We've all been there- that moment when you think nothing is going on while you are shopping in the local bizarre.. and the DM has you roll initiative. Your characters look around seeing nothing out of the ordinary but suddenly, inexplicably, combat rules are now in order.
When do You consider "combat" to be engaged?
There are several very important game changes that occur between "in combat' and "out of combat"
Standing there at the fruit stand, you and a good 3/4 of your party can very nearly be in the same 5 foot of each other pondering a mid-morning snack. You can see in front of you clearly but a rogue slipping by behind you goes virtually unnoticed.. unless you have eyes in the back of your head.
Once "combat" is declared we seem to enter an almost "final fantasy" type combat episode. Suddenly PC's spread out to each occupy a different 5 foot square and you each magically gain the ability to see 360 degrees around you perfectly. There is no more "front" or "behind".
When does this happen? How do you handle it as a DM or player?
That wizard on the rooftop who just Fireballed the group in the surprise round- do you give him any sort of bonus to not being seen since the PC's weren't facing his direction when he cast the spell or do you let the "logic" of "well, they were looking at the apple stand" prevail?
(note, if you Do that, the PC's will of course also seek to take advantage of it in their combats).
I realize that to some extent we Have to give up logic to have a smooth flowing game. I'm just curious how you all handle such interactions in your games. at Some point you have to deal with "normal" flowing into "combat mode" and the rules changes that come with it..
assuming you don't just assume PC's always are 5 ft apart and have 360 degree vision..
Thoughts?
-S
Hard to say! As a GM i usually look at my notes, try to figure the scene while doing a quick sketch of the surroundings ( if at a table top game ) and look at what chances there are that some PC can possibly see the incoming troubles....in other words if they weren't looking in the right directions they shouldn't be allowed to have a clue. But then my player personality comes up, making me remember that as a player i would like to have a little chance to be aware of a starting combat;this has pissed me off many times in the past.
And there are class/race skills to consider which sometimes can be very difficult to adjust ( i don't have Blindsight, so despite how well it is described in the rules it is always a pain in the a**e to figure whether that PC can sense that monster )
For me any unexpected combat starts with a surprise round. That is the way we go from 'normal' to combat. So that fireball smashes into the fruitstand and is resolved in a normal fashion. After that combat as it is, starts.
People do naturally spread out to a degree when fighting (unless fighting in formation) thus the spreading to 5ft spaces makes alot of sense. After all if you know your buddy the barbarian is gonna be swinging that axe it's best to give him a wide bearth.
As for advantages, there already are some. The players are flatfooted in a surprise round (untill they go) so the caught unawares part is already handled by the rules.
As for the 360 degree vision, I guess thats just something we have to sacrifice for an easy to use game. In fact the stealth rules as they exist, dont allow that rogue to sneak behind the player even out of combat. (see a series of posts way back involving Jack B. Nimble and a farmer) So at least in that sense, there isnt a 'rules' change by the games standards there.
If they are at a local vendor or discussing plans for a fruit smoothie for lunch, wouldn't it be just as likely as a DM to say, "As you discuss the benefits of a banana smoothie against those of a pineapple smoothie, you are bumped from behind followed by a sharp pain radiating up your back, your hand instinctively grips the spot, and you look and see your hand covered in blood."
And then the battle commences. At that point, it is assumed instinct in the 6 second round in which this pro-banana party member got stabbed, that the rest of the party might turn their heads to see what/who did something. I think that would be how I handle the situation. Rolling initiatives before a surprise round, makes the surprise round seem less surprising to me. And if they are doing something else.. especially with their backs turned, they would have huge penalties to their perception check, even if they are just circumstantial at the time.
Don't the PC's generally get a roll to see if they get to participate in the surprise round though? Or do you simply assume the PC's got duped and are now in combat?
Basically- you use non-combat rules to get "behind" the PC's and then initiate combat?
-S
Don't the PC's generally get a roll to see if they get to participate in the surprise round though? Or do you simply assume the PC's got duped and are now in combat?
Basically- you use non-combat rules to get "behind" the PC's and then initiate combat?
-S
I dunno.
DM: Make a Perception check.
Player: 37
DM: You see a person.
Player: Is there anything odd about this person?
DM:No, he looks just like the other 50 people in the market. But, roll initiative anyway.
I enter combat whenever I sit down at the table. No, really, I do. :P
My combat rounds start with initiative rolls, if bad guys do stuff before that in the surprise round then these go ahead and when the players interact witht he scene then initiative is rolled and the comabt starts. Everyone goes on there initiative from there. If the players dont interact with the scene then they dont deserve to have combat rounds as they are basically ignoring what is happening around them, after all how would ignore the fact that the stand you have just ordered your banana smoothie from has just exploded. It has worked for me so far :)
Hope this makes sense to you LOL.
In my games, players have to tell me that they want to roll initiative, and what they're doing. Once one person says "I'm rolling initiative", everyone involved does, too.
Sometimes they wind up rolling initiative and taking actions in turn when there isn't even anything to fight. My old group famously drew swords and started holding touch spells and detecting evil when I casually mentioned they heard "a scratching sound coming from the darkened corner," or something to that effect. They assumed it was a monster - but in my head I had been picturing a common rat scurrying about. I said it as a throw-away comment; I was just trying to add some mood and character to the room they were in, but I guess they were feeling a little jumpy. ^__^ For years thereafter, whenever they drew swords based on a sound - be it was demonic chanting or the distant roar of a waking dragon - the in-joke was someone invariably saying "probably just a rat."
But I like that they have to make the decision themselves when to get serious. It makes the decision to fight feel like, well, a decision, even if the only other choice is to run or stand there with a dumb expression while a monster eats your face.
I assume everyone who is an adventurer can tell if someone is going to attack them or not. It's an instinctive, universal thing, like spider sense or danger sense.
Therefore it makes the game work a little better. In a room with a friend, suddenly you hear a loud noise. Initiative. Monster bursts through a wall, everyone rockets into combat.
On the flip side, surprise round. I succeed on my perception check to notice the ambush and roll high enough init to beat the ambushers. In essence, I surprise the surprisers who were going to surprise but were surprised by my surprise.
I love D&D combat.