Spell Caster Power: Spells that cause gross, world changing effects don't exist. Anything with a duration of Instantaneous/Permanent simply doesn't exist.
And there goes the Evocation school of magic. Probably a couple others too.
Spells that bypass the 'normal' rules also don't work... gate, planar travel, long-range teleportation, long-duration flight, fabrication, etc simply don't exist.
That doesn't even remotely make sense on even the most mundane of scales.
Etc. What Marshall Jansen described can in no way be construed as "Dungeons & Dragons." Having a game use "D20" rules does NOT make it D&D. If you run a game so low magic that it can be confused with 14th Century THE REAL WORLD, you are playing a d20 game set in the 14th Century, not Dungeons & Dragons.
Etc. What Marshall Jansen described can in no way be construed as "Dungeons & Dragons." Having a game use "D20" rules does NOT make it D&D. If you run a game so low magic that it can be confused with 14th Century THE REAL WORLD, you are playing a d20 game set in the 14th Century, not Dungeons & Dragons.
Actually, I believe the low-magic world I described would accurately portray almost any given Conan story. There are very few magic users, those who do exist still have armies of mooks around because magic can't do everything, castles still exist, monsters still exist, magic still exists, but the only people who ever encounter it are the heroes, because everyone else stays home where it's safe. It's ok to wipe out entire schools of magic because hey, *low* magic.
No, they don't. Wish doesn't count.
Because you don't like it? Sorry, that's not an argument against it. And the same goes for Miracle, which a solar also has.
Fact: Solars cannot teleport anywhere they want.
Fact: they can. Their normal ways to do so are resource-ineffective, but if one totally needs to appear on Mount Doom, like, right now, it totally can.
Actually, I believe the low-magic world I described would accurately portray almost any given Conan story. There are very few magic users, those who do exist still have armies of mooks around because magic can't do everything, castles still exist, monsters still exist, magic still exists, but the only people who ever encounter it are the heroes, because everyone else stays home where it's safe. It's ok to wipe out entire schools of magic because hey, *low* magic.
Etc. What Marshall Jansen described can in no way be construed as "Dungeons & Dragons." Having a game use "D20" rules does NOT make it D&D. If you run a game so low magic that it can be confused with 14th Century THE REAL WORLD, you are playing a d20 game set in the 14th Century, not Dungeons & Dragons.
Then you are playing "Conan: D20" and NOT "Dungeons & Dragons/Pathfinder." D&D/Pathfinder is not low magic. Making it low magic makes it a generic d20, low magic game. People need to recognize this as a different game entirely and stop arguing and complaining about magic in D&D. What you want to play is not D&D so the whole debate is moot.
Because you don't like it? Sorry, that's not an argument against it. And the same goes for Miracle, which a solar also has.
No, they don't. Wish doesn't count.
Which are NOT teleport abilities. They are what they are. They can duplicate Teleport, but they can also duplicate every other spell on the list below them. They don't count because they don't count.
Fact: they can. Their normal ways to do so are resource-ineffective, but if one totally needs to appear on Mount Doom, like, right now, it totally can.
Fact: "Why didn't they just get the Eagles to fly them to Mount Doom?"
Etc. What Marshall Jansen described can in no way be construed as "Dungeons & Dragons." Having a game use "D20" rules does NOT make it D&D. If you run a game so low magic that it can be confused with 14th Century THE REAL WORLD, you are playing a d20 game set in the 14th Century, not Dungeons & Dragons.
And once more we see the "Your not playing how I do so your playing wrong" mind set is alive and well.
Darksun was low magic and it was very much a D&D setting. What people call low magic is much like what they call high magic. Never the same from one person or setting to the next.
You can have low magic simply by making some classes and items rare. Wizards are there but say any spell over 3rd is a lost art that must be found or researched. That is low magic.
I think of my setting as low magic, but casters are apart of it. Magic critters are there and magic items are there. These things are not common in some ways but they are there. And next to something like GH,FR or Golarion it is very low magic indeed.
Because you don't like it? Sorry, that's not an argument against it. And the same goes for Miracle, which a solar also has.
No, they don't. Wish doesn't count.Which are NOT teleport abilities. They are what they are. They can duplicate Teleport, but they can also duplicate every other spell on the list below them. They don't count because they don't count.
Fact: they can. Their normal ways to do so are resource-ineffective, but if one totally needs to appear on Mount Doom, like, right now, it totally can.Fact: "Why didn't they just get the Eagles to fly them to Mount Doom?"
Cartigan, I normally disagree with you on everything. However, this last is a MASSIVE hole in the plot.
