Example: the first session we played, this player so disagreed with my interpretation of a rule, that he reset all the minis on the table to the beginning of the encounter and demanded we replay the battle.Any player doing that to me would get a brief lecture about how the umpire is right, even when he is wrong, and if he doesn't like it there is a door over there.
I think this is normally where MR.Fishy comes in and advises someone to grab a stick and beat a _______
I quit DMing for a group that had honestly been flailing for a while. At the time I was into BIG EPIC STORYTELLING with a group that was really super casual and just wanted to hang out. So I tried X-crawl, which is a "Magical Modern World" that has live Dungeon Crawls on National TV. (Not only do you have to kill that orc, you need to look COOL doing it too!)
We were playing X-crawl with the 3.5 rules (This is 2008, I believe just before PFRPG came out) and one of the players was a bard. She had been playing 3.x for years and still didn't know the rules. I caught her lying about her die rolls one too many times, and just realized that no matter what kind of game I ran, this kind of crap would always be an issue. That was pretty much the end of my GMing for that group.
I went and played/GMed with another group that fit much better with my play style after that.
I live with both my regular GMs, so it would make it awkward to have a "Last Straw" situation happen, so I generally resign myself to just ignore most things about the players that irk me, or the GMs I play with (not saying that I, as a GM haven't irked my players before, but I try and be a fair and honest GM).
Although, after work shifts changed for my regular DM, I decided to see what some of my oldest friends were up to, after finding out that they had picked up D&D 3.0 and had been playing for about a year now, and were meeting up when I wasn't working or busy.
Mind you, I am only in my early 20's at the moment, meaning my roleplaying experience is about 9 years now, so my last straw experiences have been far and few between.
But this game made me shudder at the way it was done.
I sat in the lounge room, with no table to speak of, we had to sit on the floor with the GM in the only recliner in the room, almost as though he were telling us "children" a story.
GM: Make any character you can think of, here's the books, including the monster manual, use any race or template you can, but only 1 HD races are allowed out of that book. Oh by the way only 3rd edition rules, no 3.5, i hate it to death.
ME: Ian I play a lycanthrope? (admittedly I was going through a shapechanger phase at this point, which i am thoroughly out of now, thankfully).
GM: Sure, go right ahead!
ME: Are you allowing half race variants, like, half elf with another type of elf as the other half?
GM: Like what?
Me: Half Drow, Half Aquatic Elf with the Aquatic adaption feat from Races of Faerun?
GM: That sounds like a brilliant character concept for my homebrew world, go ahead, just add another LA penalty!
ME: Okay I am a Half Drow/Half Aquatic Elf with Natural Lycanthropy-Weretiger Fighter!
This worked well, as it was a concept I had had a lot of fun with in another group before, the ultimate insurgent, 120 ft darkvision, water breathing, awesome STR for Damage and good DEX and CON too, I was quite proud of my creation, and so was the GM, he threw all he could at me, but soon I realised that the GM had not opened a book since I had got there, 5 hours ago...
This screamed "leave now!" In my gut, but I ignored it. I even ignored every creature having silver weapons, and even ignored the DMPC cleric refusing to heal me, because the DMPC had decided that I was unclean, and needed to be purified.
The last straw came when out of nowhere, the words "You all fall unconscious" came out of the GMs mouth and we all woke in single cells covered with and Anti-Magic Field and no way to open the doors. We tried for 15 minutes to try and get out, when the anti magic field dropped, and the doors opened into an Arena...filled with Half Fiend Storm Giants...Each dual wielding over sized greatswords like longswords...I played as long as I could until the inevitable TPK happened, and instead of creating new characters in another campaign or even another part of the current campaign to pick the story line back up, we had to have 1st level characters created, only to have them walk out into that same arena...
I packed up my dice, handed the GM the character sheets and said quite politely "I am sorry, but I cannot play this game anymore, I play a very different style of game, and as such am not really compatible with this style of play. I am really sorry to drop out, but this style of gameplay will only make me irate and not a very nice person to play with, so I am dropping out to save people not liking me, and if you ever wish to be a player, you are more than welcome to call me, and I will be more than happy to GM for you and your group."
