I've been on record in other threads as complaining about the inconsistencies regarding armor. The armor chart really hasn't been revamped since 3.0; even then it was a holdover from second edition.
In second edition, the idea was that certain mundane equipment was clearly superior to others; acquisition of this superior equipment was very important. In 3.X, this notion was generally abandoned. Rather, different equipment had different features, but one was equal to another. Weapons are a great example: Within each category (Simple, Light, One-Handed, Two-Handed) each weapon is ostensibly comparable. This has let the weapon chart encompass a wide variety of options and spared us the hundreds of pages of statistics for each minor variation on a medieval weapon that appeared in 2nd Ed. books.
This transfer hasn't really made it to armor. Instead the armor chart remains locked in creating historical variations (most of which have a European feel) between different suits of armor and the only reason characters don't run to the best of each category is the cost.
I'd really like to propose simplifying armor to three types: Light, Medium, and Heavy. Light armor would have no dex penalty but would provide small ac, heavy armor would have skill and dex penalties, but would provide great ac, etc. etc. Knowing that such suggestions are probably not welcome at this point, let me propose this simple rework of the armor chart:
The notion is to make the chart as consistent as the rest of the game's rules:
AC Bonus is the base number, the max dex is equal to 10-AC bonus, and the skill check penalty is equal to the AC bonus -1. Arcane spell failure is equal to the AC bonus x5%. Light armor's skill check penalty is equal 1/2 it's AC Bonus (rounded down), and only heavy armor has a speed penalty.
Leather AC: +1, Max Dex 9, Skill Check Penalty -0
Studded Leather AC: +2, Max Dex 8, Skill Check Penalty -1
Chain Shirt AC: +3, Max Dex 7, Skill Check Penalty -1
Scale Male AC: +4, Max Dex 6, Skill Check Penalty -3
Chain Mail AC: +5, Max Dex 5, Skill Check Penalty -4
Breast Plate AC: +6, Max Dex 4, Skill Check Penalty -5
Banded Mail AC: +7, Max Dex 3, Skill Check Penalty -6
Field Plate AC: +8, Max Dex 2, Skill Check Penalty -7
Full Plate AC: +9, Max Dex 1, Skill Check Penalty -8
Here are the virtues of this system as I see it:
- It's consistent, and no armor is clearly inferior to other choices (hence why I removed Hide Armor).
- It allows characters to have a great deal more customization when it comes to character designs. They weigh the benefits of increased ac against skill penalties.
- It rewards high dexerity bonuses, by letting dextrous characters shed more and more armor to keep their skill penalties down, whether they're Rogue, Fighter or Barbarian.
- It makes Medium Armor relevant again, as now heavy hitters have to weigh slower movement and higher AC against hgiher movement and a better skill-check penalty. It makes a barbarian wearing medium armor worthwhile, rather than seeking out the nearest mithral mine as soon as possible. We won't see rogues running around in medium armor unless they want to give up their class abilities that require light or no armor.
- Backwards compatibility is not a huge issue, since most armors have a corresponding option (and when was the last time you saw an NPC wearing splint mail?).
- While a chain shirt is immediately better than studded leather, this is small enough that a significant cost difference could make a difference for low-level characters (after low levels, the distinction for disappears dramatically for dextrous characters).
I would love to hear thoughts on this matter.
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Overall I have to say I like it very much. It is simple, sublime and easy. I don't see how it would really unbalance anything.
I agree Hide Armor need to stay in. I always liked Barbarians that are clothed in Hide. Could have same stats as Studded Leather, perhaps, with a cheaper cost.
Cost would still factor into purchasing. Plate armor should still cost a small fortune, while Padded should be rather cheap.
Essentially I like it.
Overall I have to say I like it very much. It is simple, sublime and easy. I don't see how it would really unbalance anything.
I agree Hide Armor need to stay in. I always liked Barbarians that are clothed in Hide. Could have same stats as Studded Leather, perhaps, with a cheaper cost.
Cost would still factor into purchasing. Plate armor should still cost a small fortune, while Padded should be rather cheap.
Essentially I like it.
I didn't realize Hide armor had such a following!
I think Hide can be easily rolled in with leather or another category, much like a Greatsword encompasses a Claymore and a Naginata. I'm not sure if there's really that great a distinction and, more importantly, the old rules for Hide Armor made it solely a trap for druids to fall into.
And cost should still be a factor; but it shouldn't be the balancing factor. After 4th level, the mundane cost of armor seems to become exponentially irrelevant.
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Overall I have to say I like it very much. It is simple, sublime and easy. I don't see how it would really unbalance anything.
I agree Hide Armor need to stay in. I always liked Barbarians that are clothed in Hide. Could have same stats as Studded Leather, perhaps, with a cheaper cost.
Cost would still factor into purchasing. Plate armor should still cost a small fortune, while Padded should be rather cheap.
Essentially I like it.
I didn't realize Hide armor had such a following!
I think Hide can be easily rolled in with leather or another category, much like a Greatsword encompasses a Claymore and a Naginata. I'm not sure if there's really that great a distinction and, more importantly, the old rules for Hide Armor made it solely a trap for druids to fall into.
