The rest of the party hates the game and the wizard is either the DMNPC or hated by the group because he can just solve every problem for them, rendering them utterly useless.The prof has a point here: Low Magic with unchecked spellcaster classes leads to one logical conclusion: wizards rule the world or can only be stopped by another wizard...
Personally however, I do think that there is a possibility to run such a game and have fun with it.
As for The DM of the Ring, the DM's over the top, the players are horrible; not the best reference RPG game ever... nor is The Lord of the Ring for that matter; its a novel, and not one that translates easily in a RPG either.
That's correct. While Lord of the Rings is a great story and movie that dynamic doesn't work well in an RPG. Powerful PCs with virtually useless ones just isn't fun even though they make a great story.
Well too avoid thread jacking I won't go too long about LotR/DotR but my point was that the adventure is great read but it doesn't do well in a group game were most PCs want to be part of a working group that includes members trying to be of a fairly close power level. There might be other times/events in the setting of Middle Earth that work better for this then the main plot but those just don't go straight into a game. Since they don't go right into a game the fact that they are a type of low magic is neither here nor there.
As for the low magic being good or bad and it's effects on the game world the question is flawed. You could even have a low magic system that has easier to learn and more powerful magic but it is uncommon because of people ganging up on casters and destroying magic items. That would be a very different 'low magic' then a setting with millions and millions of casters but no one can cast anything over 3rd level, with 2nd level casting being uncommon.
Think Lord of the Ring. Very few wizards and in group with a wizard that wizard is Gandalf. Still a low magic game and the Wizard is powerful but the game is still low magic. I just don't think playing frodo would be fun.The Lord of the Rings was only low-magic because the author was telling a story about low-magic characters. Which is fine for a novel. But in a collaborative story-telling game, you can't offer Gandalf as a PC option and assume that only one player will play Gandalf. Depending upon playstyle, your players may choose to have only one wizard who stands in the back, conserving his spells and looking myserious, but nothing in a world that allows Gandalf as a PC option requires the PCs to build a low-magic party.
All the high magic was in the other stories. In the first and second ages, anyone who was anyone had a magic weapon and could kill your face off. Those magic weapons Frodo and Gandalf found? From earlier ages. And Gandalf and the other wizards were from a race of demigods. Yeah, totally low magic there.
D&D is second age LotR. All important characters are super buff, have magic weapons, and are probably descended from the the crazy powerful weapons.
That's correct. While Lord of the Rings is a great story and movie that dynamic doesn't work well in an RPG. Powerful PCs with virtually useless ones just isn't fun even though they make a great story.
Sure, you could look at it that way. But why would you when you can look at it this way:
Lord of the Rings is a great story and movie; that dynamic could work well in an RPG. Powerful PCs with virtually useless NPCs can be fun and can make a great story.
That's correct. While Lord of the Rings is a great story and movie that dynamic doesn't work well in an RPG. Powerful PCs with virtually useless ones just isn't fun even though they make a great story.Sure, you could look at it that way. But why would you when you can look at it this way:
Lord of the Rings is a great story and movie; that dynamic could work well in an RPG. Powerful PCs with virtually useless NPCs can be fun and can make a great story.
Because some of us disagree that it could ever be fun. And because it can make a great story in a non-interactive medium.
My idea of fun is not sitting down and watching the "powerful" PC handle everything on their own. I don't think anyone's idea of fun is that, really. And just about everyone who advocates this are inevitably the ones that call themselves as being the wizard.
Because some of us disagree that it could ever be fun. And because it can make a great story in a non-interactive medium.
My idea of fun is not sitting down and watching the "powerful" PC handle everything on their own. I don't think anyone's idea of fun is that, really. And just about everyone who advocates this are inevitably the ones that call themselves as being the wizard.
I think what Anthony Valente meant was that the PCs would be the powerful ones (Legolas, Aragron, Gimly and Gandalf) while Frodo and cie would be the NPCs...
But your point is still valid; its not fun to watch your fellow PCs handle everything by their own. Its like "warming-up the bench" at baseball or soccer...
That being said, having one or two players "handling everything on their own" is a problem that I've seen in "balanced games" as well, and I've seen "unbalanced games" where all players were equally put to contribution.
'findel
Because some of us disagree that it could ever be fun. And because it can make a great story in a non-interactive medium.
My idea of fun is not sitting down and watching the "powerful" PC handle everything on their own. I don't think anyone's idea of fun is that, really. And just about everyone who advocates this are inevitably the ones that call themselves as being the wizard.
I think what Anthony Valente meant was that the PCs would be the powerful ones (Legolas, Aragron, Gimly and Gandalf) while Frodo and cie would be the NPCs...
