character only has one weakness I can find - bad Fort save. She still has to be hit before the poisons kick in.
About the swordsage abilities - sorry, I misspoke. I never meant to compare them to the blink spell in d20. I play too many video games.
What type of creature/class are you expecting for your next boss? If you have a secondary email you mind putting on display I might be able to get something to you. Possibly within the next few minutes, but if not tomorrow night eastern standard time at the latest. I have a few things I never got to use. If you don't have a secondary email I can post the monster to a file storing site and post a link once I upload the file.
This is a sample of one of my creations. Her name is Xenila
By the "adding classes to monster" rule she is only a CR 10, but by the CR chart she is closer to a 12, so the XP is up to you.
edit:That link is to the weak version.
AC 37 is the greatest offender. A large part of it also applies to touch attacks. The AC 37 character only has one weakness I can find - bad Fort save. She still has to be hit before the poisons kick in.
Area effect spells that cause poison or disease.
Don't forget to use your environment as well to cause your players grief.
You need new friends if your current ones will hold your friendship ransom over a game.
Is there anyone that can't teleport on their own?
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The PCs are fighting Aberrations. The plot involves an invasion from the plane of Xoriat, so it's mostly Magical Beasts and Aberrations, and their humanoid cultist followers. Their next step is to infiltrate the enemy airship and find out where the enemy forces are attacking from, so it's going to be Aberrations.
Is there anyone that can't teleport on their own?
Yes, though some dirty tricks involving high-end storage items allow the Swordsage to bring people along if time is not an issue. If time *is* an issue, the Warblade and Artificer are stranded.
Secondary email= ivan.shadowski@gmail.com
You need new friends if your current ones will hold your friendship ransom over a game.
They've never actually threatened to drop me as a friend if something went wrong with the game. However, bringing about serious issues in a long running game (with a very involved storyline, players are very attached to seeing a proper end to it) would be considered incredibly rude of me.
My suggestion?
Start making up templates.
I had a level 20 party that needed a challenge.
They could roll the tarrasque like it was a chump.
So. I made a template that fit in with the storyline.
The Shadowfel template.
Now. You probably don't want to include all the abilites. ESPECIALLY the Shadow ability.
But.. It can wreck house with players.
Template-Shadowfel Tainted
This is an applied template that can be added to any creature that could be deemed to have a ‘soul’. The consequences of this severs the soul in half, creating a shadow to the creature that acts independently of the creature itself. The creature usually is reduced to madness should it have the intelligence to do so. While its shadow generally wrecks havoc.
Size and Type- Size remains the same. The shadow type is a Outsider(Shadow)
Speed-The base creature remains the same, but the shadow is able to fly at twice the base land speed. The range on this is about 80ft. Meaning that the shadow
Armor Class- The base creature has the same armor class, but the shadow has +20 to its dexterity for the purposes of armor class and reflex saves
Attack-Same as before, but now gains two attacks from a standard action.
Full Attack-Same as before, but double the attacks
Damage-The Base creature does the same damage as before, as the shadow does semi corporal damage. It has the ability to hit creatures on the material plane, ethereal plane, and the shadow plane all at the same time.
Special attacks-Same as base creature. The Shadow gains the ability to cleave into the soul essence of creatures. When a creature is reduced to 0 or less hit points by the shadow, while it still has remaining attacks. It can force the creature to make a will save (10+1/2 hit die+Wisdom modifier) or take 2d8 wisdom drain. Anyone within 30 ft that witness this must make a fortitude save equal to this or be sickened for 1 minute.
Spell-like abilities- The Shadow can Shadow Walk at will
Special Qualities- Same as base creature plus-
Darkvision 60ft
The Shadow- The Shadow is the creature’s shadow given terrible intelligence and form. It is not dispersed through daylight or similar effects. It is immune to all effects of the material realm. Only through great divine intervention, or similar binding effects can it be kept –dead-. Its main limitation is that it is tied to the base creature, giving it only 80 ft of movement from the body. It cannot directly effect the base creature physically. Thus, if that is killed, it is effectively neutralized. The shadow itself is very resistant to divine effects. Granting it a +4 Saving throw to the base creature against all divine effects.