Then you are playing "Conan: D20" and NOT "Dungeons & Dragons/Pathfinder." D&D/Pathfinder is not low magic. Making it low magic makes it a generic d20, low magic game. People need to recognize this as a different game entirely and stop arguing and complaining about magic in D&D. What you want to play is not D&D so the whole debate is moot.
Looks at his book No what I am playing is pathfinder. Low magic can be a pathfinder game just as high magic can. There is no one single way to run a game or setting.
I can use the pathfinder rule set and play low magic. By your words one single house rule of any kind at all and your no longer playing pathfinder. Which is simply not true.
Now I'm confused. I guess, perhaps, i should post some assumptions:
Baseline D&D 3.5/Pathfinder is 'Very High Magic' This is several steps away from 'Low Magic'.
The Pathfinder ruleset can be played at any number of magic levels, from 'No Magic' to 'All Magic'. It defaults to a Party of Very High Magic playing in a High Magic playground (the Party tends to have more Magic per capita than the rest of the world, but the rest of the world has plenty).
You can adjust magic in a couple of big ways... the first way is obliterate the magic economy and eliminate items. The second way is to remove spell casters but leave the artifacts. A third way is to remove the vast majority of 'gross magic', which means you have to rewrite a huge chunk of the rules to support that.
However, there's nothing wrong with using a PF/D&D chassis to play a low magic game, especially if the GM is willing to do the work, and the players are on-board with the concept. Now, arguably, you 'shouldn't' subvert D&D to play this game and instead use a system specifically designed to play pulp fiction games. But, one could also say the expense and effort of acquiring and learning a completely new system is comparable to learning the house rules applied to a PF game.
Etc. What Marshall Jansen described can in no way be construed as "Dungeons & Dragons." Having a game use "D20" rules does NOT make it D&D. If you run a game so low magic that it can be confused with 14th Century THE REAL WORLD, you are playing a d20 game set in the 14th Century, not Dungeons & Dragons.
And once more we see the "Your not playing how I do so your playing wrong" mind set is alive and well.
Darksun was low magic and it was very much a D&D setting. What people call low magic is much like what they call high magic. Never the same from one person or setting to the next.
You can have low magic simply by making some classes and items rare. Wizards are there but say any spell over 3rd is a lost art that must be found or researched. That is low magic.
I think of my setting as low magic, but casters are apart of it. Magic critters are there and magic items are there. These things are not common in some ways but they are there. And next to something like GH,FR or Golarion it is very low magic indeed.
I don't know if I would call Dark Sun low magic as much as I would call it low technology. The magic system, while somewhat different, was very much a part of the world, as were wizards and the sorcerer-kings. The technology and philosophy and enviornment were VERY different, however, which could make some people think of it as low magic, although I tend to disagree.
Which are NOT teleport abilities. They are what they are. They can duplicate Teleport, but they can also duplicate every other spell on the list below them. They don't count because they don't count.
So... an ability that lets you teleport does not count as an ability that lets you teleport, because it also lets you do other amazing things. Solid logic, here.
Fact: "Why didn't they just get the Eagles to fly them to Mount Doom?"
That is an unrelated question. Although it also requires considerable contrivances to expain away.
Okay going back to the original question and ignoring the rest of this, I'll get to that later, the question is what do you consider to be low magic.here's what I consider to be 'low' magic, given that baseline D&D is 'very high magic'.
That's more of a setting thing than anything else. Dragonlance is low magic for a number of reasons, more so with the Fifth Age variation.
Access to spells is very limited, and wizards have to seek out training for all spells, even their 'free' ones.
Agree in theory with most of the rest but I've always seen the 'free' spells as being personal research done while traveling. The sort of my master gave me these formulas to work out as I go once I've got them I'll have a new spell. You've got it set back to more of a 2nd edition standing, not a bad thing mind you just very brutal.
Second: normal humanoids have *no* magic. Orcs aren't carrying around +1 swords. Guardsmen aren't decked out in a few pieces of magical gear. In a low-magic world, though, you won't have two levels of armor and weapons, you should have a scale of weapons with 'crude' weapons being -1/-1 to hit and damage, Poor weapons being -1 to hit OR damage, Average weapons being +0/+0, Fine weapons being +1 to hit OR damage, Artisan weapons being +1/+1, and Masterwork weapons being +2/+2. Same for armors, various quality levels increase/decrease the AC, Dex Bonus, ACP, and Arcane Spell Failure.
The only problem with this is it can cause confusion, I personally came up with the old 2nd edition inspired material charts and racial crafting mods to cover this side of things. I mean obsidian just cuts so well, even if it's highly brittle.