I thought I was being as polite and to the point as I could be, but as I haven't heard from him since, in fact, according to some of the other players from that group, they struggled with that encounter for 3 days before saying that they were quitting the campaign and another friend of mine was to GM. He has never played with that group again.
just one of my experiences with the last straw, all the others aren't going to be posted here, as some of my group frequent the board and know my handle, I would prefer not to be seen as a bad person for bad mouthing someone, although I doubt any of them would really care that much, to be honest.
MR.Fishy comes in and advises someone to grab a stick
A fish stick?
MR.Fishy comes in and advises someone to grab a stickA fish stick?
Jokes like that give me a haddock.
-The Gneech
MR.Fishy comes in and advises someone to grab a stickA fish stick?Jokes like that give me a haddock.
-The Gneech
You don't have to listen to those sorts of puns if you are hard of herring.
You don't have to listen to those sorts of puns if you are hard of herring.MR.Fishy comes in and advises someone to grab a stickA fish stick?Jokes like that give me a haddock.
-The Gneech
He just said that for the halibut.
He just said that for the halibut.You don't have to listen to those sorts of puns if you are hard of herring.MR.Fishy comes in and advises someone to grab a stickA fish stick?Jokes like that give me a haddock.
-The Gneech
I think he just wants to crab attention
The last straw came when out of nowhere, the words "You all fall unconscious" came out of the GMs mouth and we all woke in single cells covered with and Anti-Magic Field and no way to open the doors. We tried for 15 minutes to try and get out, when the anti magic field dropped, and the doors opened into an Arena...
Ah, the lousy DM's secret weapons: "you fall unconscious, no save" and "you're in an unescapable anti-magic room".
:-)
Two years ago, my wife and I ran into an old gaming friend of mine (whom I'll call Stewart for anonymity purposes) at her company Christmas party (he had come as the date of one of her coworkers). He mentioned he'd been missing playing D&D and asked if we would like to come to his house sometime for a 3.5 game set on the continent of Taladas (basically bizarro Dragonlance, with which I was minimally familiar); he volunteered to GM. We agreed and showed up for the first session about two weeks later.
Stewart began the story by placing all of us as slaves aboard a minotaur ship traveling north from Ansalon to Taladas. The party makeup, as I recall, was a Silvanesti elf mage (me), a kender handler (my wife), a human rogue, and a Sivak draconian fighter. Shortly after the adventure started, Stewart ruled that because the kender had done something to displease one of the minotaur overseers (I think she wriggled out of her bonds), the minotaur instantly broke her arms. No attack roll, no grapple check, no use of the hit point system or any other mechanic - the minotaur just walked in and broke her arms. Not only was this arbitrary, it made the rest of the session almost no fun at all for her, because until we got off the boat and got her medical treatment, she was effectively useless as a handler aside from being able to taunt.
A week later, we came back to play again and he did the same thing to the human rogue - only this time, instead of just breaking a limb, he actually killed the character (who was being held at knifepoint to get us to comply with the villains' demands). Again, no grapple or pin check to see if the rogue was actually held, no attack or damage roll for the dagger or called shot to the throat, and the character wasn't helpless - he just ruled that the villain was in a position to slit the rogue's throat, and he was dead.
By extension, so was the game. No one came back after that session, and my wife and I refused every request from Stewart to play in one of his games ever since. Taking away all semblance of control and fairness from your players just isn't any fun for them, and I don't think he's ever learned that lesson.
Just checking to see if this is "over the top". I am in a pathfinder mod for the Orcus series. The monsters in the game seem a bit strong to me. Last night we fought 2 basilisk (the first one turned half the party to stone, but fresh blood from a basilisk fixes that I guess). Then we fought 3 Su-monsters, monkey like things with a stunning mind blast. After almost tpking on those we move on into a room where a vrok deamon almost takes us out. 6 party members at lvl 5. It was a rough night...
The dm also annouced that he had open slots in his friday game as the party TPK'ed and half the group left.
he actually killed the character (who was being held at knifepoint to get us to comply with the villains' demands).
I'd actually pay that one though... if someone is being held blade at throt then they are basically stuffed. The old 'gun to the head' is a common tactic for a reason - and barring sone kind of distraction allowing the rogue to break free...
At least a Coup De Grace.
I'd actually pay that one though... if someone is being held blade at throt then they are basically stuffed. The old 'gun to the head' is a common tactic for a reason - and barring sone kind of distraction allowing the rogue to break free...
Perhaps something like the Rogue who probably has enough ranks in Escape Artist to automatically gain Profession (contortionist), wiggling around a bit and getting free?