But your point is still valid; its not fun to watch your fellow PCs handle everything by their own. Its like "warming-up the bench" at baseball or soccer...
That being said, having one or two players "handling everything on their own" is a problem that I've seen in "balanced games" as well, and I've seen "unbalanced games" where all players were equally put to contribution.
'findel
Yes, exactly.
Of course if there is a large difference in power amongst the PCs, it's a problem. I'm just not seeing that difference evident if LoTR is a benchmark for comparison… Legolas, Aragorn, Gimly, Boromir, Gandalf, etc. are the PCs and the hobbits are the NPCs). Also, the general assumption is that this story would be low-level if translated into D&D and I don't really see a power issue amongst those characters if it's resolved within the 1st 10 levels of D&D/PF.
I've done more than a few sessions where there's only one or maybe two pcs, and any players that happen by play the henchmen and other minions of that character. I gather that Gygax did that a fair bit also with higher level characters. So your party might consist of one 10th-12th level fighter, a few 5th or 6th level henchmen, and perhaps a small warband of 1st level minions and other hangers-on. In arrangements like that though, the players rotate roles a lot, playing each other's henchmen or minions while the 'main' is doing his thing. Being a grog sometimes is actually quite fun, as long as its an occasional thing and you can play your hero, with his own grogs (played by a combination of the GM and whatever other players showed up for the fun) every now and then.
That's a good point. I don't think it translates well to 3.5/PF though. Back then, the way the game was set up, low level threats [i]could/i] still cause problems for higher level PCs, and at the same time not be too overwhelming for the lower level ones.
LotR being a level 3-5 adventure depends on how you scale the monsters. If you put the Balrog (a minor god) as a CR 7 Fire Elemental (which makes no sense at all, but ok),
This makes every bit of sense, because his abilities is that of a CR 7 Fire Elemental. He's, uh, big and tough. And on fire. Falling is an unescapable hazard to him.
Therefore, Middle-Earth's fallen angels are only about as dangerous as Huge fire elementals.
then yes you've set the power level. You can certainly say the Nazgul are CR3 shadows, Uruk-Hai are CR 1 orcs, etc.
You certainly can't, because the Nazgul can't affect stuff while remaining uncorporeal. They have an aura of fear, though. And Uruk-Hai are only almost as big and strong as a vanilla human (they have more endurance, though), so the might be below CR 1.
However, you could also say that the Balrog is a Balor,
No, you can't. He doesn't have abilities of a balor.
all Uruk-hai have class levels,
Not more than 1-3.
and Sauron, Saruman, and Gandalf are demigods.
No you can't. They don't have abilities of demigods.
It all depends on your point of view.
No, it don't.
I'm kind of amazed at the viscerally negative reactions some are having towards "low magic".
Because "low magic" is generally a negative thing in DnD contest. At best, it means the DM has no clue what he's talking about, so the least magical classes will get the shaft and the most magical will be living gods, or something equally contrary to his supposed goal will happen. At worst, it means the GM secretly fears losing control of a game. At very worst, this meand the DM is either a TPK-happy sadist, or is so clueless, that he does not even realize why his DMing will TPK the party.
Sauron, Saruman, and Gandalf (and sometimes the Balrog) are actually all Maia, which might even be interpreted as being lesser gods instead of demigods.
No, it might not. Period. Whatever they are in Middle-Earth cosmology, they don't have godly abilties, or even high-level character abilities. Gandalf cannot even survive a high fall, unless there is water below. Saruman has, uh, high Diplomacy modifier. The Balrog is, uh, big and on fire (not a fire hot enough to produce a damaging aura, even in the movie version, though). This is all trivial by the DnDland standard.
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Because "low magic" is generally a negative thing in DnD contest. At best, it means the DM has no clue what he's talking about, so the least magical classes will get the shaft and the most magical will be living gods, or something equally contrary to his supposed goal will happen. At worst, it means the GM secretly fears losing control of a game. At very worst, this meand the DM is either a TPK-happy sadist, or is so clueless, that he does not even realize why his DMing will TPK the party.
It's funny, because I veiw the play-style of "give the players whatever they want, expecially the wizard" as ass-hattery at it's worst. Magic Mart are not only ridiculous, they're absolutely devoid of common sense. They wouldn't exist for more than a few days before being overrun by evil NPCs taking whatever they want. Opening a magical emporium, even if you had the resources, wouldn't be a good way to make a profit, it would be a good way to get yourself killed in no time flat.
This makes every bit of sense, because his abilities is that of a CR 7 Fire Elemental. He's, uh, big and tough. And on fire. Falling is an unescapable hazard to him.