Abilities-20 to Dexterity for purposes of armor class, Reduction of Wisdom to three.
Challenge Rating-+5
I put this template.. On the tarrasque. And this was after I got the pathfinder core rulebook. This was a 3.5 game. They had to find the spell binding. As.. that was the only way to keep the shadow part under control.
Was a pretty epic fight. Mostly resulted in them keeping it at bay for a few hours while they searched for that spell.
You can normally kill the base creature, and then let the shadow's speed be reduced as it drags the dead creature. Though. The players can screw up too. The link is a meta-physical one.
The wrong spell and..
The shadow is loose. That is when things get bad.
But this is only one idea. There are hundreds out there.
If you want to really throw them for a loop. Send a few apostles of peace after them. From the book of exalted deeds.
Do a magic missile force mage. With some incantrix. And Spell thesis. 200 damage that they can't dodge or anything with can be very annoying.
The PCs are fighting Aberrations. The plot involves an invasion from the plane of Xoriat, so it's mostly Magical Beasts and Aberrations, and their humanoid cultist followers. Their next step is to infiltrate the enemy airship and find out where the enemy forces are attacking from, so it's going to be Aberrations.
Is there anyone that can't teleport on their own?Yes, though some dirty tricks involving high-end storage items allow the Swordsage to bring people along if time is not an issue. If time *is* an issue, the Warblade and Artificer are stranded.
Secondary email= ivan.shadowski@gmail.com
You need new friends if your current ones will hold your friendship ransom over a game.They've never actually threatened to drop me as a friend if something went wrong with the game. However, bringing about serious issues in a long running game (with a very involved storyline, players are very attached to seeing a proper end to it) would be considered incredibly rude of me.
You should be getting an email in about 2 minutes if you don't already have it.
edit:The contingency thing I have for the casters is not rules legal. I just never got around to fixing it.
They've never actually threatened to drop me as a friend if something went wrong with the game. However, bringing about serious issues in a long running game (with a very involved storyline, players are very attached to seeing a proper end to it) would be considered incredibly rude of me.
Do they know you're not having fun? Talk it over with them. Maybe as a group you can come to some mutually agreeable solution. The DM has just as much a right to enjoy the game as the players.
Trying to one-up and escalate through in-game methods can only end in resentment.
They've never actually threatened to drop me as a friend if something went wrong with the game. However, bringing about serious issues in a long running game (with a very involved storyline, players are very attached to seeing a proper end to it) would be considered incredibly rude of me.Do they know you're not having fun? Talk it over with them. Maybe as a group you can come to some mutually agreeable solution. The DM has just as much a right to enjoy the game as the players.
Trying to one-up and escalate through in-game methods can only end in resentment.
I would honestly force them to boot me from the chair. Maybe once they sit in it for a while they will be more appreciative. As for now I hope he does not run any more campaigns after this one until one of them runs one.
Well my suggestion would be : Time to get political plot !!!
Stop the usual dungeon crawling, give some of them nobility title and give them invitation to a ball, they can't get there with all their stuff on... Assassin on the other way will be fully geared, poison in food doesn't need to touch high AC...
At the level they are now they are powerful enough to be a forces every noble wish to count on... :)
And every ennemies of their new lord will go at great expense to disable them... :p
Well my suggestion would be : Time to get political plot !!!
Stop the usual dungeon crawling, give some of them nobility title and give them invitation to a ball, they can't get there with all their stuff on... Assassin on the other way will be fully geared, poison in food doesn't need to touch high AC...