And cost should still be a factor; but it shouldn't be the balancing factor. After 4th level, the mundane cost of armor seems to become exponentially irrelevant.
Hide is needed as a medium armour. Otherwise, a Druid is gimped until he can get special materials. A basic, non-metal medium armour is needed. Might as well be hide.
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Overall I have to say I like it very much. It is simple, sublime and easy. I don't see how it would really unbalance anything.
I agree Hide Armor need to stay in. I always liked Barbarians that are clothed in Hide. Could have same stats as Studded Leather, perhaps, with a cheaper cost.
Cost would still factor into purchasing. Plate armor should still cost a small fortune, while Padded should be rather cheap.
Essentially I like it.
I didn't realize Hide armor had such a following!
I think Hide can be easily rolled in with leather or another category, much like a Greatsword encompasses a Claymore and a Naginata. I'm not sure if there's really that great a distinction and, more importantly, the old rules for Hide Armor made it solely a trap for druids to fall into.
And cost should still be a factor; but it shouldn't be the balancing factor. After 4th level, the mundane cost of armor seems to become exponentially irrelevant.
It's not just that there are alot of fans. If you are eliminating it then a druid is limited to leather armor, since studded having metal studs is a prohibited armor for druids. What other armors do the druids have available? Padded? How is that fair when a barbarian can wear mithril full plate without penalty. A druid has to wait a long time or pay a heavy price to get ironwood armor.
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It's not just that there are alot of fans. If you are eliminating it then a druid is limited to leather armor, since studded having metal studs is a prohibited armor for druids. What other armors do the druids have available? Padded? How is that fair when a barbarian can wear mithril full plate without penalty. A druid has to wait a long time or pay a heavy price to get ironwood armor.Overall I have to say I like it very much. It is simple, sublime and easy. I don't see how it would really unbalance anything.
I agree Hide Armor need to stay in. I always liked Barbarians that are clothed in Hide. Could have same stats as Studded Leather, perhaps, with a cheaper cost.
Cost would still factor into purchasing. Plate armor should still cost a small fortune, while Padded should be rather cheap.
Essentially I like it.
I didn't realize Hide armor had such a following!
I think Hide can be easily rolled in with leather or another category, much like a Greatsword encompasses a Claymore and a Naginata. I'm not sure if there's really that great a distinction and, more importantly, the old rules for Hide Armor made it solely a trap for druids to fall into.
And cost should still be a factor; but it shouldn't be the balancing factor. After 4th level, the mundane cost of armor seems to become exponentially irrelevant.
Actually, there's going to be a clarification that Mithril doesn't change the category as far as proficiency is concerned (thank you!) so the Barbarian would have to burn a feat for that.
Edit: Link
Creative Director
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My primary problem with setting up armor this way is that it sacrifices armor variety in order to make a pretty table and a consistent chart. Both things that'll more or less immediately be lost as soon as anyone makes up a new suit of armor. The reverse implication, that you can't invent new kinds of armor because the table implies that there's no room for other types of armor in the system, is also poor. I'm also not a fan of cutting content from the previous game; hide armor might not be everyone's favorite, but it's important to have in the game if only because it's cool to throw onto NPCs. Not everything in the book needs to be optimized for a player character.
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Creative Director
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You have just illustrated the biggest problem with hide armor. It exists solely because the Druid gets medium armor proficiency but is not allowed to wear metal armor. If they were allowed studded leather (which is mechanically superior to hide), absolutely no one would ever take hide armor (except for the few that did so purely for the sake of affecting an appearance or concept).
I say push back the Druid's medium armor proficiency to a higher level and let them wear studded leather. Hide armor is an awkward patch to a poorly thought out situation and it's about time the situation was properly addressed and this kludge discarded.
Again, I don't see this as a problem. Hide armor's huge advantage, in fact, is that it's very VERY cheap. While I could indeed see fixing its armor bonus (perhaps to +4), it's still a viable option to several classes as a 1st level choice for armor, especially if you're spending all of your starting cash on something expensive like a bow.
And again... it's good armor for NPCs.
I agree with James, increasing Hide's AC sounds like an easy, viable "solution"
that also gives some more distinction between "Hide Armor" and the new "Hide Shirt" Armor.
To tie-in with another thread here, Hide Armor being Medium Armor (with associated Penalites)
could also have associated BENEFITS just for being Medium Armor, possibly including DR.
I'm also not a fan of cutting content from the previous game; hide armor might not be everyone's favorite, but it's important to have in the game if only because it's cool to throw onto NPCs. Not everything in the book needs to be optimized for a player character.
Hide armor is good for lower technology societies as well - boiled leather is fairly straightforward, and layers of animal hide even more so (and something that a PC with ranks in Craft {leatherworking} could make quickly should they wake up and find their gear gone). Put me in the "cool, but not necessarily because of the mechanics" camp for hide armor, and keep it in the book. Just remember to add it to the overview table. :)
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my armor problem is that everyone has a CHAINSHIRT, or Mithral Fullplate. (much less of the later) mobility penalty and armor check are just to nasty for a game that is still stingy with skill points. people dread 20ft moves. the heavier armors need to just be BETTER or else why the F%^K is it feat worthy??????
how about anyone can wear anything, having proficiency lets you keep your typical movement rate and reduces the Armor check penalty by -4 (to a minimum of -1, before masterwork)
Again, I don't see this as a problem. Hide armor's huge advantage, in fact, is that it's very VERY cheap. While I could indeed see fixing its armor bonus (perhaps to +4), it's still a viable option to several classes as a 1st level choice for armor, especially if you're spending all of your starting cash on something expensive like a bow.