Two years ago, my wife and I ran into an old gaming friend of mine (whom I'll call Stewart for anonymity purposes) at her company Christmas party (he had come as the date of one of her coworkers). He mentioned he'd been missing playing D&D and asked if we would like to come to his house sometime for a 3.5 game set on the continent of Taladas (basically bizarro Dragonlance, with which I was minimally familiar); he volunteered to GM. We agreed and showed up for the first session about two weeks later.
Stewart began the story by placing all of us as slaves aboard a minotaur ship traveling north from Ansalon to Taladas. The party makeup, as I recall, was a Silvanesti elf mage (me), a kender handler (my wife), a human rogue, and a Sivak draconian fighter. Shortly after the adventure started, Stewart ruled that because the kender had done something to displease one of the minotaur overseers (I think she wriggled out of her bonds), the minotaur instantly broke her arms. No attack roll, no grapple check, no use of the hit point system or any other mechanic - the minotaur just walked in and broke her arms. Not only was this arbitrary, it made the rest of the session almost no fun at all for her, because until we got off the boat and got her medical treatment, she was effectively useless as a handler aside from being able to taunt.
A week later, we came back to play again and he did the same thing to the human rogue - only this time, instead of just breaking a limb, he actually killed the character (who was being held at knifepoint to get us to comply with the villains' demands). Again, no grapple or pin check to see if the rogue was actually held, no attack or damage roll for the dagger or called shot to the throat, and the character wasn't helpless - he just ruled that the villain was in a position to slit the rogue's throat, and he was dead.
By extension, so was the game. No one came back after that session, and my wife and I refused every request from Stewart to play in one of his games ever since. Taking away...
Bad Steward, he gives my beloved Taladas a bad name. TALADAS FOREVER!!!!!!!! TALADAS TRILOGY FOREVER!!!!!!!
Perhaps something like the Rogue who probably has enough ranks in Escape Artist to automatically gain Profession (contortionist), wiggling around a bit and getting free?
Yeah but you move (start to wriggle) you get knifed. Given that a rogue is ideal for being wriggly enough to pull that sort of stunt, I'd probably allow a bluff check to distract (or not give away any 'tells' they were about to move) then an Escape Artistry roll the next round.
Might still end up getting shanked, but it might not be too messy.
Perhaps something like the Rogue who probably has enough ranks in Escape Artist to automatically gain Profession (contortionist), wiggling around a bit and getting free?Yeah but you move (start to wriggle) you get knifed. Given that a rogue is ideal for being wriggly enough to pull that sort of stunt, I'd probably allow a bluff check to distract (or not give away any 'tells' they were about to move) then an Escape Artistry roll the next round.
Might still end up getting shanked, but it might not be too messy.
So every time some one is pinned, or even grappled, they can be coup-de-gace'd? Not playing in your game.
So every time some one is pinned, or even grappled, they can be coup-de-gace'd? Not playing in your game.
Who said that? other than you of course.
The point was that the player (as described) was held at knifepoint... not rolling around on the ground or attempting to un-grapple from a clinch - we are talking dead to rights held in place with a knife at the jugular. If you are that stupid and tactically careless that you find yourself captured like that then you have brought upon yourself some bad juju. A clever person might be able to make a break and get away, but for the average lay-person it's going to end messy.
By your logic, someone being executed on the chopping block should have the executioner make a separate attack roll and apply base damage each round, or you should get a grapple check against the noose. Some days its not just lava = death.
I appreciate your dogmatic approach to the mechanics of the system, however RAW states - A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.. Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced "coo day grahs") to a helpless opponent.
So yeah by RAW you are up for a Coup de grace.
Thats the big boys table.
I appreciate your dogmatic approach to the mechanics of the system, however RAW states - A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.. Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced "coo day grahs") to a helpless opponent.
So yeah by RAW you are up for a Coup de grace.
Thats the big boys table.
Perhaps upon your rules excursion at the big boy's table, you managed to notice that the helpless condition - a prerequisite for a coup-de-grace - includes neither the pinned nor grappled condition in its list of causes? In fact, the rules defining how a character can act when pinned are not the same as the ones for when they are helpless. They are mutually exclusive conditions.