Spell Caster Power: Spells that cause gross, world changing effects don't exist. Anything with a duration of Instantaneous/Permanent simply doesn't exist. Spells that bypass the 'normal' rules also don't work... gate, planar travel, long-range teleportation, long-duration flight, fabrication, etc simply don't exist. Crafting feats don't exist beyond Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion. Wizards must seek out new spells. Spontaneous casters must get DM approval for all spells known. Divine spells chosen per day are vetted by the god, and not necessarily granted.
I'm all for making magic rare but this seems heavily like I hate magic period. Your leaving the mage with very little in the attack category. Leaving most with the option of reducing something, hiding it in someones food and than dispelling it in their guts as their only attack method, which while fun it only works so many times. You also leave an interesting hole on where the 'legendary' items, which is now any +1 anything came from or were made.
|
Then you are playing "Conan: D20" and NOT "Dungeons & Dragons/Pathfinder." D&D/Pathfinder is not low magic. Making it low magic makes it a generic d20, low magic game. People need to recognize this as a different game entirely and stop arguing and complaining about magic in D&D. What you want to play is not D&D so the whole debate is moot.
I'm glad thatyou've informed me that there is only ONE TRUE WAY and any deviation from it, even based upon the campaign setting, is BADWRONGFUN!
I don't know if I would call Dark Sun low magic as much as I would call it low technology. The magic system, while somewhat different, was very much a part of the world, as were wizards and the sorcerer-kings. The technology and philosophy and enviornment were VERY different, however, which could make some people think of it as low magic, although I tend to disagree.
When you looked at the other setting at the time it was. Magic was rare and hidden for the most part. The templars had it, the rare cleric or druid had it but for the most part you hide your power.
I agree it's not super low magic but was far less common then your other worlds. People would burn you if they even thought you were a wizard. Magical lore was lost or so secrete it was an adventure itself to just uncover the trail to magical lore.
It really comes down to what is low magic for you. But ya compare athas to toil and yeah it scream low magic :)
And once more we see the "Your not playing how I do so your playing wrong" mind set is alive and well.
I don't think what he's saying is necessarily wrong. If you look in the CRB, it's readily apparent that PF, like D&D, is a high-magic game. That may not be what D&D started out as, but that is what it became.
Darksun was low magic and it was very much a D&D setting.
Is it a D&D setting, or is a whole new game using the D&D engine (modified, of course.) I always thought of Dark Sun as an entirely different world/game.
Darksun was low magic and it was very much a D&D setting.
And it's not D&D. Generic D&D is several times higher magic than Darksun. Darksun may be a "D&D setting" but it's not D&D.
I'm all for making magic rare but this seems heavily like I hate magic period. Your leaving the mage with very little in the attack category. Leaving most with the option of reducing something, hiding it in someones food and than dispelling it in their guts as their only attack method, which while fun it only works so many times. You also leave an interesting hole on where the 'legendary' items, which is now any +1 anything came from or were made.
Actually, the point of the limitations on gross magic is that then magic becomes subtle... charms, hold person, domination, illusions, etc are the order of the day, with the DM able to limit the amount of 'earthshattering' magic on a case-by-case basis.
As to the legendary items, the general trope is that they are god-forged, from an earlier age when magic filled the world, etc etc.
only the heroes (PCs), villians, and particularly special NPCs have PC classes. If you don't fit this category, you don't get PC class levels, so the king, the guards, etc. Every non player character who hasn't done grotesque or vile or ridiculously heroic things are built with NPC levels. Odds are a player in my games might meet 1-2 people in the campaign that they aren't going to fight that have PC levels. 98% of the NPC population is below level 5, of the remaining 2% no NPC will ever reach above level 9 without adventuring with the PCs.
Functions alot like original 2nd edition without the entire problem of we can nuke an entire army in ten minutes or less problem.
I built an arcane equivalent of the Adept called the acolyte with a different spell list.
Any way to get a copy of that and see what it looks like? Also do you call it a hedge mage?
I put no restrictions on class choice.
Personal choice really on that one. Also highly dependant on the type of party you want or setting rules.
By not having PC classes, and being only level 5, that means that the only magic gear you can find for sale is stuff that only takes level 1-2 spells to cast.
Like I said easiest way to fix a number of issues and concerns, but few even consider it a valid route.
That is an unrelated question. Although it also requires considerable contrivances to expain away.
Fact: "Why didn't they just get the Eagles to fly them to Mount Doom?"
It's entirely related. It fully and totally counters you "Why didn't they teleport the ring to Mordor?" Because the whole damn thing was a bleedin' plot device. They could've hopped on some Eagles and flown there. Who would have stopped them? No one, that's who.