And again... it's good armor for NPCs.
But it's cost isn't a huge advantage. For an extra 10 gold, the player can get a suit of armor that has the same armor bonus, a better dex bonus (which, if they're weilding a bow may be very important), no movement penalty, and is easier to take off and put on. That's worth 10 gold at any level.
As for NPCs, giving them subpar equipment is fine if it fits the story. The problem is that right now, most NPCs don't wear hide armor; only those portrayed as "savages" do. Why not simply lump this in with leather armor or provide alternate materials for armors? That way there can be a "Hide Shirt" or a leather shield.
My primary problem with setting up armor this way is that it sacrifices armor variety in order to make a pretty table and a consistent chart. Both things that'll more or less immediately be lost as soon as anyone makes up a new suit of armor. The reverse implication, that you can't invent new kinds of armor because the table implies that there's no room for other types of armor in the system, is also poor. I'm also not a fan of cutting content from the previous game; hide armor might not be everyone's favorite, but it's important to have in the game if only because it's cool to throw onto NPCs. Not everything in the book needs to be optimized for a player character.
I feel you're placing too much emphasis on the names I assigned. Like weapons, in which a Long Sword can cover anything from a Spatha to a Katana, the armor types can represent Celtic chain, a Samurai's armor, or the Aztec bone armor. Make the categories inclusive rather than exclusive. Hide armor and leather armor can be the same thing.
In all my 3.0 and 3.5 materials, there are hardly any new types of armor listed. With a few notable exceptions, most books contain new materials for making the existing suits of armor. Magical or superior armor, even those made from materials like Angels Wings and Demon Skin, are all fitted into an existing suit of armor from the Player's Handbook.
Furthermore, cost can still be a factor. I'm not advocating making all armor cost the same. But right now, on the armor table, only three or four of those armors are being used 95% of the time. Occasionally Hide armor shows up, and for the odd peasant they're wearing Padded armor (although even then, it appears in most published adventures peasants wear no armor or leather), but I never encounter characters, player or otherwise, wearing Splint Mail or Scale Mail. The cost factor isn't enough to make the one point difference worthwile to most players or DMs.
If there's really a need to make some armor clearly superior, that's fine. But the chart as it is pushes players towards one choice in each category, and NPCs tend to end up wearing the same things as they try to compete with the Players.
My primary problem with setting up armor this way is that it sacrifices armor variety in order to make a pretty table and a consistent chart. Both things that'll more or less immediately be lost as soon as anyone makes up a new suit of armor. The reverse implication, that you can't invent new kinds of armor because the table implies that there's no room for other types of armor in the system, is also poor. I'm also not a fan of cutting content from the previous game; hide armor might not be everyone's favorite, but it's important to have in the game if only because it's cool to throw onto NPCs. Not everything in the book needs to be optimized for a player character.
I think that the name tags of the armors may need to be revisited, and perhaps consolidated, but the mechanic behind the bonuses is sound.
Variety is interesting when all have something to offer. I find that the present armors lack variety because the same armors keep being selected over and over again because they are optimum choices.
The chart presented by the OP offers a variety of categories that are interesting to all characters (as in every character will find one suited for him/her rather than all choices being equally good for every character).
And while I agree with the last statement, I also think that everything in the book should have something to do with the characters, either directly or indirectly. The splint mail for example, is rarely use by players (which is OK) but also rarely used by NPCs interacting with the players, which lessen its relevance.
'findel
I have brigandines, which are identical to scale mail in statistics, as they are in fact really made the same way. I use the numbers for padded armor for all characters who wear some kind of protective clothing.
I kicked out chain mail, breatplate, splint mail, and half-plate and replaced them with chain armor, lammelar armor, coat of plates, and plate armor.
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Chain armor
200 gp | +5 | +3 | -4 | 30% | 6m | 35 lb.
Lamellar armor
500 gp | +6 | +2 | -5 | 25% | 6m | 35 lb.
Coat of plates
150 gp | +5 | +2 | -5 | 30% | 6m | 40 lb.
Plate armor
600 gp | +7 | +1 | -6 | 40% | 6m | 45 lb.
Chain mail and splint mail are just awful. Chain mail can be repaired (it was actually very popular armor), but breastplate was actually too good to fit into my new system. I replaced it with lamelar, which is also very good, but much more expansive. The coat of plates has poor statistics, but it also was a very poor armor in reality. But it's cheap (cheaper than splint mail), and might be a choice for poor brigands who are strong enough to wear it. The only thing that spoke for half-plate was it's cheaper price, but as soon as 1,000 gp become irrelevant, it's useles.
I actually prefer these types of armor, though I don't see it adopted for PF.
I recently had the same idea, however Hide armor is also needed for druids as they can't wear armor that isn't organic. AKA non metal armor.
