If a player goes through a process of changing deities, do they lose their old weapon proficiency (assuming their class gains a proficiency with their deity) and do the automatically gain the new one?
My Theory would be that while worshiping their old deity they learned how to use the weapon of their deity. Even if the initial proficiency with the weapon was granted magically, the continued use of it over half a life time would have given them proficiency with it.
And just because you start to worship a new deity do they magically grant you proficiency with a new weapon, or are you expected to learn that weapon as part of your worship?
Sure, in theory a person could continually switch deities, but a deity has to agree to welcome you in and grant you powers, and if they get wind of you abusing their power for their own gain may would just not accept you, so i don't see this as reason to prevent players from retaining their old proficiencies.
Is there any RAW on this, or is this a DM choice kind of thing?
Pretty sure ya loose the old one and gain the new one as under ex clerics they loose all weapon proficiency but simple ones. So yeah seems they loose it.
Pretty sure ya loose the old one and gain the new one as under ex clerics they loose all weapon proficiency but simple ones. So yeah seems they loose it.
What about Inquisitors.
RAW:An inquisitor who slips into corruption or changes to a prohibited alignment loses all spells and the judgment ability. She cannot thereafter gain levels as an inquisitor until she atones.
This is just talking about borking your current deity though, not switching to a new one.
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Here is the section in question:
Ex-ClericsA cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).
I agree with Seeker, the cleric in question would loose the one weapon prof and gain a new one. Remember, you did not forget, the gods made you forget!
If your god grants you that weapon ability, then when you leave his service you loose it. That simple. They have taken away the gift they granted you. Use of their chosen weapon.
It's a gift from the god. You lose it when you abandon the god.
That said, I think the weapon proficiencies are kind of wonky anyway, and I can see the argument where, if you've been worshipping Erastil for umpteen years and using a bow and then suddenly go evil and start worshipping Asmodeus instead, you don't suddenly ditz out and forget all your umpteen years of archery.
Probably the best way to treat clerical weapon proficiency is as a Trait, where the Trait is "Trained in the ways of X god so proficient in Y weapon."
Allowing all starting characters proficiency in a weapon not on their class list as a Trait is not a bad idea across the board, come to think of it.
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If you've been worshipping Erastil for umpteen years and using a bow and then suddenly go evil and start worshipping Asmodeus instead, you don't suddenly ditz out and forget all your umpteen years of archery.
Assuming you've been using that bow for umpteen years, your correct you don't. You still have the BAB you've gained from your experience, you just don't have the instinctive or divine understanding of how to properly wield the weapon anymore- you never learnt it in the first place.
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It's a gift from the god. You lose it when you abandon the god.
That said, I think the weapon proficiencies are kind of wonky anyway, and I can see the argument where, if you've been worshipping Erastil for umpteen years and using a bow and then suddenly go evil and start worshipping Asmodeus instead, you don't suddenly ditz out and forget all your umpteen years of archery.
you do not forget your years of archery, not at least voluntarily, Erastil removes the knowledge of how to use the bow from your head. You can remember shooting the bow and everything like that, but when you go to remember exactly how to do it, to say, shoot at something, it is like remembering how you did something in a dream. (Thus the non-proficient penalty, you can remember the basics (place arrow here, pull, release) , but not how to do things like plan trajectory, etc..)
Remember, when gods are involved, and you have given yourself over to them, they have a lot of free play to mess with you if you leave.
Agreed, your god granted you that gift, you choose to forsake him and he as a god took away all he gave. Even if you used the bow for years he took that skill. He took away your base understanding of that skill, the one he granted you.
I think if you switch gods in the game you don't lose the proficiency but you don't gain the new one. It's assumed that you trained in that weapon during you religious training. Since you aren't going through that process in the game you don't get a new weapon proficiency though you are free to spend a feat.
I seem to remember this question came up before that and that's what one of devs claim but I could be wrong.
If the god shoe-horned the knowledge into your head via Hiz Divine Powerz and used the divine shoe-horn, then yeah, he could just as easily scoop it out with the divine melon baller or whatever He uses in such instances.
If, however, you learned how to use the god's divine weapon as part of your training as an acolyte in the temple, what we're basically talking about is a background trait, even if it isn't formally statted up as such.
I mean, you can have a trait which basically "I can use bow!" and explain it as temple training for Erastil (whether or not you ever took your vows) or being raised by elves (and even city elves apparently have an archery range or lots of hunting trips) or just being the child of William Tell and you learned it from dad, even if you eventually took a different career path.
I personally like it better as a secular trait than a divine blessing, since the secular trait fits more instances.
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If the god shoe-horned the knowledge into your head via Hiz Divine Powerz and used the divine shoe-horn, then yeah, he could just as easily scoop it out with the divine melon baller or whatever He uses in such instances.
If, however, you learned how to use the god's divine weapon as part of your training as an acolyte in the temple, what we're basically talking about is a background trait, even if it isn't formally statted up as such.
I mean, you can have a trait which basically "I can use bow!" and explain it as temple training for Erastil (whether or not you ever took your vows) or being raised by elves (and even city elves apparently have an archery range or lots of hunting trips) or just being the child of William Tell and you learned it from dad, even if you eventually took a different career path.
