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In the course of this thread one of the developers has indicated that he will be lobbying for errata in the charge and/or Ride By Attack rules. Personally, I have found the mounted combat rules to be subject to extremely wide interpretation. In looking through the closed combat rules forum that housed the rules discussions during the playtest, I see nothing that addressed mounted combat. So, I'm attempting to collect input on where the problematic areas in the overlapping areas of Charge and Mounted Combat are, for the purpose of providing a full perspective on any errata that may be forthcoming.
There are a number of points here provided as questions. They are not intended to be answered or debated in this thread. I request that, to keep this thread focused on the problem issues in this area, that debates on what is presented below be directed to the rules discussion forum. Otherwise, the entire thread could get relocated and thus negate it's purpose.
As a starting point:
Charge:
1) The current rule requires a direct line to the closest square from which the character can attack. In the 3.5 PHB, this was clearly indicated to mean the shortest distance. Due to the 5-foot move increment, this results in what is usually 1, sometimes 2, and occasionally 3 squares that can be charged to when traveling in 2 dimensions. This number can change sometimes due to 3-dimensional movement and/or reach. Does this reflect a desirable naturalistic approach to charging, or should there be additional options? If changing destination squares, should be different based upon weapon damage type (slashing, piercing, etc?)
2) The character must have a clear path to the destination square. This is determined by drawing four parallel lines from each of the starting location corners to the destination location corners. None of these may pass through an obstacle or friend. This results in some very tight limits in situations such as three heroes standing in parallel; the middle hero is limited to charging dead straight ahead, for example. This restriction seems unnecessarily constricting.
3) Rules associated with using Acrobatics to jump over obstacles or tumble to avoid AoO are by inference and result in wide variance. This is likewise true for movement in 3 dimensions, wherein moving upwards in elevation is often at reduced movement. Explicit coverage of these elements would be nice.
4) Overrun was errata'd out of 3.5. It remains in PF. Should it still be here?
Mounted Combat:
1) What is the relationship between Ride and Handle Animal for a rider controlling his mount? A rider controls the movement of the mount. However, Handle Animal checks are required to direct a creature to attack (including as part of a charge). Is this requirement voided and/or replaced by Ride?
2) What actions can be taken in combination with a mount's movement and/or charge? Can a character make a move and/or standard action prior to a mount double moving and/or charging? How about after? Is the rider further limited to actions taken during a mount's charge?
3) If the Handle Animal check requires a move action (non-companion), when does it take place? During the charge? Before the charge? Might the animal charge but fail to attack due to the failed Handle Animal check?
Charge and Mounted Combat:
1) A mount makes the charge. A charge is movement of up to double speed, followed by an attack. A character takes the penalties and benefits of charging, but is not himself charging. This leads to several conflicts as shown below. Should there be a change in how this relationship overall is conceived.
2) A mount charges with a rider armed with a sword. They both reach the end of the charge. They both attack. A Ride check is needed for both to attack; as mentioned above, a Handle Animal check might also be needed in some interpretations. So....what all is needed?
3) Same situation as #2, but rider has a lance. The animal is charging (a double movement to the attacking square, which is adjacent to the target); the rider can only attack from 10 feet away, but cannot attack from adjacent. Does the charge end 10 feet out? Does the mount continue on to make the attack?
Ride By Attack (RBA):
This feat probably should have been rewritten when 3.5 changed the charge rules. As it stands, it is nearly useless and has been for years. In addition to what's above, several additional problem exist, mainly as a result of consistent application of the material above.
1) The rules determining where a charge is terminated often result in the continued straight movement taking the rider directly into the square of the opponent.
2) When not taking the front of the charging character into the target's square, it often results in dragging a rear corner through the target's square. (See Charge #2 above)
3) Ride By Attack involves the use of the charge. The charge is by the mount. A charge is terminated by an attack. The attack must come at the end of the attack. Thus, the RAW requires that the mount not continue, but RBA requires that the mount does continue. This is a conflict that requires some type of explanation in the RBA text.
4) It seems as though there should be some sort of synergy or better interaction between RBA and Spring Attack, when Spring Attack is possessed by the mount. The recent errata to Spring Attack makes this even more awkward, however. One suggestion might be to permit Spring Attack if the total distance is less than a single move, or to extend the Spring Attack tree to include a mounted spring attack.
Additional problem areas, observed interpretations, etc. are requested. However, I again request that debates be directed to the Rules Questions forum.
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Adding one more:
Rider's Charging Feats While Mounted:
A number of feats and or abilities gained through other resources (class abilities, spells, etc.) give characters additional abilities when they charge. When a mounted character is part of a charge, it is the mount that is charging, not the character. There are interpretation differences in whether riders received the benefit of their charging feats while mounted.
Yeah some official clarification on this would be nice. My DM has ruled that my mount can NOT attack normally as he rides by the target if RBA is being used, but he also says that if I decide to charge straight AT the target the mount can attempt an Overrun maneuver after my lance attack resolves and the mount finally moves adjacent to the target.
The way I see it, the Mount is doing the charging, but any charging feats the Rider has should also benefit the mount because the rider directs the mount. However, some feats (like Charge-through) makes more sense to have the Mount take since it's something the mount learns.
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Adding a related matter:
Are winged mounts that have two legs considers quadrapeds for the purposes of encumberance? This was a "yes" in 3.5, which seemed odd. A quick glance doesn't show a direct relationship, but pegasus' carrying capacity is shown for quadraped without distinction for movement mode.
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Based on my own group discussions and the discussions that I have read on the message boards, my interpretations of mounted charge, which come up a lot with my cavalier character, are as follows:
There are basically three options for a mounted charging character that has the feat Ride-by-Attack:
1. Charge directly at the target – If using a lance, deal double damage, however if the character is on a mount without reach (such as a horse) the mount does not get an attack since it cannot reach the target and the character must stop at the nearest square it can hit the target. If using a weapon without reach, the character may have the mount attack at the end of the charge, using the charge bonus. If dealing with a target larger than medium size, the charge can be directly at any portion of the target.
2. Ride-by-Attack – Charge in a straight line (towards, but not necessarily directly at the target, which is what Ride-by-Attack modifies), hitting the target at the nearest point, and continuing on the straight line of the charge which should be next to the target, but not over it. Because the mount is using two actions to move, or because it can’t move-attack-move, the mount does not get an attack. However, if the mount has the feat Spring Attack, it may take a single attack if directed by the character with a successful Ride 10 check (unless of course the mount never gets within reach of the target, based on its trajectory). (Hasn’t really come up yet since I can’t see burning three feats for my mount for it to get a single attack on a charge.)
3. Overrunning charge – Charge directly at the target, make the character’s attack, then attempt the overrun using the mount’s CMB, not the character’s. If successful, the mount overruns the target, with the possibility of the character using the feat Trample. Because the overrun attempt is a standard action, it does not get an attack, with the exception of the specifically stated “free” hoof attack in Trample.
These options retain the flavor of the mounted knight while keeping the RAW.
Looking for official clarification, if anything is incorrect.