Falling in an enclosed cavern when he may or may not have had real wings is an inescapable hazard. He was also grappling another demigod and the only reason he died is they both drowned.
Therefore, Middle-Earth's fallen angels are only about as dangerous as Huge fire elementals.
You certainly can't, because the Nazgul can't affect stuff while remaining uncorporeal. They have an aura of fear, though.
What? Also, what?
No you can't. They don't have abilities of demigods.
They are, literally, demigods. That is what they are in LotR lore - demigods. And what abilities do you expect them to have? They can all converse with animals, Sauroman has "Charm Person" at will. Gandalf returned from the dead. Sauron could shapeshift, and it was implied could control weather. Gandalf's powers were better concealed than the others though they seem to be fire based.
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No, it might not. Period. Whatever they are in Middle-Earth cosmology, they don't have godly abilties, or even high-level character abilities. Gandalf cannot even survive a high fall, unless there is water below. Saruman has, uh, high Diplomacy modifier. The Balrog is, uh, big and on fire (not a fire hot enough to produce a damaging aura, even in the movie version, though). This is all trivial by the DnDland standard.
Sauron, Saruman, and Gandalf (and sometimes the Balrog) are actually all Maia, which might even be interpreted as being lesser gods instead of demigods.
Arazni got killed by a lich. Odin is destined to be eaten by a wolf. Baldar died from getting a twig of mistletoe thrown at him. Aroden died of the common cold. Gods in fantasy stories rarely directly take action, and damn sure aren't invulnerable, and this includes most D&D settings as well.
Hell, if I were a god I'd completely avoid the Forgotten Realms, because the average begger lying in the gutter is generally a 70th level archmage that can beat down anything below the level of Ao.
Falling in an enclosed cavern when he may or may not have had real wings is an inescapable hazard. He was also grappling another demigod and the only reason he died is they both drowned.
Uh, no. Falling in an enclosing cavern is not even a hazard for just about any DnD outsider, because they can teleport. And at least drowning was not able to kill either of them. They fought on for quite a long time afterwards.
They are, literally, demigods. That is what they are in LotR lore - demigods.
In LotR lore they are angels. But their cosmological position in LotR lore has no bearing on determining their power level. Their abilties have.
And what abilities do you expect them to have?
Surviving things like falling from arbitrary height or being chewed by a Colossal dragon like they are nothing, outgrappling Ents, one-shotting Sauron's advanced trollthingies (Gandalf did that in the movie, at least), flying and teleporting all over the place, summoning and commanding gigantic monsters, true mind control, being able to personally destroy nigh-infinite numbers of mooks. Oh, and protecting themselves from outside mental influences. I.e., had Gandalf abilities of a high-level DnD caster, he would have resolved the plot in, like, two rounds. A little bit more if the One Ring is a way too powerful artifact, and cannot be told to f#$% off with Protection from Evil and Mindblank.
They can all converse with animals,
A low-level spell.
Sauroman has "Charm Person" at will.
More like high Diplomacy, in either case, a low-level ability.
Gandalf returned from the dead.
Not on his own power.
Sauron could shapeshift,
Not anymore, and even before that was like a version of Alter Self.
and it was implied could control weather.
Sauron's control of the forces of nature and scrying is actually the only high-level things any of them did. But, then, Sauron is a Big Bad and a weight category above other active characters. And he still generally relies on his knowledge and intelligence to do things.
Gandalf's powers were better concealed than the others
Or they were equally low-level.
Lots of stuff insisting the LOTR Balrog is really equivalent to a 7HD fire elemental, not a balor
This is a silly threadjack, as most arguments trying to give book/movie/TV/comic heroes PF/D&D stats are. However, I had to respond to this one.
FatR, you do realize that the LOTR balrog is the one and only source of inspiration for the D&D balor, don't you, or rather for the Type VI Demon from which it is descended? Over the editions it has changed and grown more powerful, in keeping with the general power inflation of the whole game system, but it is still very recognizable. The fact that Gygax and later game designers chose to give it more/different powers than the balrog exhibited in the book doesn't change the fact that it is pretty much a direct port from LOTR.
I'm kind of amazed at the viscerally negative reactions some are having towards "low magic".Because "low magic" is generally a negative thing in DnD contest. At best, it means the DM has no clue what he's talking about, so the least magical classes will get the shaft and the most magical will be living gods, or something equally contrary to his supposed goal will happen. At worst, it means the GM secretly fears losing control of a game. At very worst, this meand the DM is either a TPK-happy sadist, or is so clueless, that he does not even realize why his DMing will TPK the party.
Low magic can work if that's the story you want to play. The group has to want to play that way and the DM has work to do accommodate. Me as DM I don't do low magic games unless that's what the players ask for and it has been asked for from time to time. Usually just to try something different. I find it comes up often after some player reads some book series that gets them all pumped up for low magic setting with more historical feel.