I personally like it better as a secular trait than a divine blessing, since the secular trait fits more instances.
Or you could just use the feat "Martial Weapon Proficiency" which allows you to be proficient with one weapon.
even if it is part of training, it is not beyond a gods power to strip you of it. That is his weapon, you learned it to serve and represent him. Not another god.
It is not outside of the realm to see gods seeing this training as also part of the gifts they grant you and strip use of the sacred weapon from you. That skill you horned to serve him. He will not allow you to take it with you,stripping you of your training and time put into a skill in his name.
You no longer deserve that skill in his eyes and he will take it and the time you put into it as his due.
You no longer deserve that skill in his eyes and he will take it and the time you put into it as his due.
Maybe your new deity would prevent that :p
I'm thinking it's like a background trait and you don't get the new weapon unless you go through some tedious process
You no longer deserve that skill in his eyes and he will take it and the time you put into it as his due.
Maybe your new deity would prevent that :p
No, they have their own weapon. Why would they want you using a weapon of another god?
No, they have their own weapon. Why would they want you using a weapon of another god?You no longer deserve that skill in his eyes and he will take it and the time you put into it as his due.
Maybe your new deity would prevent that :p
Its just a favoured weapon, not a required. Im sure an cleric of Erastri can wheild a whip or a flail or whatever else w/o it bothering erastril.
yes, but erastril grants him HIS chosen weapon. So if that cleric no longer serves him he takes back that knowledge and that skill. That was granted by Erastril to serve Erastril not some other god.
The new god in turn does not want your old god's gifts , Gods do not share clerics, why would they ever allow you to retain a gift from another god? Why would they allow you to retain a sliver of that connection?
yes, but erastril grants him HIS chosen weapon. So if that cleric no longer serves him he takes back that knowledge and that skill. That was granted by Erastril to serve Erastril not some other god.
The new god in turn does not want your old god's gifts , Gods do not share clerics, why would they ever allow you to retain a gift from another god? Why would they allow you to retain a sliver of that connection?
For the cleric RAW sate you lose it, so that's a no brainier. Inquisitor doesn't state anything to that extent so while i agree with your views if it was a cleric, I'm still going to have to disagree with it on an inquisitor.
it also leaves out domains, I am calling it a mistake. A former inquisitor would not keep those either. Sometimes they simply forget things, that class gains the weapon the very same way the cleric does.
So no he would not keep it.
Or you could just use the feat "Martial Weapon Proficiency" which allows you to be proficient with one weapon.
True enough, though since I think no one ever takes that feat, I'm wondering if it should maybe be a trait instead, and if it wouldn't be better to give it to all characters at starting level.
It depends on how magical you want your world to be, honestly. Having someone take vows to Erastil and suddenly miraculously being able to shoot a bow like nobody's business, even though they've never touched one before? Yeah, that's one flavor. Another is training in the bow as a devotion to Erastil and only after getting good enough with the god's favored weapon that you earn his respect do you get to join the priesthood.
I personally like the second better, and mechanics-wise, it's neater as a house rule to grant all 1st level characters a free weapon proficiency not on their usual class list, which of course the clerics can then use to qualify for certain gods, the wizards can use to become proficient with the magic sword they took as their arcane focus, and the rogue can use to get access to an exotic weapon like a pistol bow which isn't necessarily that practical but is certainly stylish.
I'm not disputing what the rules are. What I am doing is positing an alternate rules mechanic which would involve a little less godly mucking inside character's heads, which is good for all sorts of plotlines.
I mean, following the RAW, having a cleric of Erastil going "O Erastil, why hast thou forsaken me?" then pick up a bow, shoot the eye out of woodlouse at 500 paces, and go, "Uh, guess thou hast not forsaken me after all. Nevermind."?
If you want the gods a little more distant, you need to make the origin of the various god's favored weapon proficiencies a bit more secular.
Another is training in the bow as a devotion to Erastil and only after getting good enough with the god's favored weapon that you earn his respect do you get to join the priesthood.
Im leaning the same way, going to house rule that. Anyone wanting to switch deities wont get the new weapon prof either w/o some arduous process.
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Im leaning the same way, going to house rule that. Anyone wanting to switch deities wont get the new weapon prof either w/o some arduous process.Another is training in the bow as a devotion to Erastil and only after getting good enough with the god's favored weapon that you earn his respect do you get to join the priesthood.
Other than the process of winning good graces in the eyes of the new god and turning from the old? That in itself could be a multi-session side quest worse then any atonement.
Other than the process of winning good graces in the eyes of the new god and turning from the old? That in itself could be a multi-session side quest worse then any atonement.Im leaning the same way, going to house rule that. Anyone wanting to switch deities wont get the new weapon prof either w/o some arduous process.Another is training in the bow as a devotion to Erastil and only after getting good enough with the god's favored weapon that you earn his respect do you get to join the priesthood.
Off topic, but its one god who's allied with the player's god who is able to help them with their quest if they convert and their old god is unable to help. Both gods are ailed against a 3rd god so its not that big a process in this case, although its still a process.