At the level they are now they are powerful enough to be a forces every noble wish to count on... :)
And every ennemies of their new lord will go at great expense to disable them... :p
I always(once I get to the level where I have the money) have some sort of "calling" ability on my armor and some magic items. It seems his players are smart enough to do the same.
I always(once I get to the level where I have the money) have some sort of "calling" ability on my armor and some magic items. It seems his players are smart enough to do the same.Well my suggestion would be : Time to get political plot !!!
Stop the usual dungeon crawling, give some of them nobility title and give them invitation to a ball, they can't get there with all their stuff on... Assassin on the other way will be fully geared, poison in food doesn't need to touch high AC...
At the level they are now they are powerful enough to be a forces every noble wish to count on... :)
And every ennemies of their new lord will go at great expense to disable them... :p
Really? What property does this? Cuz' i'll be getting it fersure./
Really? What property does this? Cuz' i'll be getting it fersure./I always(once I get to the level where I have the money) have some sort of "calling" ability on my armor and some magic items. It seems his players are smart enough to do the same.Well my suggestion would be : Time to get political plot !!!
Stop the usual dungeon crawling, give some of them nobility title and give them invitation to a ball, they can't get there with all their stuff on... Assassin on the other way will be fully geared, poison in food doesn't need to touch high AC...
At the level they are now they are powerful enough to be a forces every noble wish to count on... :)
And every ennemies of their new lord will go at great expense to disable them... :p
It is in the MiC. There is also a ring or necklace,that has mini version of your magic items attached to it.
MiC(Magic Item compendium) page 9 Armor Property "Called" 2000 gp
MiC Ring of Arming stores weapons and armor 5000gp, page 122
there is another item also. but I can't find it.
Really? What property does this? Cuz' i'll be getting it fersure./I always(once I get to the level where I have the money) have some sort of "calling" ability on my armor and some magic items. It seems his players are smart enough to do the same.Well my suggestion would be : Time to get political plot !!!
Stop the usual dungeon crawling, give some of them nobility title and give them invitation to a ball, they can't get there with all their stuff on... Assassin on the other way will be fully geared, poison in food doesn't need to touch high AC...
At the level they are now they are powerful enough to be a forces every noble wish to count on... :)
And every ennemies of their new lord will go at great expense to disable them... :p
It is in the MiC. There is also a ring or necklace,that has mini version of your magic items attached to it.
MiC(Magic Item compendium) page 9 Armor Property "Called" 2000 gp
MiC Ring of Arming stores weapons and armor 5000gp, page 122
there is another item also. but I can't find it.
I found the last item.
It is also in the MiCpage 147 wand bracelet cost 12000. It can store up to four items and they appear as charms so nobody will know what they are.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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My players are also of the twelve books/ homebrew PrC variety and eat single monsters for breakfast. They are 12th and I recently REALLY challenged them with 7th and 9th level bullywugs - three bow spec fighter 6/rogue 3s and two cleric 7s. The bullywugs had spent their gear allowance on potions and had the chance to buff. Giving them elite arrays and decent feats (and a flaw or two) brought them up to PC equivalent as far as ability scores went.
Invisible, Non-detection, Haste, Fly, Bulls Strength, Cats Grace, Bears Endurance, Heroics potions or buffs from the clerics.
Spell lists for the clerics drawn from Book of Vile Darkness and Spell Compendium. Summon Monster IV to summon Voor Yugoloths (MM4?) instead of boring MM stuff. Bullywug clerics having a 50% chance to summon 2 instead of 1 makes it extra fun.
Open up from above with four shots from composite mighty longbows using arrows of human slaying, and ALL twelve shots (+19/+19/+19/+14) aimed at the wizard and each doing 1d8+9+2d6 - that scared them!
Following up with dropping Voor Yugoloths all over the shop really messed with the party - they had lots of goals at the same time. Revive the wizard, secure a perimeter, watch out for 10 enemies spread over 3 dimensions - the useless summonses closing on the downed wiz and the tricky bullywugs flying at a distance and nowhere near each other.