The point was that the player (as described) was held at knifepoint... not rolling around on the ground or attempting to un-grapple from a clinch - we are talking dead to rights held in place with a knife at the jugular. If you are that stupid and tactically careless that you find yourself captured like that then you have brought upon yourself some bad juju. A clever person might be able to make a break and get away, but for the average lay-person it's going to end messy.
Except that the player wasn't that stupid or tactically careless.
A week later, we came back to play again and he did the same thing to the human rogue - only this time, instead of just breaking a limb, he actually killed the character (who was being held at knifepoint to get us to comply with the villains' demands). Again, no grapple or pin check to see if the rogue was actually held, no attack or damage roll for the dagger or called shot to the throat, and the character wasn't helpless - he just ruled that the villain was in a position to slit the rogue's throat, and he was dead.
Sounds like the DM simply said the villian grabs you and puts a knife to your throat and kills you. Sounds like a super fun game.
Your last line was unnecessary and beneath you Shifty.
I admit to getting a little tired and shirty when presented with people who want to focus solely on some parts of the rules and handwave away anything they don't like.
Anyhow, back to Cartigan...
'Otherwise completely at an opponents mercy' is a good description for being held in the classic knife to throat/gun at head scenario.
In this classic move from both real life AND fiction the person has been 'taken captive' and although the attacker might be holding an arm around you to keep you close, this isn't a 'grapple' as the target isn't resisting. The victim might have gotten there in a multitude of ways, including willingly surrendering 'hand in the air' etc.
No one is mentioning pins or grapples.
No one is mentioning pins or grapples.
No one is mentioning pins or grapples.
No one is mentioning pins or grapples.
No one is mentioning pins or grapples.
Have we got that point yet?
Perhaps something like the Rogue who probably has enough ranks in Escape Artist to automatically gain Profession (contortionist), wiggling around a bit and getting free?
I'd actually pay that one though... if someone is being held blade at throt then they are basically stuffed. The old 'gun to the head' is a common tactic for a reason - and barring sone kind of distraction allowing the rogue to break free...
There are ways out of this, it all depends on how the person is held. If you aren't holding someone at all and are just pointing a gun at their head within three feet and they have free movement, pray they are not trained in unarmed combat because if they are you just handed them the gun. If it's a knife it's a different story, but by and large to be effective you have to have hold of them with the other hand and again, and if they know what they are doing the best you are likely to manage is an average knife wound as they will protect the throat - usually by taking control of the knife.
If they are helpless then it's whole different ballgame, they are just dead.
There are ways out of this, it all depends on how the person is held.If they are helpless then it's whole different ballgame, they are just dead.
Indeed, hence why I was referencing possible ways out, a distraction (bluff) followed by some quick escape moves (escape artist), or maybe the friendly ranger making a very precise shot at the captor, presenting a chance to escape.
I must agree with near everyone else here on the whole throat cutting issue:
1) Slitting a throat (by which I mean, cutting open someone's carotid arteries) is nowhere near as easy as Shifty and "Stewart" seem to think it is, especially if everyone involved is a trained combatant. Unless you have the knife literally pressed up against someone's throat to the point where you're already hurting them, simply slicing across the throat is likely to do nothing more than a flesh wound. (Although I suppose, accepting the magical realism of the game, a magic knife would make this easier.)
2) Leaving the real world aside, the game has rules to prevent the GM from arbitrarily being able to state "your character is held and now helpless." That's sort of the point that Shifty seems to be missing, with his continued tirade of "NO ONE SAID HE WAS GRAPPLED". The fact is, the GM should have handled this with a grapple, and possibly a pin. The rules are there to prevent a player from being subject to arbitrary and bad GMing - and this was, I can honestly tell you, truly bad GMing.
So Shifty - I will gladly not play any of your games either.
I'm amazed the villain didn't just conjure rocks to fall on the rogue with how arbitrary it was.
Also, I'm pretty sure just about every form of martial training that has ever existed includes like thirty different ways to get out of a "weapon to the throat" situation. It's not exactly uncommon.
Really, one of the easier tests is this: would you have allowed a player to say "Suddenly I grab the villain and put a knife under his throat! He's completely at my mercy!" I'm going to jump to the assumption that the answer is "No."
By your logic, someone being executed on the chopping block should have the executioner make a separate attack roll and apply base damage each round, or you should get a grapple check against the noose.