You have just illustrated the biggest problem with hide armor. It exists solely because the Druid gets medium armor proficiency but is not allowed to wear metal armor. If they were allowed studded leather (which is mechanically superior to hide), absolutely no one would ever take hide armor (except for the few that did so purely for the sake of affecting an appearance or concept).
I say push back the Druid's medium armor proficiency to a higher level and let them wear studded leather. Hide armor is an awkward patch to a poorly thought out situation and it's about time the situation was properly addressed and this kludge discarded.
Again, I don't see this as a problem. Hide armor's huge advantage, in fact, is that it's very VERY cheap. While I could indeed see fixing its armor bonus (perhaps to +4), it's still a viable option to several classes as a 1st level choice for armor, especially if you're spending all of your starting cash on something expensive like a bow.
And again... it's good armor for NPCs.
I am sorry, but you are completely underrating the -10ft to movement, and more ACP, for a point of AC
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...The notion is to make the chart as consistent as the rest of the game's rules...
I would like one small caveat - the heavy mobility and skill penalties for wearing heavier armor types and the penalties to some class abilities imposed by heavier armor types lead me to the conclusion that medium armor should be obviously better than light with regard to armor bonus vs. max dex, and heavy armor again should have some noticably higher bonuses than medium armor. Or (my preference) those penalties should be lessened or removed by going up in level, gaining a certain feat, or training well in a particular skill.
(Knights rode horses well. But by the rules, a knight in full plate has significant penalties that gives fighters and paladins with 2 skill points per level some serious problems until a very high level.)
(Knights rode horses well. But by the rules, a knight in full plate has significant penalties that gives fighters and paladins with 2 skill points per level some serious problems until a very high level.)
Ugh. I forgot that Pathfinder applies your Armor Check Penalty to the Ride skill (which is a useless change from 3.5).
I recently had the same idea, however Hide armor is also needed for druids as they can't wear armor that isn't organic. AKA non metal armor.
Another throwback rule for armor that I imagine we're stuck with. It's better than the alternative: Druids in platemail.
Druids in my games always seek out "natural" armor materials from the Arms and Equipment Guide, Draconomicon, etc. that allow them to wear and use more non-magical equipment.I don't know if there's a place for it in the PRPG beyond what's been contained in the DMG, but I do hope Pathfinder introduces more dynamic materials to make armor out of.
I find one of the best ways to differentiate armor is not the type, AC bonus, or magical abilities, but the materials from which it is made. It is a great flavor effect and really helps players bond to their equipment.
I would like one small caveat - the heavy mobility and skill penalties for wearing heavier armor types and the penalties to some class abilities imposed by heavier armor types lead me to the conclusion that medium armor should be obviously better than light with regard to armor bonus vs. max dex, and heavy armor again should have some noticably higher bonuses than medium armor. Or (my preference) those penalties should be lessened or removed by going up in level, gaining a certain feat, or training well in a particular skill.
I don't know if I'd say medium armor should be "obviously better," but it is definitely in need of a revamp. The only medium armor players want to wear is Mithral Breastplate, and even then that's when they're a Barbarian. NPCs may wear inferior gear, and that's fine. But as a DM, if I make a decision to put an NPC in medium armor, it's often accompanied by the thought that I am purposefully underpowering them for flavor purposes. I'd like to have some good choices from the medium armor category.
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Leather AC: +1, Max Dex 9, Skill Check Penalty -0
Studded Leather AC: +2, Max Dex 8, Skill Check Penalty -1
Chain Shirt AC: +3, Max Dex 7, Skill Check Penalty -1Scale Male AC: +4, Max Dex 6, Skill Check Penalty -3
Chain Mail AC: +5, Max Dex 5, Skill Check Penalty -4
Breast Plate AC: +6, Max Dex 4, Skill Check Penalty -5Banded Mail AC: +7, Max Dex 3, Skill Check Penalty -6
Field Plate AC: +8, Max Dex 2, Skill Check Penalty -7
Full Plate AC: +9, Max Dex 1, Skill Check Penalty -8
I shall elucidate for you. In your table above, you forgot a couple of important stats. Among them is the movement rate of the one wearing said armor.
the jump from 30' of movement to 20' is a HUGE issue for those wearing medium armor. That is a large disadvantage. Add to that that the wearer cannot get a better overall bonus to their armor class than they would get for switching to a high dex light armor wearing character, and you pretty much say "Be a high dex light armored character...or suck."
For example, if I have a dexterity of 22 (modifier 6), it is absolutely positively worth -1 AC to gain that extra 10' of movement. I think you're crazy if you're not willing to do that. The mobility change from medium to heavy is not such a huge deal for me. If you're running in a fight, you've got bigger issues than your armor class.
In order to mitigate this severe disadvantage, maybe a slight tweak would be worthwhile:
Leather AC: +1, Max Dex 9, Skill Check Penalty -0
Studded Leather AC: +2, Max Dex 8, Skill Check Penalty -1
Chain Shirt AC: +3, Max Dex 7, Skill Check Penalty -2
Scale Male AC: +5, Max Dex 6, Skill Check Penalty -3
Chain Mail AC: +6, Max Dex 5, Skill Check Penalty -4
Breast Plate AC: +7, Max Dex 4, Skill Check Penalty -5
Banded Mail AC: +8, Max Dex 3, Skill Check Penalty -6
Field Plate AC: +9, Max Dex 2, Skill Check Penalty -7
Full Plate AC: +10, Max Dex 1, Skill Check Penalty -8
Thoughts? Point? Counterpoint?