In games like that monsters are rare and I use more NPC antagonists. The games don't tend to go much beyond level 10 either. Some have been fun others no so much but it all depends on the players buy in. That's why I don't do it unless the players ask for it.
One game a player wanted to play a ancient Greek type setting with the Greek gods where the players are Demi-gods like Hercules with boosted stats. The game would have few magic items and to acquire any would require big quests. The items would artifact like so no +1 swords. This came up after the Percy Jackson series was read by a player. Interesting concept but a lot of work on my part as DM that I don't have time for right now.
To both Ktulhu and lastknightleft.
You might like whatever. In fact, you might be and probably are justified in your preferences, seeing as Christmas Tree characters are absent from most fiction (and when they are present, they are artificers/gadged-based heroes).
This does not change in the slightest the fact, that in all versions of DnD all characters but casters need magic gear to function, and that in versions past 3.0, they generally need not only a particular amount of gear, but also exact gear they want to function at their supposed power level, and, at mid-to-high levels, to function at all, without being instantly neutralized by some common tricks. Casters have a much easier time, because even in a no-gear world they will only have reduced numbers, but will not be completely screwed whenever they encounter an invisible stalker or something.
If you adress this need by tailoring every bit of treasure to PCs needs (asking the players what they want, when necessary), or giving them evolving items, or whatever, you don't need Magic Marts. There's no indication that you do that in your posts, though. Therefore, I only can conclude, that your games fall in the above-mentioned category of "low magic" that actually incentivizes playing casters.
FatR, you do realize that the LOTR balrog is the one and only source of inspiration for the D&D balor, don't you, or rather for the Type VI Demon from which it is descended?
I know it for a fact. I also know for a fact, that even the earliest version of the Type VI demon received a massive infusion of crazy DnD s~*+, from Suggestion through Telekinesis to Symbols Of You Lose, which Balrog could not even dream about. Therefore, they can't be compared at all.
The fact that Gygax and later game designers chose to give it more/different powers than the balrog exhibited in the book doesn't change the fact that it is pretty much a direct port from LOTR.
So... having entirely different and more powerful ability set does not make a creature entirely different and more powerful? Please stop this anti-reason.
Uh, no. Falling in an enclosing cavern is not even a hazard for just about any DnD outsider, because they can teleport.
Solars can't teleport.
And at least drowning was not able to kill either of them. They fought on for quite a long time afterwards.
So your point is... what?
In LotR lore they are angels. But their cosmological position in LotR lore has no bearing on determining their power level. Their abilties have.
Most of which were never explored or expounded upon. And D&D doesn't have "demigods" as such either.
Surviving things like falling from arbitrary height
Didn't you just say they did that...?
or being chewed by a Colossal dragon like they are nothing
At what point does anyone get chewed by a dragon? The only dragon to outlive the second age was Smaug.
outgrappling Ents,
When or why would anyone grapple an Ent?
one-shotting Sauron's advanced trollthingies (Gandalf did that in the movie, at least)
A Solar couldn't 1-shot a non-advanced troll without Slay Living.
flying and teleporting all over the place
Solars can't teleport.
summoning and commanding gigantic monsters
Like trolls?
true mind control
Sauroman had Charm Person at will. And wern't those magic rings all controlled by one magic ring?
and protecting themselves from outside mental influences.
This is exceedingly arbitrary and I assume you are implying they didn't and couldn't so where was it.
I.e., had Gandalf abilities of a high-level DnD caster, he would have resolved the plot in, like, two rounds.
A little bit more if the One Ring is a way too powerful artifact, and cannot be told to f#$% off with Protection from Evil and Mindblank.
Yeah, because no magic items have arbitrary rules in relation to spells that effect them.
A low-level spell.
We are talking about an at-will ability, not a spell.
More like high Diplomacy,
More like, no. It's Charm Person.
in either case, a low-level ability.
At will?
Not anymore, and even before that was like a version of Alter Self.
Not unless werewolfs and snake-like creatures are related.
Or they were equally low-level.
Or Tolkien was intentionally vague and most of the interesting, high-power stuff happened in the second age anyway.
Solars can't teleport.
Wrong.
So your point is... what?
Your statements are based on lack of knowledge.
Most of which were never explored or expounded upon.
Their abilities are what we saw or heard about. Postulating that someone must have moar true powerz because you would like him to is not a valid argument.
At what point does anyone get chewed by a dragon?
At no point. That's the point.
When or why would anyone grapple an Ent?
At no point. That's the point.
A Solar couldn't 1-shot a non-advanced troll without Slay Living.