I also feel to need to point out how hilarious this line is, because, yeah, that's how it worked. Why do you think the guillotine was invented? It was meant to give a clean, humane execution - because executioners could take several swings of the axe before finally killing the person being executed, leading to the execution in question being extraordinarily messy, bloody, and horrible. The purpose of the noose was to snap the neck, but, plenty of times, it didn't, leading to prisoners slowly strangling to death. Yeah, the whole strangling thing? That wasn't why they used a noose. It was the sad after effect when the noose didn't work.
You're basically trying to claim realism by arguing against it.
Unless you have the knife literally pressed up against someone's throat to the point where you're already hurting them, simply slicing across the throat is likely to do nothing more than a flesh wound. (Although I suppose, accepting the magical realism of the game, a magic knife would make this easier.)
Ahhh so here's the exception. So you agree it is possible.
Thank you.So if you do have it pressed up yada yada, you agree its possible.
So why then, do you go on and then state...
The fact is, the GM should have handled this with a grapple, and possibly a pin. The rules are there to prevent a player from being subject to arbitrary and bad GMing - and this was, I can honestly tell you, truly bad GMing.
WHY?
If the player was voluntarily or coerced (maybe swapping places with a hostage or any number of reasons) into placing themselves into the position of being held captive - why - when even you have given a GAPING HOLE of an exception do you now contradict yourself and state it should be a grapple?
Amazing.
So Shifty - I will gladly not play any of your games either.
Can't stick to your own examples, and seem to struggle with RAW. It would be a loss to me because...?
Why do you think the guillotine was invented? It was meant to give a clean, humane execution - because executioners could take several swings of the axe before finally killing the person being executed, leading to the execution in question being extraordinarily messy, bloody, and horrible.
Yeah because heaps of people were complaining the first hit bounced off?
Really?
People literally turned to the executioner and said 'ow'?
Anyhow, thats the point of a coup de grace, it isn't an instant kill - there's a save involved. Kinda like the first axe hit not immediately killing - they made their save.
Its all there, its all RAW.
Why do you think the guillotine was invented? It was meant to give a clean, humane execution - because executioners could take several swings of the axe before finally killing the person being executed, leading to the execution in question being extraordinarily messy, bloody, and horrible.Yeah because heaps of people were complaining the first hit bounced off?
Really?
People literally turned to the executioner and said 'ow'?
Uh, yes.
Being hung could take more then a minute to fully kill someone. Execution from sword or axe could take several blows before the head fully came off, with the victim often bleeding to death slowly before it could fully be severed. In many cases, the executioner had to be bribed just to make him sharpen the axe, otherwise he'd just be more or less bludgeoning the neck with an un-sharpened, almost blunt instrument.
Anyhow, thats the point of a coup de grace, it isn't an instant kill - there's a save involved. Kinda like the first axe hit not immediately killing - they made their save.
Its all there, its all RAW.
What isn't in the RAW is "If you manage to touch your enemy, BAM headlock they die."
What isn't in the RAW is "If you manage to touch your enemy, BAM headlock they die."
And no one has said it is.
There's only so much damage the person could possibly do with a dagger, they aren't adding all their funky stuff to the roll, its a single hit (albeit as a crit) and the target gets a save.
It's far from a guaranteed kill, although "lesser mortals" (ie low level players) would almost certainly die.
No one has implied you can simply walk up and pull it off, and just about everyone (including the detractors) have given some concession that there could be a circumstance where it is feasible.
It's not simply a case of touch = death.
And even the OP's post doesn't suggest thats what happened either... they were by the looks of things, prisoners.
Edit- What I find curious is the invention that somehow, in my game, being grappled means you can be coup de grace'd (which is something I have never suggested by the way) then those SAME people complain that the encounter should have been resolved in a grapple... WHY? - well obviously those people must believe that a grapple would have made a difference, to whit, being able to be coup de grace'd.
The irony is delicious.
Anyhow, back to Cartigan...'Otherwise completely at an opponents mercy' is a good description for being held in the classic knife to throat/gun at head scenario.
Yes, except it is a completely made up scenario in D&D/PF and coincides with exactly zero rules.
Oh look, the Orc punches you in the stomach. You are doubled over and completely at his mercy. He coup-de-grace's you.
It's completely dark and you are in a bubble of silence. The enemy can see in the dark and you can't. You are completely at his mercy. He coup-de-grace's you.
Wow, this is fun!
No one is mentioning pins or grapples.
All I read was "No one is mentioning or using the rules."