Then you are playing "Conan: D20" and NOT "Dungeons & Dragons/Pathfinder." D&D/Pathfinder is not low magic. Making it low magic makes it a generic d20, low magic game. People need to recognize this as a different game entirely and stop arguing and complaining about magic in D&D. What you want to play is not D&D so the whole debate is moot.I'm glad thatyou've informed me that there is only ONE TRUE WAY and any deviation from it, even based upon the campaign setting, is BADWRONGFUN!
Your counter is a red herring used to brow beat people into accepting that "D&D can exist anyway you want!!" No, it can't. D&D is not a rule base. D20 is the rule base D&D is set on. Once you start modifying how the game is played but not the rule base, you are playing a generic D20 game that is NO LONGER D&D. Especially if you modify it to the extent of the "low-magic" players. You cannot have low magic D&D because D&D is not low magic. You CAN have a low magic d20 game.
Actually, the point of the limitations on gross magic is that then magic becomes subtle... charms, hold person, domination, illusions, etc are the order of the day, with the DM able to limit the amount of 'earthshattering' magic on a case-by-case basis.
Fair enough this just moves most of the kill it all players over to rogue, fighter, monk or other classes instead of just nuking everything. The only concern I'd have is when the schemer starts playing them age and understands the power of their fully operational charmed minion. "Here's a gift for you to personally give to the king from you." *hand over explosive runes scroll*
As to the legendary items, the general trope is that they are god-forged, from an earlier age when magic filled the world, etc etc.
Any thought to the other trope of the highly skilled smith forging weapons of great power?
Darksun was low magic and it was very much a D&D setting.And it's not D&D. Generic D&D is several times higher magic than Darksun. Darksun may be a "D&D setting" but it's not D&D.
Sorry but no, it was as much D&D AS DRAGONLANCE, GREYHAWK, FORGOTEN RELAMS, EBERRON or any of the others. Setting may and do twist and magle the rules as they see fit
It seems like there is no such thing as d&d because if you change a single rule at all or make up a god its "not d&d" d&d is a rule set, not a setting.
Darksun was low magic and it was very much a D&D setting.And it's not D&D. Generic D&D is several times higher magic than Darksun. Darksun may be a "D&D setting" but it's not D&D.
Now this is just silly. If Dark Sun isn't D&D, then neither is 3.5/Pathfinder, because they change the rules of AD&D, which also isn't D&D, since it certainly isn't the same game as OD&D.
Sigh. I'm getting off topic again. So, anyone want to do an analysis on the various 'levels' of magic on the following:
OD&D
Basic/Expert D&D
Companion/Master D&D
AD&D (pre-Unearthed Arcana)
AD&D (post-Unearthed Arcana)
AD&D 2nd Edition
3.0 D&D
3.5 D&D
Pathfinder
4.0 D&D
D&D Essentials
As well as the following campaign worlds:
Greyhawk/Oerth
Dragonlance/Krynn
Oriental Adventures/Kara-Tur
SpellJammer
Al-Qadim/Zakhara
Ravenloft/Demi-plane of Dread
Dark Sun/Athas (Pre-4.0)
Dark Sun/Athas (Post-4.0)
Forgotten Realms/Faerun (Pre 4.0)
Forgotten Realms/Faerun (Post 4.0)
PlaneScape
Golarion
In addition to what the default assumed magic level of each of these is, I'm very curious as to which of these rulesets and campaign worlds are D&D and which aren't.
Pathfinder isn't D&D for multiple reasons but that's neither here nor there.
|
Any way to get a copy of that and see what it looks like? Also do you call it a hedge mage?
I built an arcane equivalent of the Adept called the acolyte with a different spell list.
Nope the Acolyte, I'll post it when I get home and can look at my book. It's very similar, same spell progression different spell list with an ability every couple of levels that lets them pick a spell from the full Sorc/Wiz spell list, and arcane bond at first level. And you're forgetting something, as far as most NPCs know Acolytes/Adepts are the only type of casters, so they are called wizards/clerics etc. So no, I don't use the term hedge wizard, if I ran a high magic campaign maybe they would be, but since I run low magic games, they're just wizards, and a level 6 acolyte who can cast level 2 spells IS considered a very powerful wizard.
oh one of the rules I forgot
|
|
Your counter is a red herring used to brow beat people into accepting that "D&D can exist anyway you want!!" No, it can't. D&D is not a rule base. D20 is the rule base D&D is set on. Once you start modifying how the game is played but not the rule base, you are playing a generic D20 game that is NO LONGER D&D. Especially if you modify it to the extent of the "low-magic" players. You cannot have low magic D&D because D&D is not low magic. You CAN have a low magic d20 game.Then you are playing "Conan: D20" and NOT "Dungeons & Dragons/Pathfinder." D&D/Pathfinder is not low magic. Making it low magic makes it a generic d20, low magic game. People need to recognize this as a different game entirely and stop arguing and complaining about magic in D&D. What you want to play is not D&D so the whole debate is moot.I'm glad thatyou've informed me that there is only ONE TRUE WAY and any deviation from it, even based upon the campaign setting, is BADWRONGFUN!