It could.
Solars can't teleport.
They can. Without even digging into exploits that allow every full caster get normal access to abilities of every other full caster.
Like trolls?
Much better. Trolls - DnD trolls, arguably significantly more powerful that Tolkien trolls - are only CR 5 and are literally not supposed to register as a challenge to high-level characters.
Sauroman had Charm Person at will.
He hadn't, and Charm Person isn't a true mind control.
And wern't those magic rings all controlled by one magic ring?
Doing something through a plot device, that didn't even succeeded as surprise-dominating their wearers is not doint something under your own power.
This is exceedingly arbitrary and I assume you are implying they didn't and couldn't so where was it.
Arbitrary how? There is nothing arbitrary in being able to cast a spell, that says "lol, no" to magical mental influnces.
Yeah, because no magic items have arbitrary rules in relation to spells that effect them.
Name an item that can bypass PfE and Mindblank.
We are talking about an at-will ability, not a spell.
Still a low-level spells. Being able to cast it at will does not make it less low-level.
More like, no. It's Charm Person.
More like yes.
At will?
Yes. For the benefits of others, I might note that the game designers realized that use of low-level abilities at will does not make them level appropriate long ago, during translation to 3.X.
Not unless werewolfs and snake-like creatures are related.
Everything is possible, considering his basic type. What is important, though, his shapeshifting failed to give him enough of ability boost to beat what was essentially a really big and strong dog. He couldn't say, "Screw it, I'm a dragon now, and I'm strafing you to death, b%$#%."
Wrong.
Solars can't teleport.
That's not what the d20 SRD or PFRD say.
Let's assume, for a moment, that the Balrog was a CR7 Fire Elemental that had the special power of becoming, what, an Ooze Elemental? when his fire was snuffed.
Gandalf, at level 5, shattered a huge stone bridge, successfully grappled this Fire Elemental, survived the damage from grappling, survived the fall into the water, etc etc...
Could a level 5 wizard do these things to a CR7 Fire no I meant Ooze Elemental?
And if Balrogs are CR7, why did Aragorn (Ranger 5), Gimli (Fighter 4), Legolas (Fighter 4), Boromir (Fighter 4), Merry (Fighter 2), Pippin (Fighter 1), Frodo (Rogue 1 with ridiculous WBL), and Sam (Commoner 1) feel the need to flee?
Not to mention that this CR7 fire elemental wiped out an entire nation of Dwarves pretty much single-handedly, including heroic dwarves with class levels.
The Balrog and Gandalf were evenly matched, so to make Gandalf a chump, the Balrog has to be a chump as well, but I fail to see how the Balrog can be described as a CR7 Fire Elemental... Here's what we know it did:
Now, we pretty much have to decide which of Tolkein's Balrogs we are going to use... in the Quenta Silmarillion there were many of them, and they were basically dudes. LOTR though changed them into the demonic form, and there were seven of them all told. Let's use the seven, since that's the type that was actually in Moria.
So powers, first he's a Valar, specifically a Mair, which Tolkein describes as having these powers:
Shapechange at will, Move invisibly and without form through the world. It's possible that the Balrogs had lost these abilities, though.
Change size at will... the size of the Balrog shifted from 'filling a hall' to 'filling the chamber of Mazarbul' to 'Large enough to break the mountain when cast down upon it'.
The Balrog wielded a Flaming Sword and Whip. He killed Durin, a Third-Age Hero, then killed off the rest of the Dwarves, forcing the survivors to flee. He killed off the Dwarves that came to reclaim the area. He counterspelled Gandalf's Hold Portal spell, then they got to the bridge...
where again, we had a wizard shatter a stone bridge, a fire elemental (really?) use a magical whip to entangle Gandalf, they fell, grappling and fighting until they hit a lake, the Balrog's flame was extinquished, they continued to grapple and fight, the Balrog fled and Gandalf pursued him for 8 days, they get out of the mountain and fight non-stop for 48 more hours, and then finally, after 10 days with no rest or healing, the wizard picks up the Huge Fire Elemental and throws him down a mountain, shattering the side of the mountain.
How exactly does a 5th level wizard with a staff that can cast light at will do that to a Fire Elemental? The power levels make no sense. A CR7 elemental can't kill off a huge city of militant dwarves, and a 5th level wizard can't fight for 10 days and then throw huge creatures down.
FatR, you do realize that the LOTR balrog is the one and only source of inspiration for the D&D balor, don't you, or rather for the Type VI Demon from which it is descended?I know it for a fact. I also know for a fact, that even the earliest version of the Type VI demon received a massive infusion of crazy DnD s*!#, from Suggestion through Telekinesis to Symbols Of You Lose, which Balrog could not even dream about. Therefore, they can't be compared at all.