[Note] I wasn’t too sure if this should have its own thread. Willi, feel free to kick me out if this feel like threadjacking to you…
Out of the 12 armors proposed, only three or four are used frequently, and even then, their mithral counterparts are still optimal. While this does not cause a problem that breaks the game per say, it’s a poor use of one of the fundamental elements of medieval-fantasy…
The armor distribution proposed here is an attempt to correct that: offer a broader variety of armors to players and NPCs alike without mitigating their AC to much.
1) Consolidation
While many armor types should exist, they need not all have their separate entry with associated bonuses. This would also have the advantage to easily include other armors that are presently not in the game but existed in antiquity/dark ages/middle-age/renaissance eras (or wherever you take your inspiration), like the ring mail and brigandine to name only two.
2) Cheaper, not-as-good armors should exist.
Should it be only for NPCs and low-technology campaigns, let’s keep the present principle that for each category, one armor is sub-optimal but available at a lower cost. However, let’s not include the opposite; that one set of armor for each category is just better for those who can produce the extra coins. This is already represented by the masterwork and special material templates.
3) Speed Reduction
Probably the proposition that will meet the most resistance: get rid of the speed reduction for every armor category. Instead, cap maximum speed for medium armor at run x3 (and possibly retrograde heavy armors to double move?).
Other than making the choice of light vs. heavy armors more organic, this will give the fighter, cleric and other “heavies” a bit more mobility on the battlefield, which may not be a bad thing in terms of gameplay IMO. Speed is still considered with encumbrance.
Complication: “but surely my unarmored rogue should be able to outrun those chainmail clad city guards?”
Not on the tactical scale, but don’t forget that you can run x4 and that they can only go as far as x3, so you’ll outrun them alright (unless the guards are barbarians, in which case you should probably try to outsmart them instead…)
4) Give medium armors some love
While the speed adjustment will go a long way, a net increase of +1 AC for the medium armor category should put them back on the map.
5) Redistribute the Max DEX bonuses
As many have proposed earlier, keep the total AC bonus + Max DEX bonus consistent. Why? So that mid DEX characters may not be penalized too much; they’ll have to pay extra and possibly take an extra feat, but their AC can be on par with uber dextrous ninjas…
... so we get this:
Armor _______ Cost ____ AC Bonus _ Max DEX _ Check Pen _ Arcane Failure
Light Armors
Leather/Padded armor ______ 5 gp ____ +2 ____ +6 ____ -0 ____ 10%
Studded Leather / Ring mail _ 15 gp ____ +3 ____ +5 ____ -1 ____ 15%
Chain Shirt / Scale mail ____100 gp ____ +4 ____ +4 ____ -2 ____ 20%
Medium Armors
Hide/Leather scale ________ 25 gp ____ +4 ____ +4 ____ -3 ____ 25%
Chainmail/Banded mail ____ 200 gp ____ +5 ____ +3 ____ -4 ____ 30%
Breastplate _____________ 400 gp ____ +6 ____ +2 ____ -5 ____ 35%
Heavy Armors
Half-plate / Chain Hauberk _ 300 gp ____ +6 ____ +2 ____ -6 ____ 40%
Feild Plate ______________ 600 gp ____ +7 ____ +1 ____ -7 ____ 45%
Full Plate ______________ 1500 gp ____ +8 ____ +0 ____ -8 ____ 50%
Complication: “but every decent fighter has at least DEX 12 and many manage to have 14 by the time they reach a level where they have that kind of money to spend on armor. Why would they choose the more sophisticated, better fitted, more expensive full-plate?
Hum, that is a problem, and while I have many solutions in mind, I haven’t settled on one particular option. Either give a +1 Max DEX all across the table, or revisit point 5) are the simplest without adding or modifying previous rules, such as masterwork benefits or including “superior steel” as a new special material 1 step down from mithral…
Any comment is welcome
'findel
the jump from 30' of movement to 20' is a HUGE issue for those wearing medium armor. That is a large disadvantage. Add to that that the wearer cannot get a better overall bonus to their armor class than they would get for switching to a high dex light armor wearing character, and you pretty much say "Be a high dex light armored character...or suck."
I couldn't agree more. If medium armor's speed penalty were reduced or elminated, I think it would become MUCH more relevant. Heavy hitters could choose between a higher AC and more movement. The choice could be made by the player or DM depending on the PC or NPC. Tactics for dealing with heavy armor wearing opponents would be different than those wearing medium armor. Light armor would still be the province of Rogues and Rangers, who likely would not want to give up most of their class skills.
I would still like to see the numbers tweaked, but I think the speed issue is one of the fundamental flaws of the armor chart as it is currently written.
1) Consolidation
This makes perfect sense to me. Historically, there multitudinous types of armor with infinite variations. There's no reason to create rules for them all; general abstractions for different types of armor are a great idea.
2) Cheaper, not-as-good armors should exist.