What isn't in the RAW is "If you manage to touch your enemy, BAM headlock they die."
And no one has said it is.
Other than you, no, no one has.
|
I'm amazed the villain didn't just conjure rocks to fall on the rogue with how arbitrary it was.
I thought you were of the opinion that rocks falling on someone's head do no damage. :P
At any rate, I'm assuming that most adventurers, even those that suck at melee combat, take some sort of interest in combat training. I wouldn't allow the "knife to the throat" coup de grace under most circumstances.
I'm amazed the villain didn't just conjure rocks to fall on the rogue with how arbitrary it was.I thought you were of the opinion that rocks falling on someone's head do no damage. :P
At any rate, I'm assuming that most adventurers, even those that suck at melee combat, take some sort of interest in combat training. I wouldn't allow the "knife to the throat" coup de grace under most circumstances.
It's a Christmas miracle.
So, what was your last straw?
I guess I've been stupid lucky, because I've never just got up and left. I did get so fed up with a gotcha DM that played with us for a while that finally we all told him he either had to provide rewards equal to the stupid risks we were encountering (We literally called the campaign, "Oh God, What Now?") or stop leading us by the nose through his ego-stroking plotline. He hasn't really DMed much since.
I'm amazed the villain didn't just conjure rocks to fall on the rogue with how arbitrary it was.
Also, I'm pretty sure just about every form of martial training that has ever existed includes like thirty different ways to get out of a "weapon to the throat" situation. It's not exactly uncommon.
Really, one of the easier tests is this: would you have allowed a player to say "Suddenly I grab the villain and put a knife under his throat! He's completely at my mercy!" I'm going to jump to the assumption that the answer is "No."
Actually most martial arts systems deal with the knife to the throat scenario by training you to at all costs avoid getting in that situation. You are correct that there are ways for a well-trained person to escape that situation -- if they are lucky and if the person with the knife to their throat is not also well-trained. Honestly, if you are in that situation, you are in a heap of trouble and have to realize that if you resist, the most likely outcome is death. You might get lucky and survive, or your opponent might be either completely unskilled or far less skilled than you are. Relying on either luck or your opponent's incompetence is not a great path to victory and long life, though.
RAW doesn't do a good job of representing this scenario accurately, largely because the designers are probably of the opinion that most players don't find having their characters in such helpless situations is a lot of fun. If that offends your suspension of disbelief and makes the game less fun for that reason, go ahead and houserule it away. If you want your characters to be able to make unbelievable escapes from apparently hopeless situations, use RAW.
I'm amazed the villain didn't just conjure rocks to fall on the rogue with how arbitrary it was.
Also, I'm pretty sure just about every form of martial training that has ever existed includes like thirty different ways to get out of a "weapon to the throat" situation. It's not exactly uncommon.
Really, one of the easier tests is this: would you have allowed a player to say "Suddenly I grab the villain and put a knife under his throat! He's completely at my mercy!" I'm going to jump to the assumption that the answer is "No."
Actually most martial arts systems deal with the knife to the throat scenario by training you to at all costs avoid getting in that situation. You are correct that there are ways for a well-trained person to escape that situation -- if they are lucky and if the person with the knife to their throat is not also well-trained. Honestly, if you are in that situation, you are in a heap of trouble and have to realize that if you resist, the most likely outcome is death. You might get lucky and survive, or your opponent might be either completely unskilled or far less skilled than you are. Relying on either luck or your opponent's incompetence is not a great path to victory and long life, though.
RAW doesn't do a good job of representing this scenario accurately, largely because the designers are probably of the opinion that most players don't find having their characters in such helpless situations is a lot of fun. If that offends your suspension of disbelief and makes the game less fun for that reason, go ahead and houserule it away. If you want your characters to be able to make unbelievable escapes from apparently hopeless situations, use RAW.
But like my previous post shows, if we are going to arbitrarily declare random scenarios causing you to be "completely at your opponent's mercy" (you know, to meet "RAW"), then I can come up with a half-dozen scenarios that would allow for a coup-de-grace off the top of my head.
But like my previous post shows, if we are going to arbitrarily declare random scenarios causing you to be "completely at your opponent's mercy" (you know, to meet "RAW"), then I can come up with a half-dozen scenarios that would allow for a coup-de-grace off the top...I'm amazed the villain didn't just conjure rocks to fall on the rogue with how arbitrary it was.