Um by that logic as another poster said anything d20 including DnD isn't DnD because even DnD d20 3.0 had different assumptions of magic availability than ODnD. So which DnD ruleset is DnD and which isn't, because each one has different assumptions on the availability of magic items?
Um by that logic as another poster said anything d20 including DnD isn't DnD because even DnD d20 3.0 had different assumptions of magic availability than ODnD. So which DnD ruleset is DnD and which isn't, because each one has different assumptions on the availability of magic items?Your counter is a red herring used to brow beat people into accepting that "D&D can exist anyway you want!!" No, it can't. D&D is not a rule base. D20 is the rule base D&D is set on. Once you start modifying how the game is played but not the rule base, you are playing a generic D20 game that is NO LONGER D&D. Especially if you modify it to the extent of the "low-magic" players. You cannot have low magic D&D because D&D is not low magic. You CAN have a low magic d20 game.Then you are playing "Conan: D20" and NOT "Dungeons & Dragons/Pathfinder." D&D/Pathfinder is not low magic. Making it low magic makes it a generic d20, low magic game. People need to recognize this as a different game entirely and stop arguing and complaining about magic in D&D. What you want to play is not D&D so the whole debate is moot.I'm glad thatyou've informed me that there is only ONE TRUE WAY and any deviation from it, even based upon the campaign setting, is BADWRONGFUN!
Each D&D ruleset is D&D. Your argument is also a red herring. AD&D is AD&D, 3.x is 3.x D&D. 4e D&D is 4e D&D. AD&D != 3.x != 4e
Dark Sun is Dark Sun. Greyhawk is Greyhawk. Eberron is Eberron. Pathfinder is Pathfinder. Forgotten Realms is Forgotten Realms. Low magic D&D is low magic d20 game that is not D&D.
Umm so you can not play d&d because playing it makes it not d&d ? Your logic hurts my head.
So, anyone want to do an analysis on the various 'levels' of magic on the following:
OD&D
Basic/Expert D&D
Companion/Master D&D
AD&D (pre-Unearthed Arcana)
AD&D (post-Unearthed Arcana)
AD&D 2nd Edition
3.0 D&D
3.5 D&D
Pathfinder
4.0 D&D
D&D Essentials
Setting based is really what it comes down for all of these, for anything pre 3rd edition. After 3rd they all tend towards high magic as the basic rules include wealth by level charts specifically to give players magic items at character creation.
As well as the following campaign worlds:
I know to much some days.
Greyhawk/Oerth: Monthy hall, Super high magic)
Dragonlance/Krynn: Low Magic, no shops, magic items are rare, and original rules capped character levels out before the gods would kick you out of the realm.
Oriental Adventures/Kara-Tur: Never dealt with.
SpellJammer: High magic, spell jammer helms are major magic items that are bought and sold.
Al-Qadim/Zakhara: Never played.
Ravenloft/Demi-plane of Dread: Low Magic, everything in this settings is extremely controlled.
Dark Sun/Athas (Pre-4.0): Low Magic, because most of the setting is ruled by the few guys who've gotten to 12th level or so.
Dark Sun/Athas (Post-4.0): Haven't looked at.
Forgotten Realms/Faerun (Pre 4.0): High Magic, see Arorua's catalog or any of the NPC's for this setting.
Forgotten Realms/Faerun (Post 4.0): Haven't looked at.
PlaneScape: High Magic, your plane hopping for fun and profit.
Golarion: Haven't looked at it.
|
|
Um by that logic as another poster said anything d20 including DnD isn't DnD because even DnD d20 3.0 had different assumptions of magic availability than ODnD. So which DnD ruleset is DnD and which isn't, because each one has different assumptions on the availability of magic items?Your counter is a red herring used to brow beat people into accepting that "D&D can exist anyway you want!!" No, it can't. D&D is not a rule base. D20 is the rule base D&D is set on. Once you start modifying how the game is played but not the rule base, you are playing a generic D20 game that is NO LONGER D&D. Especially if you modify it to the extent of the "low-magic" players. You cannot have low magic D&D because D&D is not low magic. You CAN have a low magic d20 game.Then you are playing "Conan: D20" and NOT "Dungeons & Dragons/Pathfinder." D&D/Pathfinder is not low magic. Making it low magic makes it a generic d20, low magic game. People need to recognize this as a different game entirely and stop arguing and complaining about magic in D&D. What you want to play is not D&D so the whole debate is moot.I'm glad thatyou've informed me that there is only ONE TRUE WAY and any deviation from it, even based upon the campaign setting, is BADWRONGFUN!Each D&D ruleset is D&D. Your argument is also a red herring. AD&D is AD&D, 3.x is 3.x D&D. 4e D&D is 4e D&D. AD&D != 3.x != 4e
Dark Sun is Dark Sun. Greyhawk is Greyhawk. Eberron is Eberron. Pathfinder is Pathfinder. Forgotten Realms is Forgotten Realms. Low magic D&D is low magic d20 game that is not D&D.