It was a great fight - and for 5 level 13 equivalent characters, a surprisingly nasty EL13 encounter. Their next challenges will involve Puggwampi druids riding advanced Raghodessa's and a Roper living amongst 24 advanced (CR3) Shocker Lizards with Ability Focus (Lethal Blast). He's immune to electricity, right? :-)
Thats 4 x 12d8 blasts 40'radius every single round! They attack the big scary roper and all these little lizards run out of holes in the ground. They may even drop a few PCs before the cloudkills come out!
(All Credit for roper idea to Shilsen from enworld btw)
Another good idea - Vampire Beholder. Level draining bite, all the usual rays, and then it goes all gaseous form and floats away! Or two beholders, at opposite ends of a tunnel, alternating antimagic cones and rays with clever use of ready and delay.
Seriously though - no single monsters!
Well, nobody's provided this advice yet, so... here's how our DM challenged us in epic level play.
1. Attack them while they're sleeping. They've not yet re-memorized spells. They're not in armor. They don't have buffs up. Their weapons, items and potions are not on them. And don't allow any "I always sleep with all my items on me!" nonsense.
2. Separate the party. My DM got us into a battle in which we were each in simultaneous one on one fights with an opponent who had the same schtick or used the opposite approach. Cleric vs. Wizard. Brute vs. Speed guy. Brute vs. Brute. It was frickin' awesome.
3. Anti-magic fights are always cool.
4. Have them in a dream world adventure. In their dreams, they've been regressed to kids, they're being hunted by an enemy, and the best way to win is to find a way to wake up. Best thing? The dream world's rules shift. Frequently. PCs might want to figure out how to control those shifts or initiate them yourself.
5. Sunder. Every magic weapon is vulnerable to that one. Give fair warning to your players by having the ginormous opponent sunder something big in the flavor text introducing the opponent. Watch the fighters figure out what their backup weapons are and draw those instead.
6. Archers with Long Range sniping. Do you have any idea what the spot penalty is to find a sniper a half mile away?
7. Diplomacy missions. If you're twinked out for combat, you probably don't have a great face man. Time to put on your RP hats for a night.
8. Propaganda. Charisma villains suck to fight. They don't fight you. They ruin you. They hire bards to malign you, spread false rumors, diplomacy ex-lovers into writing tell-all books, use influence to make it impossible for you to get an audience with anyone important... Worst of all, they might use these techniques to make it so that one person in the party gets all the credit, hoping to turn the PCs against one another.
9. Repeat after me: MIRROR OF OPPOSITION.
I just realized something. They don't have a cleric or a druid. Have them go up against a cabal of divine casters. You're looking for 4 encounters here, and you should boost their effective level by +1 for equipment, +1 for splat books, and +1 for synergies/tactical abilities of the players.
That means the four encounters could be something like EL 17 (mook cultists), 18 (Pet monsters/guard creatures), 19 (several clerics or druids in the Lieutenants encounter) and the level 20 BBEG encounter, which should feature the Big Caster with full spells and fully buffed, an effective planar ally or other dangerous brute figure, and beginning the battle with summoned creatures. (After all, surely the BBEG heard the prior three combats, yes?)
Use Word of Recall or Tree Stride to create a nice ongoing villain. Nothing frosts a player's shorts more than a villainous laugh followed by an effective escape plan.
6. Archers with Long Range sniping. Do you have any idea what the spot penalty is to find a sniper a half mile away?
yes, 264...
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Giants and other creatures with "unassociated class levels" were the big cheat in Living Greyhawk. Also, divine metamagic and the feat that lets you spend turn attempts to raise spell level by 4 made for deadly encounters. Have a cleric Blasphamy at 4 levels higher than his true level... Dead party. Or have the God-help-you Mind Flayer with "unassociated" levels in monk so it's tentacles always grapple. Talk about your tpks; that module was disgusting.