Also, I'm pretty sure just about every form of martial training that has ever existed includes like thirty different ways to get out of a "weapon to the throat" situation. It's not exactly uncommon.
Really, one of the easier tests is this: would you have allowed a player to say "Suddenly I grab the villain and put a knife under his throat! He's completely at my mercy!" I'm going to jump to the assumption that the answer is "No."
Actually most martial arts systems deal with the knife to the throat scenario by training you to at all costs avoid getting in that situation. You are correct that there are ways for a well-trained person to escape that situation -- if they are lucky and if the person with the knife to their throat is not also well-trained. Honestly, if you are in that situation, you are in a heap of trouble and have to realize that if you resist, the most likely outcome is death. You might get lucky and survive, or your opponent might be either completely unskilled or far less skilled than you are. Relying on either luck or your opponent's incompetence is not a great path to victory and long life, though.
RAW doesn't do a good job of representing this scenario accurately, largely because the designers are probably of the opinion that most players don't find having their characters in such helpless situations is a lot of fun. If that offends your suspension of disbelief and makes the game less fun for that reason, go ahead and houserule it away. If you want your characters to be able to make unbelievable escapes from apparently hopeless situations, use RAW.
I agree. Arbitrariness sucks. If your players think you are just being arbitrary, you've lost them. That's not to say players can't be wrong and that what they perceive as arbitrariness actually has a logical explanation that their imperfect knowledge of the situation doesn't allow them to realize. However, you still have a problem with even the perception of arbitrariness.
That's not to say players can't be wrong and that what they perceive as arbitrariness actually has a logical explanation that their imperfect knowledge of the situation doesn't allow them to realize
Any and all scenarios where logical reasons can be at any point confused with arbitrariness are always arbitrariness. It's like multiplying by zero.
I played a 1st edition AD&D game with a great backstory, but the GM had a weird mix of home rules with "letter of the law" interpretation of other rules that drove me nuts...
The opening scene:
"You're all dropped on the beach, clad in rags. You have nothing but a handful of copper coins. A group of men in leather armor approaches along the beach."
Cool so far. They want to rob us and, presumably enslave us, so we try to fight... Only to discover the GM doesn't allow unarmed combat. We were helpless. One PC cast command "die", so we could take one of the villains' swords, but the GM wouldn't allow that. TPK.
We try again, this time surrendering and being robbed. The game went on. Eventually we invaded a ruin used as a home base by a (different) group of thieves.
"There's a ten foot square alcove off of the hallway"
Three of us searched it, and one lit off a flask of oil and ignited it in the area. We turned away...
"Three thieves leap out of the alcove and backstab you!"
We argued that one for a while... It seems the DM felt that "if you can just find people by looking for them, it completely nerfs the abilities of the thief class!"
After a dozen other bizarre rules interpretations, this was enough, and we walked out.
I like that three people searching a 10' square alcove can't find three other people hiding in it. Classic. :-)
That's not to say players can't be wrong and that what they perceive as arbitrariness actually has a logical explanation that their imperfect knowledge of the situation doesn't allow them to realizeAny and all scenarios where logical reasons can be at any point confused with arbitrariness are always arbitrariness. It's like multiplying by zero.
I can't go that far with you. That's tantamount to saying the player's perception of things is always right, and taken to a logical conclusion emasculates the GM and places the game at the mercy of the players. Not a style of game I really want to play.
The crux of the matter is trust of the GM. If the GM can't engender that trust and his decisions are viewed as arbitrary, the campaign has a problem. I think we agree on that.
Where we differ is that you seem to imply that that perception is always the GM's fault. Correct me if that is not what you mean. I just believe that it could equally welll be the fault of overly suspicious players. I know I've interacted with several on these boards who have had bad experiences with GMs before and seem ready to cry foul on their GMs at the slightest provocation.
Actually, whose fault it is is largely irrelevant. As stated before, if arbitrariness is perceived, there is a problem with the campaign that needs to be worked out between GM and player or players. That solution might be for the GM to change the way he does things to eliminate that perception, but I don't think that is the only solution. In fact, if the GM always gives in to his players in this way, I think it would quickly result in a campaign I wouldn't want to play in. An alternate and very good solution, IMHO, might go something like this: "Look guys, I know you don't understand right now why X occurred. There is a reason for it that I can't reveal without providing you information your characters wouldn't/shouldn't have. I just ask that you trust me for now, and someday over beers I'll explain to you what was going on behind the curtains."