So if I play 1st ed DnD then I'm playing DnD, but if I play 3.x using 1st ed assumptions of magic items availability then I'm playing Generic d20 game that isn't DnD, and vice versa if I play 3.5 DnD then I'm playing DnD but if I use 3rd eds magic item availability assumptions while playing using the 1st ed ruleset then I'm playing generic 1st ed game that isn't DnD. I'm sorry, your argument doesn't make any sense to me, and I'm not saying that in a conceited way, I mean I'm litteraly lost because what I just stated is what I take from the way you frame your argument. And a red herring is only such if it's intentional, asking a question to try and understand someone isn't using a red herring.
You didn't ask a question. You made a statement.
If you are claiming "I am playing D&D" but tossing out all rules of the D&D system you are playing you are playing a game using the play rules that the D&D system is based on but you are NOT playing D&D. Rolling a d20 and playing a Wizard does not mean you are playing D&D.
If I use a set of playing cards to play Solitaire, am I playing solo Poker? If I play Rummy, am I playing MMO Solitaire? Maybe I'm playing "Confusing Tarot."
Greyhawk/Oerth: Monthy hall, Super high magic)
Dragonlance/Krynn: Low Magic, no shops, magic items are rare, and original rules capped character levels out before the gods would kick you out of the realm.
Oriental Adventures/Kara-Tur: Never dealt with.
SpellJammer: High magic, spell jammer helms are major magic items that are bought and sold.
Al-Qadim/Zakhara: Never played.
Ravenloft/Demi-plane of Dread: Low Magic, everything in this settings is extremely controlled.
Dark Sun/Athas (Pre-4.0): Low Magic, because most of the setting is ruled by the few guys who've gotten to 12th level or so.
Dark Sun/Athas (Post-4.0): Haven't looked at.
Forgotten Realms/Faerun (Pre 4.0): High Magic, see Arorua's catalog or any of the NPC's for this setting.
Forgotten Realms/Faerun (Post 4.0): Haven't looked at.
PlaneScape: High Magic, your plane hopping for fun and profit.
Golarion: Haven't looked at it.
Where does Mystra fit into all of this? As for Golarion, it's high magic.
On Topic - come to think of it, not all PF APs are created equal, Kingmaker is quite low magic. Basically, you're out in the sticks far from civilization. Going magic item shopping isn't really practical. That's a really good way of limiting magic items.
Cartigan, you are saying no one in history has ever played d&d. As every game I know of and every GM I have ever heard of uses house rules of some type somewhere. Which to you means they are not playing d&d
Cartigan, you are saying no one in history has ever played d&d. As every game I know of and every GM I have ever heard of uses house rules of some type somewhere. Which to you means they are not playing d&d
ob·tuse
1.
not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
2.
not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
3.
(of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.
4.
indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.
Cartigan, you are saying no one in history has ever played d&d. As every game I know of and every GM I have ever heard of uses house rules of some type somewhere. Which to you means they are not playing d&d
Did you guys run out of red herrings and have to start digging out the strawmen?
|
|
You didn't ask a question. You made a statement.
If you are claiming "I am playing D&D" but tossing out all rules of the D&D system you are playing you are playing a game using the play rules that the D&D system is based on but you are NOT playing D&D. Rolling a d20 and playing a Wizard does not mean you are playing D&D.
Look twice I made a statement declaring how I interpreted what you say then followed it up with a question. You're response was that I'm using a red herring. No I told you what I took from your argument and asked a follow up question so that you would clarify.
If I use a set of playing cards to play Solitaire, am I playing solo Poker? If I play Rummy, am I playing MMO Solitaire? Maybe I'm playing "Confusing Tarot."
Um now you're just overstating. You're comparing different rulesets to alterations of rulesets.
If you're using GURPS to play a fantasy roleplaying game then no you aren't playing dnd that's the equivalent to what you say here.
If I use a set of playing cards to play Solitaire, am I playing solo Poker?
But according to you, if you play poker with Jokers wild THEN YOU'RE NOT PLAYING POKER!!1!ZOMG!!
Um now you're just overstating. You're comparing different rulesets to alterations of rulesets.