That's fine with me, if this is a part of the game that the designers fee is important. While it may only be relevant to characters at lower levels, it can make sense for equipping NPCs. The cost differences shouldn't be such where the only balancing factor between Platemail and Splint Mail is 500 gp, when Platemail is clearly superior. Cost should be one part of an overall balancing scheme, where there's a reason after 4th level to look at something other than Platemail for a fighter, cleric or paladin.
3) Speed Reduction
I would keep heavy armor at 20', because it's both realistic and makes heavy armor a trade-off. Medium armor with normal speed and 3x run modifier sounds very good, because it means tactically medium armor allows more mobility and on a large scale the heavier armors still can't move as quickly as the lighter ones.
4) Give medium armors some love
Medium armor definitely needs something to revamp the category. I think an increase in speed, some tweaking of the numbers, and making it cost-efficient will do a lot to make it more tempting.
5) Redistribute the Max DEX bonuses
This could certainly help. I think a lot of good people have already commented on this, so there's not much more I can add. I like dextrous fighters being able to shed more and more armor to keep up that AC, and I also like them having to balance out their flat-footed AC and their touch AC. That's something players can do depending on specific quests and adventures.
I would like to see some adjustments to the standard medium and heavy armors so that there isn't an armor that is superior to any single one in every category.
For the light armors the less expensive armors may provide less of a armor bonus, but they have a higher maximum dexterity bonus, lower armor check penalty, lower arcane failure chance, and lower weight than more expensive armors in the core list.
This seems to start to go away with the medium armors and with things like chainmail versus breastplate. They both have the same armor bonus, but chainmail has a lower maximum dexterity bonus, higher armor check penalty, higher arcane failure chance, and higher weight. It has no advantage that would make a character want it aside from it fitting the characters style.
I might think raising the maximum dexterity bonus, lowering the arcane failure chance, and lowering the armor check penalty for cheaper armors (maybe reduce arcane failure chance for hide to 10% and increase maximum dexterity to +5, and adjust splint mail to a max dex of +2 and an arcane failure chance of 20% for example) would at least be some reason for them to remain for some characters without messing with backwards compatibility as much as if armor bonuses were changed, since most of these changes don't effect many characters, but they still give some advantage over other armors.
Why can't Medium Armour reduce movement by 5ft.?
Light -- no change
Medium -- reduce movement by 5ft.
Heavy -- reduce movement by 10ft.
I see a lot of great ideas here, I only wonder if Jason is even going to consider this; which I wish he does.
For what its worth, I don't think I've ever seen a PC wear anything other than a mithril full plate, mithril breastplate, mithril chain shirt, and hide (druids). I suspect this to be the case even with the coming changes to mithril.
Mithril makes studded leather, leather, and padded armor totally obsolete as soon as a PC is able to spend 1100g on armor.
As soon as a PC can afford a set of full plate (1650g), all heavy armor except for full plate becomes blatantly sub-optimal, even foolish to use.
A similar case exists for medium armor, as scale mail and chain mail are useless as soon as the PC can afford breastplate (200g!).
This isn't a problem for me honestly. Though, if nothing is done about armor, we should at least consider saving some page space.
Why can't Medium Armour reduce movement by 5ft.?
Light -- no change
Medium -- reduce movement by 5ft.
Heavy -- reduce movement by 10ft.
It's not "X ft.," it's a movement category. I think we should ditch the movement penalty for medium armor to be honest. Armor check penalty and arcane spell failure are enough motivation to stay away from.
Since we already have Light/Medium/Heavy Tiers with specified ACP/Arcane/Movement penalties, (i.e. it wouldn't ADD complexity)
I don't see any problem with making the Medium Tier Movement Penalty more "contiguous" i.e. half the Move Penalty as Heavy.
Two thumbs up.
My primary problem with setting up armor this way is that it sacrifices armor variety in order to make a pretty table and a consistent chart. Both things that'll more or less immediately be lost as soon as anyone makes up a new suit of armor. The reverse implication, that you can't invent new kinds of armor because the table implies that there's no room for other types of armor in the system, is also poor. I'm also not a fan of cutting content from the previous game; hide armor might not be everyone's favorite, but it's important to have in the game if only because it's cool to throw onto NPCs. Not everything in the book needs to be optimized for a player character.
I share sentiments with the thread starter and James Jacobs. Especially the desire to keep things easy for the player, to rework fabric armors to make them more desirable(as they were in our own history) and to preserve the 3.0 or 3.5 identity of the game which is the entire point right?
I feel that one way to achieve all goals is to stretch the patterns within the current system. which creates places for those new armor ideas and room for a touch of reality. Its like increasing the scale of a model, Its still the same model. You just see more of the detail.
For example, if you consider Padded to be 1 layer, leather 2 layers, and hide 3 layers. then you have just increased the detail of the model to make room for a 3 layer cloth and padding armor with roughly the same stats as Hide. And following on that model you can extrapolate even further 4, 5 or even 6 layers. I wouldn't do more personally, since 6 layers of padding is within the realm of historical example.
which would be more like.. multiple layers of cloth and stuffing, with a facing of stag's skin, leather or hide. These were actually very popular and effective armors.