So... having entirely different and more powerful ability set does not make a creature entirely different and more powerful? Please stop this anti-reason.
The fact that Gygax and later game designers chose to give it more/different powers than the balrog exhibited in the book doesn't change the fact that it is pretty much a direct port from LOTR.
Just two points:
1. Just because it isn't described in the book doesn't mean the creature doesn't have it. All you see of the balrog in the book is one fight scene, much of which is related second hand, after the fact. In a PF/D&D context, would you assume you knew everything there was to know about a creature's abilities based on watching one fight against one specific opponent?
2. In porting the balrog over, Gygax had to make it fit the game system, which does not at all match up well with any literary work, even those like LOTR that directly inspired a lot of game content. He gave it those powers to make it an awesome threat to D&D characters, just as the balrog was an awesome threat to the Fellowship. If he were to port over the LOTR characters, I have no doubt he would give them powers not mentioned in the book, as well. The idea is that he maintained the spirit of the balrog as a bad ass evil critter, without trying to duplicate it exactly.
Anyway, enough for me on this threadjack.
So this tread is now about how to translate Tolkien's Middle Earth into D&D? I don't think there is ONE way to do it.
But in Middle Earth, being able to fly or travel great distance at great speed is a BIG DEAL! In D&D, characters and monsters are flying and teleporting right, left and center and it doesn't make anyone raise an eyebrow. This alone makes comparison and translations difficult at best, because whatever level you'd set Gandalf, the best he could come-up with was to "waste" three precious days taming a super horse. As far as I know, this "limit" of magic was also true in the First and Second Age as well. Feanor had to steal boats to run into exile in Middle Earth, Luthien worked some "epic magic" to fly with Beren to retrieve the Silmaril etc.
If one would run a Middle Earth game and attempt to remain faithful to the script, these considerations would need to be taken, regardless of the game system.
Does the lack of flying absolutely means low-magic? Personally I don't thinks so; it a world specific particularity similar to the reduced planar traveling of Athas in 2E Dark Sun setting.
'findel
Magic Mart are not only ridiculous, they're absolutely devoid of common sense. They wouldn't exist for more than a few days before being overrun by evil NPCs taking whatever they want. Opening a magical emporium, even if you had the resources, wouldn't be a good way to make a profit, it would be a good way to get yourself killed in no time flat.
Why does magic items being for sale have to mean that there is some huge chain store of magic items with everything on rack in one place that can easily be stolen? It's a strawman. If you have unguarded stores with a level two commoner clerk then no your world doesn't make much sense. If you have a well guarded location that has a small number of low cost magic items on site, and the ability to order more items IF you prepay and/or brokers who set up those who want to sell with those who want to buy then the setting makes much more sense.
A better question is if every Tom, Dick, and Harry out in the field has magic items for any adventurer who can defeat them, why is there NOT a magic mart? Do ex-adventurers have whole rooms full of unneeded magical loot?
A better question is if every Tom, Dick, and Harry out in the field has magic items for any adventurer who can defeat them, why is there NOT a magic mart? Do ex-adventurers have whole rooms full of unneeded magical loot?
Agreed, this is the most logical conclusion in a "default" high magic setting. Large surface shops of 'anything' do not fit well in any pre-industrial worlds/settings, but numerous, small and de-centralized magic shops should logically be abundant. The fact that NPCs are often that well equipped suggests that break-in and robberies do happen.
'findel
A better question is if every Tom, Dick, and Harry out in the field has magic items for any adventurer who can defeat them, why is there NOT a magic mart? Do ex-adventurers have whole rooms full of unneeded magical loot?
Back in 1st edition, magic items were a little bit rarer, and every time you failed a save, all your crap would potentially break as well. Every time you got fireballed, scrolls and spell books could go up in flames, swords melt, potions boil.
I've still got my character sheets for the last 1st edition game I played in... and my 14th level druid has several items marked off the character sheet from a failed save. We kept everything we found for two reasons:
One, there was no need to sell it, because gold had negligible value after it got stashed since you couldn't buy magic items.
Two, it was nice to have backup gear for when you got hit by red dgragon breath and all your gear melted.
I'm still not fond of magic marts, but it is nice to be able to spend your gold, instead of looking at the giant pile of wealth and going 'I guess it's time to build my keep/stronghold/temple/tower/guild/monastery'.
could a level 5 wizard
I see gandalf more as a disguised good outsider. An astral Deva or something lesser.
Gandalf does not walk or quack like a D&D/PF wizard, IMHO.
One, there was no need to sell it, because gold had negligible value after it got stashed since you couldn't buy magic items.