Tell me how "Limit Wizards to level 3 spells," "Wizards can't learn new spells," "remove multiple types of spells," "remove magic items," "remove magical beasts [and inherently abberations]" is any more like D&D than Solitaire is like Poker? Or any more like D&D than Poker is like Rummy?
I don't know if I would call Dark Sun low magic as much as I would call it low technology. The magic system, while somewhat different, was very much a part of the world, as were wizards and the sorcerer-kings. The technology and philosophy and enviornment were VERY different, however, which could make some people think of it as low magic, although I tend to disagree.
When you looked at the other setting at the time it was. Magic was rare and hidden for the most part. The templars had it, the rare cleric or druid had it but for the most part you hide your power.
I agree it's not super low magic but was far less common then your other worlds. People would burn you if they even thought you were a wizard. Magical lore was lost or so secrete it was an adventure itself to just uncover the trail to magical lore.
It really comes down to what is low magic for you. But ya compare athas to toil and yeah it scream low magic :)
Hrm..Hidden magic vs. low magic. Hmm...
Where does Mystra fit into all of this? As for Golarion, it's high magic.
Based on the novels I've read, keeping in mind I've never found any setting books for it over the years. High magic in general with a heavy question on where you are and who you are. Entire countries have a massive number of wizards available to crank out items on a whim. If playing during the Blackmoor age expect lightsabers, railguns and other such things.
On Topic - come to think of it, not all PF APs are created equal, Kingmaker is quite low magic. Basically, you're out in the sticks far from civilization. Going magic item shopping isn't really practical. That's a really good way of limiting magic items.
It is but it's not really Low Magic it's just being in the sticks with your broken down Ferrari and no spare parts.
Darksun was low magic and it was very much a D&D setting.And it's not D&D. Generic D&D is several times higher magic than Darksun. Darksun may be a "D&D setting" but it's not D&D.
No, it's D&D. The settings are part of the game, although you are free to make your own.
Hrm..Hidden magic vs. low magic. Hmm...
sometimes it can be the same thing, what makes high magic, high magic? Is it magic is ever present or magic is common or something else?
If you take away the magical presence is it still high magic?
On Topic - come to think of it, not all PF APs are created equal, Kingmaker is quite low magic. Basically, you're out in the sticks far from civilization. Going magic item shopping isn't really practical. That's a really good way of limiting magic items.It is but it's not really Low Magic it's just being in the sticks with your broken down Ferrari and no spare parts.
In comparison to Second Darkness (careful, you'll slip on of those Rings of Protection +1), the point stands. My 5th level Ranger has a +1 magic bow (STR +2) and a suit of +1 Studded Leather. That's it, that's all I've got. :)
I call it low magic, dang it.
Note: not complaining, Kingmaker is a fabulous AP
Did you guys run out of red herrings and have to start digging out the strawmen?
Cartigan, you are saying no one in history has ever played d&d. As every game I know of and every GM I have ever heard of uses house rules of some type somewhere. Which to you means they are not playing d&d
]
No dude. Your claiming only 1 thing is d&d and that one thing is the only thing that is ever d&d, but then you claim setting made for d&d are not d&d because they do not fit into your idea of what d&d is.
Its not a red herring and its not a strawman your idea of d&d is not the one and only one. Hell d&d disagrees with you.
What is d&d? Just what is it as at this point I have no idea what you think it is.
I'm just going to say this: I'm ignoring everything seekerofshadowlight says on this matter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I cannot define Low-Magic by itself as I see it as being composed of multiple genre's for lack of a better method rather than writing a text book I will try to use illustrations (when possible) of what i mean in books, film, etc
No-Lowest humanoid possessed magic, No-Low fantasy.
No fantastical creatures including the humanoid races, undead, fey, demons, etc. to be found. Minor spells are possible but may require something exceptional to make them occur (a human sacrifice to cast true strike)and generally would require a feat being taken to "know' how to do that spell. This genre will likely only see non-caster versions of classes. No cleric, druid, sorc, wizard, summoner, oracle, witch. Classes with a lot of spell-like or supernatural abilites, and "half casters" (inqusistor, monk, alchemist, bard) are probably going to need to be heavily modified for the genre.
Low humanoid possessed magic, Medium fantasy.