We argued that one for a while... It seems the DM felt that "if you can just find people by looking for them, it completely nerfs the abilities of the thief class!"
...how were you supposed to find people...?
An alternate and very good solution, IMHO, might go something like this: "Look guys, I know you don't understand right now why X occurred. There is a reason for it that I can't reveal without providing you information your characters wouldn't/shouldn't have. I just ask that you trust me for now, and someday over beers I'll explain to you what was going on behind the curtains."
That's part of my point. If that can't occur without appearing arbitrary, then it is arbitrary as far as the players are concerned - which is who matters. It may not seem arbitrary to the DM, but whether or not he thinks it is arbitrary or not is inconsequential - he's the one that made it up.
What's even worse is if/when the DM reveals the REAL reason that it happened, it now seems even more arbitrary.
...how were you supposed to find people...?
Well, the thieves "hid in shadows". Once they hide, they're apparently impervious to mundane attempts at discovery.
Our theory was that they were ninja masters, clinging to the ceiling.
If you want your characters to be able to make unbelievable escapes from apparently hopeless situations, use RAW.
Well actually under the rules for being helpless it IS covered, these guys are houseruling it away CONTRA to RAW :)
If you want your characters to be able to make unbelievable escapes from apparently hopeless situations, use RAW.Well actually under the rules for being helpless it IS covered, these guys are houseruling it away CONTRA to RAW :)
No, it isn't and we aren't. As has been defined multiple times.
We argued that one for a while... It seems the DM felt that "if you can just find people by looking for them, it completely nerfs the abilities of the thief class!"...how were you supposed to find people...?
An alternate and very good solution, IMHO, might go something like this: "Look guys, I know you don't understand right now why X occurred. There is a reason for it that I can't reveal without providing you information your characters wouldn't/shouldn't have. I just ask that you trust me for now, and someday over beers I'll explain to you what was going on behind the curtains."That's part of my point. If that can't occur without appearing arbitrary, then it is arbitrary as far as the players are concerned - which is who matters. It may not seem arbitrary to the DM, but whether or not he thinks it is arbitrary or not is inconsequential - he's the one that made it up.
What's even worse is if/when the DM reveals the REAL reason that it happened, it now seems even more arbitrary.
Just a couple of niggles. Can't quite agree that it is only the players' perception that matter. The GM has rights and responsibilities, too, and doesn't have to give in when players challenge the way he does things, and shouldn't if they are being unreasonable. In the end, though, if things can't be worked out and the DM is still viewed as arbitrary, then that person should give up his DM hat and let one of the other players see if he can do better.
Amazing how a little time walking in another's shoes behind the screen can give people a lot more perspective on what is and/or is not arbitrary or unfair. I know that's the way it works in our group, and the three of us that GM pretty much stand behind each other all the time.
No, it isn't and we aren't. As has been defined multiple times.
Not even once, let alone 'multiple times', please don't be dishonest.
RAW states 'A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy'
(Bolded for emphasis)
So it's covered - you are in a precarious position of having blade to throat, completely vulnerable to the captor. I'm not arguing HOW you got there, we are dealing with the fact that you ARE there.
If you dont like the rules and they make you feel sqeamish, feel free to houserule them away.
RAW states 'A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy'
(Bolded for emphasis)
1) Oh look, the Orc punches you in the stomach. You are doubled over and completely at his mercy. He coup-de-grace's you.
2) It's completely dark and you are in a bubble of silence. The enemy can see in the dark and you can't. You are completely at his mercy. He coup-de-grace's you.3) An opponent is holding a child captive so you can't fight back. You are completely at his mercy. He coup-de-grace's you.
4) A loud noise startles you so you don't notice the Rogue sneaking up behind you. You are completely at your opponent's mercy. He coup-de-grace's you.
5) You are attempting to swim in the lake with some armor on. Since this is a very taxing endeavor, you are completely at the mercy of the evil Merman swimming from up below you. They coup-de-grace you.
6) You are walking down a dark hall. You fail to notice the arrow slits in the wall and are completely at the mercy of the Rogue behind one. He coup-de-grace's you.
If you dont like the rules and they make you feel sqeamish, feel free to houserule them away.
Your "rules" are like a visit to the land of make-believe.