That's a circular argument "there is no need to sell magic items because we can't buy magic items." But if any adventurer can get magic items, then WHY is no one selling magic items?
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That's a circular argument "there is no need to sell magic items because we can't buy magic items." But if any adventurer can get magic items, then WHY is no one selling magic items?
One, there was no need to sell it, because gold had negligible value after it got stashed since you couldn't buy magic items.
How about because adventurers aren't a common thing. That's what I hate about the gamist way we've developed economies in DnD. For every adventurer (and there wouldn't be adventurers, there'd be historical researchers, grave robbers, bandits, pirates, mercenaries, etc., but no one ever defines their career as "adventurer") there are 5000 non adventurers. Those people would buy and cherish any little item with magic power. In order for there to be magic item shops you have to assume that magic is so prevalent that even commoners commonly buy them. Now the base DnD setting does assume this kind of crap, which is IMO lame and terribly unfun to play in. And I've run games and played in games with low magic and never had the problems with TPKs etc. granted I've never had a game run for 1-20 either, so maybe at levels 15+ this is a problem, but I from levels 1-15, no I've never seen these problems with casters making other characters useless. So if it doesn't work at levels 15+ that's fine by me, because I've never been in a game or played in one that was set at those levels. In fact, the only times I've played in games that got into the mid teens, it was problematic because we were able to get whatever gear we wanted, and everyone was ridiculously stronger than the CR appropriate encounters we were facing, and it was unfun to have my character sit down in an encounter because I knew I wouldn't even be needed and watch the one PC take on a CR 2+ enemy by himself.
That's a circular argument "there is no need to sell magic items because we can't buy magic items." But if any adventurer can get magic items, then WHY is no one selling magic items?
One, there was no need to sell it, because gold had negligible value after it got stashed since you couldn't buy magic items.
In our 1st edition tables, the 'Party' was one of 2-3 adventuring groups in the world. Not just anyone could get magic items. When we did fight humanoids with magical gear... it was Drow, and so all the magic loot was useless to us as soon as it was exposed to sunlight. The vast majority of our magical gear was pulled out of hoards guarded by big nasty monsters.
If we wanted specific magic items, we'd research them and quest to get them. But mostly, we were just happy with what got rolled up on the random tables. Again, since items got vaporized pretty much every game session, you never had a huge list of things you were ready to get rid of.
Okay going back to the original question and ignoring the rest of this, I'll get to that later, the question is what do you consider to be low magic. Largest part of this is the lack of readily available magic items that most players regard as a major part of the game. Thus no +1 weapons, +1 armor, wands, staffs, belts, boots, or any of the other arcane brick a brack that most expect every session. Potions though start to play a larger role, because in both literature and other media depicting low magic puts a greater emphasis on alchemists, and other styles of hedge magic. Both of which though tend to show a far greater rarity with most getting the ability to make potions from things like Master Craftsman instead of being a cleric or mage. The potions fill the gap the lack of items normally create, but due to the problems of finding an alchemist or their lack of materials means people have to put more thought into their use nevermind the shorter duration potions have.
From items you come to classes, the biggest of which and most referenced is the lack of mages but the lesser considered issue is the lack of clerics. Mage go from being an expected part of every kingdom to being something of great renown, or fear, if the kingdom has a court mage. Clerics at the same time become something were a temple/church/ziggurat having a cleric that can cast becomes a major draw. At the same time finding a mage or cleric who can cast at anything over lvl 3 arcane/divine spells is unheard of.
Another thing that is something few GM's, that I've dealt with, ever consider is the level range of npcs in their world. My own campaign which is a low magic settings and has been something I've been running for nearly 15 years. The general level you can expect most npcs to be is 3-6 anything past that is someone bards sing of and others pay attention to. I personally think this is a major point most GM's fail to consider when people start talking about how common adventurer's are in their setting or what would be readily available in the setting itself. This also brings up a valid point to anyone paying attention to the Master Craftsman feat, but in my own setting I require anyone wanting to learn it to be trained by someone else with it, all other mechanics of the feat are the same.
The last thing that's part of a low magic settings is the fact that most monsters that require magical gear aren't going to go from rare to nearly unattainable. Most of those demons and aberrations just won't be part of the setting, instead most of the conflict in the settings is going to be between kingdoms, tribes, cults and other such groups not from just another red dragon.
Now for all of you going well this ruins the game and it's not part of the rules, I point you to the Pathfinder Dungeon Masters Guide and specifically the section on magic and the modifications you need to do for a lower magic setting. If you still wish to argue about the rules t instead of discussing the concept of a low magic setting and how to run one I'll note two things. Here's your rules lawyer sign, and the x is at the top right of your browser.