Example from another thread: Another Thread
-Fabric Armor-
This is an expansion of the three known D&D fabric armors in a way that is easily adaptable by any player, and allows for a historic feel and detail without changing the existing rules in the slightest.
*note that every 5 layers of cloth = 1 layer of heavier materials*
Light - - - - - - - Medium - - - - - - - Heavy
5-10 of fabric ____ 15-20 layers _______ 25-30 layers
1-2 of stuffing ___ 3-4 layers _________ 5-6 layers
1-2 of leather ____ 3-4 layers _________ 5-6 layers
1-2 of hide _______ 3-4 layers _________ 5-6 layers
(1 Layers) - - - - - - - - - armor - max - check - - arcane
Light - - - - - - - cost - - bonus - dex - penalty - failure - weight
padded ____________ 5g _____ +1 ____ +8 __ -0 ______ 5% ______ 10
leather ___________ 5g _____ +1 ____ +8 __ -0 ______ 5% ______ 10
hide ______________ 5g _____ +1 ____ +8 __ -1 ______ 10% _____ 10
(2 Layers) - - - - - - - - - armor - max - check - - arcane
Light - - - - - - - cost - - bonus - dex - penalty - failure - weight
padded ____________ 10g ____ +2 ____ +6 __ -1 ______ 10% _____ 20
leather ___________ 10g ____ +2 ____ +6 __ -0 ______ 10% _____ 15
hide ______________ 10g ____ +2 ____ +6 __ -2 ______ 15% _____ 15
(3 Layers) - - - - - - - - - armor - max - check - - arcane
Medium- - - - - - - cost - - bonus - dex - penalty - failure - weight
padded ____________ 15g ____ +3 ____ +4 __ -2 ______ 15% _____ 30
leather ___________ 15g ____ +3 ____ +4 __ -1 ______ 15% _____ 25
hide ______________ 15g ____ +3 ____ +4 __ -3 ______ 20% _____ 25
The historic Charles VI garment is one example of a historical fabric armor with seven layers of cloth and with two layers of raw cotton wool as stuffing. It is layered like this:
2 layers of linen
1 layer of cotton wool
2 layers of linen
1 layer of cotton wool
2 layers of linen
1 layer of silk brocade
When cross referenced with the fabric armor charts it comes out as a piece of cloth armor the equivalent of our current Hide armor (3 layers hide)
I can see arguments for or against this, but historically, its on point.
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Not trying to hijack the thread. I agree with the concept of making things easier for the player and preserving the integrity? of the 3.0 3.5 system.
Plate mail, which is mail with plates added in critical places, is heavier than mail. Full plate, such as first appeared in the mid-15th c, is lighter than mail and less restrictive.
A double-curved plate is far stronger than an equivalent weight of metal drawn into wire and rivetted into rings. It is also far easier and quicker to make once the skill and forge design for evenly heating large plates were developed.
An apprentice armorer would spend 200-300 man-days making a head-to-knee mail hauberk. One can learn to make mail in a few months, and can make it with the most primitive hearth and tools.
Contrast this to 30-40 man-days for making head-to-toe plate. Making plate took years for the armorer to perfect and required advanced forge technology. Only the lining and finishing could be done by apprentices.
I like the idea of a standard scale. But if the total Dex and Armor bonus is the same between light, medium and heavy armor, then it effectively removes the advantage of having all the feats for a fighter class.
While not every character will have a dex high enough to take full advantage of leather, most melee types will have enough dex at higher levels to make it so that there is no real advantage of heavy over medium and there is actually a penalty to using heavy with movement and cost.
So as it stands on your chart, light armor has a max of +10 AC from armor and dex possible. Medium and heavy are +10 as well. I would suggest that Light be +9 or +10, medium be +10 or +11, and heavy be a max of +11 or +12. This would provide a reason to have three feats invested in heavy armor over the one feat for light armor.
Overall I like the idea of the light armors capping as an AC+Dex max of +10. Medium armors cap at +10 as well, but with higher AC the players with a lower Dex will find advantage in using this armor. Finally, heavy armor will cap at AC+Dex max of +11. One point better then medium to offset the slower movement and cost issues.
I like the idea of a standard scale. But if the total Dex and Armor bonus is the same between light, medium and heavy armor, then it effectively removes the advantage of having all the feats for a fighter class.
While not every character will have a dex high enough to take full advantage of leather, most melee types will have enough dex at higher levels to make it so that there is no real advantage of heavy over medium and there is actually a penalty to using heavy with movement and cost.
So as it stands on your chart, light armor has a max of +10 AC from armor and dex possible. Medium and heavy are +10 as well. I would suggest that Light be +9 or +10, medium be +10 or +11, and heavy be a max of +11 or +12. This would provide a reason to have three feats invested in heavy armor over the one feat for light armor.
Overall I like the idea of the light armors capping as an AC+Dex max of +10. Medium armors cap at +10 as well, but with higher AC the players with a lower Dex will find advantage in using this armor. Finally, heavy armor will cap at AC+Dex max of +11. One point better then medium to offset the slower movement and cost issues.