Or just have a dragon cast anti-magic field and eat the party :).
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I think the key was to make people want to put down 3.5 stuff forever, "That Damn Crab" was an example of how silly CRs are.
Again, for 3.5 divine metamagic was the biggest cheat in the game, and the +4 levels for turn attempts was up there as well. The dervish, properly built, could do over 100 damage consistantly, with full move, and maintain a stupidly high AC (swashbuckler 3 fighter 2 dervish X).
Add 4 levels of sorcerer to a brute monster....this only increases CR by 2, and choose True Strike, Mage Armor (if normally unarmored), Shield (if normally not using a shield), Wraithstrike (Spell Compendium: swift action to cast, 1 round of resolving melee attacks as touch attacks).
Maybe give the brute boss 6 levels of sorcerer and take Energy Resistance and Haste or Heroics.
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or your character with 37 AC and a low fort save, try a Heightened Blindness/Deafness, Cloudkill, or even a Destruction spell. The first two can wear down the character's ability scores, and the third deals hella damage.
I agree with the posts above that say you need more than one monster. Try a wizard with the above spells to wear your party down, then don't give them time to recover--there's a CR 16 tank creature running down the hall. NOW see if they get out without a scratch.
Anti-magic fields, dispel magic, etc. are very useful. At such high levels, you could even get away with a mage's disjunction. "Oh, that +3 vorpal sword? It's a normal sword now."
One idea for an encounter: Take a dweomercat cub (CR 2, Kingmaker #6 p. 82). Give it the Advanced Template and the Giant template (so it's size small and has a threat range greater than 0 ft.) from the Bestiary. Now give it 10 levels of Cleric. Choose Channel Negative and the domains Murder and Deception (from the APG). The cat now has insane mobility. It can go pretty much anywhere as a move action, and it can easily move into flanking as an immediate action. It even gets full-round attacks as immediate actions against people who cast spells at it. It can also heal itself with channel energy.
Now create two human rogue ghosts. Give them the Seasonal template (Advanced Bestiary p. 218), and use stats for Spring. This will give them +4 Dex and Str. They should be level 11 (making them each CR 12 and thus the whole encounter CR 16). Give them Ghost Touch weapons and armor. They can benefit from channeled energy and can do massive sneak attack damage when flanking with each other--or your dweomercat.
Now give everybody the Outflank feat and you're good to go.
High AC/low Fort save:
Swarms. Automatic damage in the PC's square. Fort saves to resist full effects.
Javoguv?
Mr. Fishy can't remember the name in one of the 3.5 monster manuals is a demon with a aura of retribution every creature in 30 feet takes the same damage as the demon.
Massive power hit does 50 damage every one in 30" takes 50 damage no save. It's cheap but they have fast healing too. Also demons are immune to the aura.
Or a ghoul archer [ranger] with slaying arrows. A advance fiendish rust monster. Or you could turn the party againist it's self, Mirror of Opposition. Win or die.
I'm a big fan of Quickened spell-like abilities. Some of my favorites are Quickened Maximized Magic Missiles (a nice extra 25 points of damage per round, 3 rounds a day), and Quickened, Maximized, Widened Unholy Blight (hurts the Good PCs, does not affect the Evil NPCs, causing 40 points of damage (will for half) and sickened 4 rounds).
Quickened spells, swift actions, free actions, etc., should be emphasized if you're going to send a single beastie against a party. They're even useful when you do as recommended above and send several beasties against the party.
MM3 has the Eldritch Knight, which is a Huge tank with Quickened Magic Missile, Quickened Dispel Magic, and some other nice spell-like abilities.
Rocks fall everybody dies...ROCKS FALL!
Think minimalist. Use the small to destroy the large.
Template stacking
Everybody has a weakness, exploit it!
This makes me want to release rooms from The Cheese Grinder. People have asked in the past. Hmmmmmm