That's not what the d20 SRD or PFRD say.Wrong.
Solars can't teleport.
Wrong again. Without any changes to the suggested spell list or useful equipment, they have two ways to teleport. Maybe more, don't remember.
1. Just because it isn't described in the book doesn't mean the creature doesn't have it.
Actually, that's exactly what it means. As I said already, "It should have a never-seen ability because I feel like it" is a non-argument.
2. In porting the balrog over, Gygax had to make it fit the game system, which does not at all match up well with any literary work, even those like LOTR that directly inspired a lot of game content. He gave it those powers to make it an awesome threat to D&D characters, just as the balrog was an awesome threat to the Fellowship.
Exactly. DnD does not match well with fantasy literature not directly inspired by DnD, and one of the major reasons for this is crazy high power level, so thingies that are intended to challenge high-level DnD characters have crazy abilities, even if their source of inspirations didn't have them, and the high-level characters themselves should be crazy powerful* to overcome them. And so, a DnD balor has jack-s$*$ to do with the balrog, save for vague visual similarity. And LotR cast were low-level by DnD standards.
I have removed some posts in this thread. The topic is "define low magic" - please stick to that.
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Okay going back to the original question and ignoring the rest of this, I'll get to that later, the question is what do you consider to be low magic.
here's what I consider to be 'low' magic, given that baseline D&D is 'very high magic'.
First: no magic marts. Anything smaller than a large city has no available arcane or divine magic that the PCs don't bring with them. Large cities will have temples and Mage Towers that can provide *very* minor magical items. At most potions of level 1-2, Scrolls of level 1-3, and in very rare occasions other consumable magic items. Access to spells is very limited, and wizards have to seek out training for all spells, even their 'free' ones.
Second: normal humanoids have *no* magic. Orcs aren't carrying around +1 swords. Guardsmen aren't decked out in a few pieces of magical gear. In a low-magic world, though, you won't have two levels of armor and weapons, you should have a scale of weapons with 'crude' weapons being -1/-1 to hit and damage, Poor weapons being -1 to hit OR damage, Average weapons being +0/+0, Fine weapons being +1 to hit OR damage, Artisan weapons being +1/+1, and Masterwork weapons being +2/+2. Same for armors, various quality levels increase/decrease the AC, Dex Bonus, ACP, and Arcane Spell Failure.
Spell Caster Power: Spells that cause gross, world changing effects don't exist. Anything with a duration of Instantaneous/Permanent simply doesn't exist. Spells that bypass the 'normal' rules also don't work... gate, planar travel, long-range teleportation, long-duration flight, fabrication, etc simply don't exist. Crafting feats don't exist beyond Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion. Wizards must seek out new spells. Spontaneous casters must get DM approval for all spells known. Divine spells chosen per day are vetted by the god, and not necessarily granted.
Monsters: The vast majority of magical creatures are so rare that they are legendary. Most people don't believe in Dragons or Trolls.
etc etc... In general, anything 'magical' is subject to DM fiat as to how easily it can be acquired, or if it even exists at all.
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I have removed some posts in this thread. The topic is "define low magic" - please stick to that.
Thank you, i was getting sick of the LotR discussion, A it's been done to death, B it's off topic. By the way nice new avatar pic.
Here's how I define my low magic setting.
This makes the heroes something special, even at low levels they have abilities and powers that most people have never seen, or have only heard of in stories, by the time they are level 5 they are a match for most people in a city, but by that time they'll have a reputation and start to be known, by level 10 they are heroes, most people in their area have heard of them and if they go to some other region they may hear rumors about themselves as their reputations may have preceded them. Odds are if they decided to take over kingdoms they would have a good chance of suceeding if they play it smart, but if they just do it dumbly even level 1 mooks can still kill them eventually, it's just a matter of time and lots of slaughtered mooks. Anywho, like I said, I've never had a game get past level 15 so I don't know if it would fall apart at that point, but from levels 1-15 I have never seen a problem with full casters "taking over the game", or melee classes feeling useless. Maybe I just always play with people who "play the game wrong" but I've run a lot of games, and that has never been a problem.
Wrong again. Without any changes to the suggested spell list or useful equipment, they have two ways to teleport. Maybe more, don't remember.That's not what the d20 SRD or PFRD say.Wrong.
Solars can't teleport.
No, they don't. Wish doesn't count. Ethereal Jaunt isn't a teleport. I suppose you could plane shift to the SAME plane but an alternate dimension where you are 1 mile away. Word of Recall lets you teleport to... one place. Great. Gandalf uses Word of Recall and goes back to... the White Tower. The Balrog uses word of recall and goes back to.. Moria. Well that was productive. Fact: Solars cannot teleport anywhere they want.