Modern Zombie Movies. Friday the 13th part 7: New Blood
Formalized Magical Training is not usually available: people may be touched by the gods or have some "psychic" powers (sorcerers, oracles)but barely make up a small fraction of one percent of the population. Generally limited to one or two "tricks" they can perform. Similar to the Midnight OGL settings rules for casters. This genre will likely only see non-caster versions of classes. Almost no cleric, druid, sorc, wizard, summoner, oracle, witch. Classes with a lot of spell-like or supernatural abilites, and "half casters" (inqusistor, monk, alchemist, bard) are probably going to need to be heavily modified for the genre. But it might be possible for the warrior who dedicates himself to "opening his third eye" or sells his soul to a demon to learn a magic spell or two>
The first book of "A Game of Thrones". The dead walk, somewhere in the world but not near here. A single person in two continents was capable of "Animate Dead". There are no magic weapons or spells to defend against the walking dead just a huge wall of ice and some guys. For those who are bringing up the critique in this thread about DR in these types of games: you do know there are feats for double digit fighters that allow them to bypass DR? If you are a capatian of the black and concerned about those threats that are hard to harm you may develop strategies or techniques to combat them on the other hand if you are busy trying to find new and inventive ways to kill your fellow humanoids you may not and will likely have a bad time when fighting something that shrugs off most of your damage dealt. Granted for most people the latter is where they live and breathe so they arent as concerend with fighting monsters with DR.
Low humanoid possessed magic, High Fantasy
Some of these have been covered: Lovecraft, Moorcock, REH,
I did play in a game in this type setting with the concept that planar rifts somtimes led things to the world and some of them end up being stranded on this world as the the basis for all non-animal, non-human things on the planet. Where a modified Monk class was the equivilent of SWAT, to repel planar invaders: the saving throws and ki abilites (loosing dimension door and tounges and such) represented training in fighting other-worldly menaces effectively.
Low magic items but almost no restrictions on spell casting, High Fantasy.
This type of game offers the most breadth of class availibility. In this type of genre: magic is tied to the animus of the thing generating it. To make an item magical would require some 1st edition DnD intelligent item creation rules: The creator must sacrifice himself to power the item or be sacrificed to create the item. Any magic items will be intelligent and have ego scores, and agendas and liekly not share a "partner, horse, meat to do my bidding, sucker" with other magic items. Sure the wizard can drop delayed blast fireballs and the cleric can true ressurection folks long dead but wishing or miracling to have a magic sword would likely turn them into one.
Post-Magipocalypse
In certain ways the movie the Book of Eli's take on religion fits what I am talking about here.
Magic (divine/arcane/other/all of the above)created a level of destuction that has "pushed the reset button on the planet". Magic of the offending type(s) are outlawed, hated, reviled, and likely secretly sought out/practiced to give a group or faction the upperhand. Magic use is secretive and magic items are hidden for fear of being strung up in ones sleep.
If a type of magic is not forbidden this may not lead to persecution of magic items and could be considered a standard magic game.
I'm just going to say this: I'm ignoring everything seekerofshadowlight says on this matter.
Its ok man I understand you can't explain what d&d is to you. totally understand as your claiming d&d settings are not in fact d&d. I have been kinda ignoring your illogical claims for a while now as you keep claiming things not d&d even d&d
I just thought I would ask as what your saying isn't making alot of sense is all.
Low magic items but almost no restrictions on spell casting, High Fantasy.
and
Post-Magipocalypse
I think your missing a few classifications but that's ok. Nice breakdown all in all. You can have setting where these are mixed.
Say magic items are rare not because they are intelligent but because crafting them is hard. Needing rare items and harnessing power in rituals that is both time consuming and dangerous.
This can also be combined with your Post-Magipocalypse, where magic is heavily controlled or rare after some kind of magical apocalypse.
Ya know people might heavily regulate and control the teaching of magic for a reason after all.
Low magic items but almost no restrictions on spell casting, High Fantasy.
and
Post-Magipocalypse
I think your missing a few classifications but that's ok. Nice breakdown all in all. You can have setting where these are mixed.
Say magic items are rare not because they are intelligent but because crafting them is hard. Needing rare items and harnessing power in rituals that is both time consuming and dangerous.
This can also be combined with your Post-Magipocalypse, where magic is heavily controlled or rare after some kind of magical apocalypse.
Ya know people might heavily regulate and control the teaching of magic for a reason after all.
I would agree that I most likely left out some potential combinations or variations. And i welcome people adding tothe (rough) list i threw up there. Just trying to get back to the original question. i would love to see what other permutations folks come up with for instance a technology axis added to the magic/ fantasy ones we heve been using so far (Dark Tower). Or a stone age, low magic, high fantasy: think fighting a demon with a mace is bad try using a stone axe
My homebrew is kinda like that in some ways. Early bronze age so limited in weapons and armor. You do see many bronze weapons as well as some stone and "warclubs" as often as you do a good iron blade.So you get things like hunting magical beats with stone and bronze spears. Was kinda fun watching a group fight a werewolf with nothing that could bypass it's DR. {First time I ever saw anyone chock a werewolf out}