That's a fair point. I see the balance of the chart appearing in a number of ways:
1) Heavy armor lets a character not focus on Dexterity while still keeping their AC on par with those who do. It lets someone with a Heavy Armor Prof. spend money on magic items that boost Constitution, Deflection, etc. etc. without losing out to Dextrous characters who currently would recieve a higher AC.
2) Nonetheless, characters who raise their Dex are rewarded by using armor that allows faster movement and has less of a skill-check penalty. It's easier to buy better armor than raise one's Dexterity, so this still isn't the route most characters will go (at least right away).
3) Fighter benefits and improved armor usage not only lessen the skill-check penalty but also raise the max dex. Thus, a fighter with a decent dexterity in platemail will have a higher AC than other characters on the chart. It rewards a person for playing a fighter!
A final thing to point out is I have never seen a character take an armor proficiency feat, aside from Armored Spell-Caster. Most classes that don't get heavy armor prof from the get-go don't take it, either because it's not worth it or it would defeat a number of their class features. Scaling up the armor chart simply isn't a big issue for characters, so my concern is less of encouraging players to spend the feat. Instead, it's rewarding those classes that start off with the proficiency.
With all that being said, I do think there is something to making heavy armors have a higher AC bonus overall than light. I'm keen on making armor something desireable rather than a stop-gap until magic does it better.
how about anyone can wear anything, having proficiency lets you keep your typical movement rate and reduces the Armor check penalty by -4 (to a minimum of -1, before masterwork)
That, sir, is an excellent idea.
You know, when you put it that way, armor in D&D comes to look pretty strange. Thinking about it, someone naked and extremely dexterous is as well protected as someone in chain mail with a shield -- I suppose it's for game balance, but it IS an odd notion.
It makes sense within the hit point concept.
Even if we accept that armor isn't that restrictive, the naked guy would be more mobile than the guy in armour. Except that when the naked guy finally gets hit, it will be a much nastier wound than the protected guy. If you accept that many small wounds equals a single big one, as understood by the hit point system, it comes out to be the same.
'findel
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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You know, when you put it that way, armor in D&D comes to look pretty strange. Thinking about it, someone naked and extremely dexterous is as well protected as someone in chain mail with a shield -- I suppose it's for game balance, but it IS an odd notion.
Well, given the fact that chain mail + shield would be +7 AC, you'd be talking about someone with a +7 DEX bonus, or 24 Dexterity. That's FAR beyond the realm of normal human capability, so it SHOULD be something more-or-less like the Matrix with the character dodging blows with preternatural grace.
Also, the guy with a +7 DEX modifier to AC can still be caught flat-footed. The chain mail-and-shield guy will always have that bulwark of metal between him and the enemy (assuming he isn't caught naked, of course).
Well, given the fact that chain mail + shield would be +7 AC, you'd be talking about someone with a +7 DEX bonus, or 24 Dexterity. That's FAR beyond the realm of normal human capability, so it SHOULD be something more-or-less like the Matrix with the character dodging blows with preternatural grace.
Also, the guy with a +7 DEX modifier to AC can still be caught flat-footed. The chain mail-and-shield guy will always have that bulwark of metal between him and the enemy (assuming he isn't caught naked, of course).
And that's the idea behind this chart: Extremely dextrous characters can choose to keep a very high touch AC and wear less armor as a reward for having a high dexterity. It's much more cost-effective to wear heavier armor than it is to boost your actual dexterity, and even a "naked" character with an 18 Dex is still going to have a 14 AC.
Flat-footed AC remains a risk for these characters, but less of a concern for the heavily armored characters. They have to watch their touch AC. With the chart I've proposed, characters can scale up and down different armor types to match not only their Dex Bonus, but to try and strike a balance between their touch AC and their flat-footed ACs. Do they max one and minimize the other? Do they go for a balance? Ideally, players would wear different armors depending on whether they're fighting rogues or wizards.
Of course, once PCs get rings of protection, etc. etc. they can start to boost both flat-footed and touch ACs. That's the case now, so I don't think it changes my proposed dynamic too greatly.
We've been playtesting this idea a lot and it's been working out well. My players like having to look at armor and make choices again, rather than all wearing Chainshirt/Platemail.
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You know, some of these systems actaully make it reasonable for me to put my Armor Training Ability of the fighter into medium armors. If i have 16/18 dex, i can take a medium Armor, train in it, and have better armor than heavy armor. This is the niche' of medium armor. conversly, i can just apply armor traing to Full plate from the git go and wait for the day i can get a set of mythril full plate+2 to get my full dex bonus.(not unlike the favored enemy ability of the ranger.)
At this point i like the original system, but a couple of you have been to close in a new system. The problem is the 'perfect 1=1 scaling'. mix it up, give armors diferent advantages. you have Weight, armor, dex, movement, and price, which is important at low levels, and at high levels, ac/dex is. If you don't then the same old system will apply.
And for goodness sake, don't write any table in if you are not going to include Hide. There are to many people that want it for it to hit the dusty trail. They want it to be a medium armor, make it a medium armor. you are waisting breath debating the use of a single word. it doesn't effct mechanics at all. add it anywhere. make it the second best medium armor, make it the worst. i don't care, it is a mute point. like which bullet would hurt more if you were shot with it (they all would reeeaalllly hurt.)